Warptime

[caboosebe]

Had a grand discussion on CSM codex about warptime.

The rules state: "the psyker may re-roll ALL rolls to hit and rolls to wound".

You probably see where I'm getting at. We do not re-roll failed ones, if we choose to re-roll, we must re-roll ALL our dices, even the good ones. This makes Warptime a lot more ineffective then it seems.

 

Been searching on the forum, and there have been some discussions, but all with a diffrent outcome. Some say only failed ones, others say all.

So a bit confused here at the moment. Do we re-rolled failed ones as stated in rulebook "pick up the ones you wish to re-roll" or do we re-roll all?

[JamesI]

The BRB states when you have to reroll dice, you pick the ones you wish to reroll, that's good enough for me and everyone I've ever faced. No one would pay those points for somethign that required you to reroll every die.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

No other rule in 40K punishes successful rolls; I say it's only failures that get re-rolled, and you accept the results of the re-roll just like every other rules that forces a re-roll.

[The Shadowlord]

The Warptime Re-roll is one of those strange rules. It's like Smoke Launchers vs PotMS in that threads about it never seem to manage to find a definite answer, and it all comes down to how you and your gaming group see it.

 

I personally would play it as failed rolls are re-rolled, as like Khestra said, there's no other rule (that I know of, anyway) that punishes successful rolls. If I was asked to pay X points for a power that could leave me with less successful hits and wounds than I would've had, then I wouldn't buy it, nobody would, there'd be little point in taking the risk.

 

As it stands, discuss it with your gaming group and see what they say, reminding them that if they argue that even successful rolls are re-rolled, you'll be forced to resort to using the Lash of Submission on your psykers instead :)

[Shas'o R'Vre]

The rules state: "the psyker may re-roll ALL rolls to hit and rolls to wound".

You probably see where I'm getting at. We do not re-roll failed ones, if we choose to re-roll, we must re-roll ALL our dices, even the good ones. This makes Warptime a lot more ineffective then it seems.

No. You are missing a key part of the RAW.

 

"The Psyker MAY re-roll ALL rolls to hit and rolls to wound"

 

RAW, he can choose to re-roll all rolls to hit and wound, but the wording means he can choose to re-roll anywhere from no dice to all his dice. So we COULD choose to re-roll passed ones, but I honestly cannot think of anywhere that would be helpful.

 

If he was only able to re-roll ALL or NONE of his dice, it would be worded "MUST" rather than "MAY", or would state that dice "MUST" be re-rolled. That is how it is worded in every forced re-roll rule I can find.

 

What is more interesting is the WT and WoC arguement. Because whilst "wounding on a 4+" is strictly "rolling to wound", it is worded differently from a "roll to wound". Personally, I say you can re-roll WoC until I see an FAQ that says "no".

 

[Edit] Clarity

[Brother Nathan]

well if you dont want to ompleately kill what you are fighting when you charge you ay want to reroll a hit or 2 just to be safe...

[Shas'o R'Vre]

well if you dont want to ompleately kill what you are fighting when you charge you ay want to reroll a hit or 2 just to be safe...

Not sure when I'd want to NOT kill something, and if I didn't, why I'd be charging a Close-Combat monster into them.

[The Shadowlord]

well if you dont want to ompleately kill what you are fighting when you charge you ay want to reroll a hit or 2 just to be safe...

Not sure when I'd want to NOT kill something, and if I didn't, why I'd be charging a Close-Combat monster into them.

 

Because you need them dead before the end of the game? There are times (only few, but times nonetheless) where winning a close combat and wiping out the enemy in his own turn is more beneficial. That way your turn is directly afterwards and you can move into cover or line up another charge. Winning in your turn can mean you get rapid-fired or otherwise blasted to death by whatever's near you at the time.

[Brother Nathan]

exactly. say theres the remanants of a tactical squad in range of assault and nothing else, and a sternguard squad behind it. now you may want to kill the squad, but if you do it in your turn youll get rapid fired at with ap3 weapons. so if you reduce your kill ability in your turn you aint a sitting duck. granted its not fool proof but it certainly can have its merrits when used at the right time...

[Brother Nihm]

So we COULD choose to re-roll passed ones, but I honestly cannot think of anywhere that would be helpful.

When you want him to stay in combat for another round, hopefully ending the combat in your enemy's turn.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

say theres the remanants of a tactical squad in range of assault and nothing else, and a sternguard squad behind it. now you may want to kill the squad, but if you do it in your turn youll get rapid fired at with ap3 weapons. so if you reduce your kill ability in your turn you aint a sitting duck. granted its not fool proof but it certainly can have its merrits when used at the right time...

Ok, I see your point, but I can't think of any situation that I would ever end up like that. My Daemon Prince tends to be behind cover/my Land Raider until my Melta-Rhinos pop a transport with a big unit, then offload a Raider full of Zerks and a DP into it. I tend to eat it over a turn or two, by which time most other threats are engaging my troops or dead or footslogging it to get into combat (and therefore forefitting shooting)

[Hellios]

say theres the remanants of a tactical squad in range of assault and nothing else, and a sternguard squad behind it. now you may want to kill the squad, but if you do it in your turn youll get rapid fired at with ap3 weapons. so if you reduce your kill ability in your turn you aint a sitting duck. granted its not fool proof but it certainly can have its merrits when used at the right time...

Ok, I see your point, but I can't think of any situation that I would ever end up like that. My Daemon Prince tends to be behind cover/my Land Raider until my Melta-Rhinos pop a transport with a big unit, then offload a Raider full of Zerks and a DP into it. I tend to eat it over a turn or two, by which time most other threats are engaging my troops or dead or footslogging it to get into combat (and therefore forefitting shooting)

 

So you win every game you play?

 

You have much to learn young grasshopper but in time you will be mighty warrior...

[caboosebe]

Although the topic changed to the use of staying in Close Combat :D, I still want to thank all for clearing out my question :P

[Shas'o R'Vre]

So you win every game you play?

 

You have much to learn young grasshopper but in time you will be mighty warrior...

Oh no, far from it!

 

I'm not saying my tactics are vastly superior and let me win all the time, oh no. In fact, until very recently I lost most of the time. What I am TRYING (and failing) to say is that whilst I can see the merits of doing this, I have never needed to use this, and because of the way I play my units, will probably not need to.

 

And whilst I may be young (in both body and hobby), I'd like to think that I can hold my own against some of you grizzled veterans. Maybe not win, but give you a run for your money...

[Hellios]

So you win every game you play?

 

You have much to learn young grasshopper but in time you will be mighty warrior...

Oh no, far from it!

 

I'd like to think

 

This is why you fail! You must not think that you can hold your own but know you can! Clear all doubt and follow the path to victory *BLAH BLAH BLAH* darkside *BLAH BLAH BLAH* death star *BLAH BLAH BLAH* you will be undefeatable!

 

I wasn't meaning to sound like a dick :P I was just meaning that just because you have needed to do it... one day you might... unless you do actually win every game in which case I'm going to hide in the corner with some cookies... also I wanted to me a wise asian gentleman.

[TheDarkApostle]

The rules state: "the psyker may re-roll ALL rolls to hit and rolls to wound".

You probably see where I'm getting at. We do not re-roll failed ones, if we choose to re-roll, we must re-roll ALL our dices, even the good ones. This makes Warptime a lot more ineffective then it seems.

No. You are missing a key part of the RAW.

 

"The Psyker MAY re-roll ALL rolls to hit and rolls to wound"

 

RAW, he can choose to re-roll all rolls to hit and wound, but the wording means he can choose to re-roll anywhere from no dice to all his dice. So we COULD choose to re-roll passed ones, but I honestly cannot think of anywhere that would be helpful.

 

If he was only able to re-roll ALL or NONE of his dice, it would be worded "MUST" rather than "MAY", or would state that dice "MUST" be re-rolled. That is how it is worded in every forced re-roll rule I can find.

 

What is more interesting is the WT and WoC arguement. Because whilst "wounding on a 4+" is strictly "rolling to wound", it is worded differently from a "roll to wound". Personally, I say you can re-roll WoC until I see an FAQ that says "no".

 

[Edit] Clarity

Hmm, that IS an interesting take on the rule, and one I'm fully able to accept as well.

 

TDA

[caboosebe]

The rules state: "the psyker may re-roll ALL rolls to hit and rolls to wound".

You probably see where I'm getting at. We do not re-roll failed ones, if we choose to re-roll, we must re-roll ALL our dices, even the good ones. This makes Warptime a lot more ineffective then it seems.

No. You are missing a key part of the RAW.

 

"The Psyker MAY re-roll ALL rolls to hit and rolls to wound"

 

RAW, he can choose to re-roll all rolls to hit and wound, but the wording means he can choose to re-roll anywhere from no dice to all his dice. So we COULD choose to re-roll passed ones, but I honestly cannot think of anywhere that would be helpful.

 

If he was only able to re-roll ALL or NONE of his dice, it would be worded "MUST" rather than "MAY", or would state that dice "MUST" be re-rolled. That is how it is worded in every forced re-roll rule I can find.

 

What is more interesting is the WT and WoC arguement. Because whilst "wounding on a 4+" is strictly "rolling to wound", it is worded differently from a "roll to wound". Personally, I say you can re-roll WoC until I see an FAQ that says "no".

 

[Edit] Clarity

Hmm, that IS an interesting take on the rule, and one I'm fully able to accept as well.

 

TDA

 

 

The problem is , depending on what word you put the intonation on, the meaning becomes different. Sounds like Tzeentch made this rule.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

I wasn't meaning to sound like a dick :P

You didn't, but I didn't want to sound presumptuous.

 

I was just meaning that just because you have needed to do it... one day you might... unless you do actually win every game in which case I'm going to hide in the corner with some cookies... also I wanted to me a wise asian gentleman.

Point taken, but to be a wise asian gentleman you need a long white beard down to the ankles :D

 

And my take is simply based on the fact that it says "may" rather than "must", and that is how all "choice" re-rolls are worded (newer Codecies seem to be more accurate on what can be re-rolled)

[caboosebe]

I wasn't meaning to sound like a dick :)

And my take is simply based on the fact that it says "may" rather than "must", and that is how all "choice" re-rolls are worded (newer Codecies seem to be more accurate on what can be re-rolled)

 

But you can still read it as: you MAY choose to re-roll, you are not obligated to re-roll. But if you do re-roll, you must re-roll ALL the dice.

Like I said, I can see you're point too, it's just a matter of how you read it.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

But you can still read it as: you MAY choose to re-roll, you are not obligated to re-roll. But if you do re-roll, you must re-roll ALL the dice.

You misunderstand. The May vs Must arguement is based on the fact that every instance I can find of "May re-roll [all dice]" allows you to re-roll any dice you like. Every instance I can find of "must" requires the re-roll of ALL dice (albeit usually conforming to a certain criteria)

[caboosebe]

True, and I believe you. But being the only Chaos player in the club, it's hard to defend rules like this. I'm just pointing out how the other think of it.

[Hellios]

True, and I believe you. But being the only Chaos player in the club, it's hard to defend rules like this. I'm just pointing out how the other think of it.

 

find re-roll rules they use... if the same wording applies... apply it to them!

[Shas'o R'Vre]

True, and I believe you. But being the only Chaos player in the club, it's hard to defend rules like this. I'm just pointing out how the other think of it.

 

find re-roll rules they use... if the same wording applies... apply it to them!

Or just point out how stupid Warptime would be if you played it like that. It'd be pointless, and not worth it's cost. Then they will accept the correct ruling. Hopefully in the next Codex we'll get some better worded rules.

[caboosebe]

Or just point out how stupid Warptime would be if you played it like that. It'd be pointless, and not worth it's cost. Then they will accept the correct ruling. Hopefully in the next Codex we'll get some better worded rules.

They find Chaos stupid in general -.-