fighting nids with blood angels

[Dusktiger]

so i've run into a snag here. a recent addition to our gaming group plays bugs. and i've just started playing a blood angels army, so im having trouble coming up with tactics on how to fight him (normally played as salamanders).

He got into the game for the painting and modeling aspect, so he made only one army list and he's set on not changing it. bonus for me i guess, since ill always know what he takes.

 

so i happen to have both his 1500 pt list, and mine here. i'm hoping you could tell me some strategies to beat him with a close combat oriented army, as i'm very used to playing fire support style.

 

Blood Angels:

• HQ: Librarian w/ JP, Sanguine Sword, Blood Lance
  
• Elite: Chaplain w/ JP
  
• Elite: Sanguinary Priests(2) w/JP, LClaw
  
• Troop: Assault Squad(10) w/ 2 flamers, sgt w/ PSword
  
• Troop: Assault Squad(10) w/ 2 MeltaGuns, sgt w/ PFist, Combat Shield
  
• Troop: Assault Squad(10) w/ 2 MeltaGuns, sgt w/ PFist, Combat Shield
  
• Fast: Vanguard(5) w/ JP, 5 PSwords
  
• Fast: Baal Predator w/Assault Cannon, HBolter Sponsons
  

 

Tyranids:

• HQ: Hive Tyrant w/ Lashwhip&Bonesword, Heavy Venom Cannon, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Armoured Shell, Hive Commander, Leech Essence & Psychic Scream
  
• HQ: Tyrant Guard Brood (2)
  
• Elite: Zoanthrope Brood (3)
  
• Troop: Warrior Brood (9) w/ Devourer, Lashwhip&Bonesword
  
• Troop: Genestealer Brood (15) w/ Broodlord
  
• Troop: Genestealer Brood (15) w/ Broodlord
  

 

He tends to have his warriors in line abreast formation in front of his hive tyrant & guard, and outflanks his genestealers from the sides of the board. His zoanthropes he's more erratic with since he hasnts really decided what to do with them yet.

 

the only tactic i can think of since his guys move so fast is rush all my squads at his HQ, let one squad be a sacrifice to tie up the lashwhips in base2base contact, and have all my special weapons in the row behind to retaliate, and hope my rolls do enough damage to him. but i'm not sure if that will work, nor am i too thrilled in sacrificing an entire squad to boneswords.

 

any advice?

[thade]

First some comments on your list composition:

- Drop the combat shields on the Sergeants, they're not worth their points.

- Powerfists and Lighting Claws are gold; power weapons aren't. Take a single Lit Claw instead of a power weapon wherever you can.

- Your Vanguard is going to go down fast and you're going to feel it. Given them less power weapons and more bodies, maybe 2-3 with upgrades and 3+ more marines. Consider giving them a power fist.

- Don't give your Priests power weapons; that Lit claw would be far better served in your Vanguard or on one of your assault sergeants. In fact, priests are at great risk flying around as they're ICs and can get singled out if they get sucked into combat. I try to always leave mine in their transports, as it both protects them and boosts their effective range.

 

Now, Nids

- The Zoanthropes are anti-armor with their Str 10 shot. They will mulch your Pred (having little else to shoot at) so Outflank with it and try to take them out early. A single assault squad will mulch a Zoanthrope unit (they can have up to 3) with little to no losses; they are one of the few Nid units that isn't built for assault.

- I'm a fan of the Librarian, as he can potentially psychic hood those Zoanthropes, cutting down the amount of fire power they put out. That said, due to Shadows on the Warp (or whatever it's called), he'll have trouble testing for his own powers. Be judicious about when he uses powers.

- Genestealers are vicious; shoot them, kite them, and make sure YOU get the charge on them. This is really true of most Nid units; many of them are handy in assault. Since you have JPs you are much more mobile, so use this to your advantage. Try to pick your fights, sending two assault teams in to eat single units of his.

- Your Vanguard is small but will hit pretty hard; with JPs they can offer support and be that 2nd unit you need to counter-charge somewhere. Keep them behind your lines and dont charge them up ahead; use them to intercept squads that get too close to yours and do not send them in alone. Make sure they have the priest with them (this is especially important for Furious Charge) and one of your assault teams. Bonus if you get the Chaplain in there; put him with the Assault squad to maximize on the amount of hits he can help generate.

- The Genestealers are going out outflank? Keep that in mind when positioning your army. Keep a foot and a half between your marines and the table sides so you can react to them when they come in. That one assault team with two flamers will make you very happy when they introduce themselves to the stealers.

 

There's a smattering of thoughts for you. ^_^ Likely more later. I've played quite a few matches vs Nids, and all of them with Mephiston. It's a good time.

[Jackelope King]

Thade, I might suggest an alternative to better reflect how Blood Angels play Vanguard Vets.

 

Heroic Intervention + Descent of Angels = Opponents tearing their hair out trying to avoid death from above. They almost always go in reserve so they can drop in, land with pinpoint accuracy, then run up and slaughter something. I would like to see a few more bodies if at all possible, and maybe drop the swords for Lightning Claws (you'll be S5 rerolling wounds = lots and lots of wounds... this is why Black Templar have such good LC Terminators ^_^).

 

EDIT: That sounded harsher than I intended. Edited to avoid sounding too much like a jerk :huh:

 

That said, I would probably lose the chaplain. A second Jumper Librarian with Blood Lance is solid, and it denies your enemy the ability to castle, so your speed will give you the advantage. I'd also really like to see Devs in the list instead of a lone Baal Predator. A lot of Jumper lists really benefit from the reduced price of Blood Angel Devastators. Missile Launchers are great, and they're still great against Nids to boot.

 

2 Priests is pretty much the sweet spot from what I can see with what you'll put on the table. I'd drop their lightning claws. Priests aren't supposed to get into combat. They're supposed to stand inches away from combat while the rest of your boys wreck face.

 

Definitely drop the Combat Shields.

 

Feel no Pain Bubbles means you're really only worried about meleeing with the Tyrant or the Warriors.

[breng77]

As a Nid player I can give you a few ways to beat that list. First is don't assault most of it (except the Zoans). HIs Tyrant is way over equipped and not all that useful.

 

Warriors hate melta guns and Blood lance (if you can get it off on 3D6) At T4 with poor saves they will not enjoy being doubled out. Their shooting won't hurt that much (27 S4 shots at BS 3 don't hurt FNP marines much). If you want to assault them try to move your models in such a way that most won't be in BTB with his warriors (maybe jsut your PF sarge being within 6" then charge, and let him pile in) This way more of your models will attack at I5 (if you have a priest) This way you can wipe him out before he gets attacs back.) Or again let them assault you in cover, that way you will go at the same time. You'll lose the squad they assault but he'll lose alot of warriors in the process (that squad is 405 points)

 

As for the Stealers Use the Baal Pred to pepper them with shots, they don't have the saves to survive much. Keep your troops in cover and let them assault you. (If you assault them they go first, if they assault into cover without grenades they go last, and with 5+ saves they will go down hard.)

 

Finally your list needs more long range fire support. (or Fast vindicators at least would do alot of damage) Your list is really based around assaulting and his is better at it than yours. Your Vanguards are a waste in this battle, as nids (especially his list) don't care about Power weapons as their saves are terrible anyway. In addition all of his units will go first in close combat unless he charges you in cover.

[breng77]

Thade, I might suggest an alternative to better reflect how Blood Angels play Vanguard Vets.

 

Heroic Intervention + Descent of Angels = Opponents tearing their hair out trying to avoid death from above. They almost always go in reserve so they can drop in, land with pinpoint accuracy, then run up and slaughter something. I would like to see a few more bodies if at all possible, and maybe drop the swords for Lightning Claws (you'll be S5 rerolling wounds = lots and lots of wounds... this is why Black Templar have such good LC Terminators ).

 

Except LW/BS warriors don't care as they go before you with 27 PW attacks even when you charge. Nor do Genestlears who with the BL have something like 30 attacks that could rend and go first.(his opponent would do well to give them toxin sacs but, that is an argument for another time.)

 

That said, I would probably lose the chaplain. A second Jumper Librarian with Blood Lance is solid, and it denies your enemy the ability to castle, so your speed will give you the advantage. I'd also really like to see Devs in the list instead of a lone Baal Predator. A lot of Jumper lists really benefit from the reduced price of Blood Angel Devastators. Missile Launchers are great, and they're still great against Nids to boot.

 

I agree ML make warriors cry (3-4 dead warriors each turn unless they have cover.)

 

 

2 Priests is pretty much the sweet spot from what I can see with what you'll put on the table. I'd drop their lightning claws. Priests aren't supposed to get into combat. They're supposed to stand inches away from combat while the rest of your boys wreck face.

 

I agree with this. They should never be involved unless absolutely necessary.

 

 

Feel no Pain Bubbles means you're really only worried about meleeing with the Tyrant or the Warriors.

 

And rending genstealers.

[Jackelope King]

Feel no Pain Bubbles means you're really only worried about meleeing with the Tyrant or the Warriors.

 

And rending genstealers.

Ehh... rending's nerf is enough that I'm honestly not too concerned about rending claws on genestealers to hold back if an opportunity presents itself. Sure, shoot them first, definitely. But especially if you get the charge off, I'd be fine with charging a weakened group of genestealers. Basically, rending wouldn't stop me from charging if I thought that'd be enough to eliminate them as a threat.

[breng77]

True especially if you wore them down first, and they did not have toxin sacs. But 15 Genestealers with toxin sacs will average around 5 rends even if they get charged as well as 10 regular wounds. Of if 5 vanguard vets w/ FNP charged 15 genestealers, they would likely die before they even got to hit. NOw if they were shot down to 6-9 maybe it is a decent idea to charge them, but otherwise not so much. In most cases it would just be better to shoot them as they approach and let them charge you in cover, sure you get fewer attacks (10 assault marines will get 20 attacks) But you will kill genestealers before they get to hit you back instead of the opposite.

[Grizzly_bear]

Hand flamers......plenty of flame/melta weapons....tyranids HATE these two....I would keep the Baal pred but also include a full deve squad to supplement the pred and combat squad the deve squad to maximise fire line potential....

[Dusktiger]

hmm, lots of good ideas. see, i was fielding this list with the chaplain with the vanguard, and then a priest each with my assault squads with melta guns, and the librarian with the flamer squad.

 

switching the power sword on the assault sgt to a LClaw makes sense and i honestly dont know why it never occured to me before, since the reasoning for it is the same i used for giving the priests one each. the reason they have claws is because i figured that theyre attached to the squad so they may as well bring something extra to the melee when im facing other marines (my usual opponent is a space wolf).

 

a 2nd librarian seems tempting, but is it worth sacrificing the fearless and re-roll failed to-hit rolls in melee that i get from my chaplain?

 

i think the dev team with 4 missiles should be doable. i should have the spare bits to make them.

should i drop the chaplain and his vanguard squad for them, drop the Lclaws on the priests, change the PSword sgt to a Lclaw sgt, and lose the 2 combat shields? that leaves me with 1235pts. what else should i take?

[breng77]

The only issue with putting a LC on your sarges instead of a PW is you sacrifice an attack for the ability to re-roll wounds. Statistically you end up with about the same number of wounds dealt to a T 4 target. The issue with both of these is that a fist is usually better due to wound allocation, and the ability to cause instant death to T 4 models (this is great against warriors).

[thade]

Thade, I might suggest an alternative to better reflect how Blood Angels play Vanguard Vets.

EDIT: That sounded harsher than I intended. Edited to avoid sounding too much like a jerk :cry:

 

Ha, no offense taken. Actually, after having played my army as codex marines for a year, I've still got it drilled into me that HI is a waste...however, with only a d6" of scatter it can be used with some deadly effect. In this case, though, there's not a lot he'll be keeping at range on you and hiding that the five man team you're fielding will eat. Well, they can probably tear through those Zoanthropes on their own. I'd still use them for skirmishing around your gun lines, but it's up to you.

 

Also, consider the Unleashed Rage psychic power, as it's arguably better than the Chaplin. Downside = you have to pass a psychic test; upside = you can reroll your attacks *every turn*, not just the turn you charge.

[breng77]

Against Nids, Especially the list above, the chaplain is probably better unless you are not near any shadow in the warp creatures, on 3d6 you only get powers of about 50% of the time.

[Dusktiger]

so after looking at what models i have at my disposal, (and resigning to repainting some unused devastators into blood angels), i came up with this:

• Assault Squad (10men) w/2 flamers, Sgt w/ PSword, Librarian w/JP, Blood Lance, Sanguine Sword
  
• Assault Squad (10men) w/2 meltaguns, Sgt w/ PFist, Sanguinary Priest w/ JP
  
• Vanguard Veterans (5men) w/5 PSwords, JP, Sanguinary Priest w/ JP, LClaw
  
• Baal Predator w/ Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons
  
• Devastator Squad (5men) w/ 4 Missile Launchers
  
• Devastator Squad (5men) w/ 4 Missile Launchers
  
• Devastator Squad (5men) w/ 4 Heavy Bolters
  

 

i'll deploy the devs in the center and have them start firing right away at his warriors, and then his HQ. the assault squads will stay in flank to them awaiting the genestealers, and the vanguard will act as extra muscle to reinforce the jumpers. the predator i will adapt tactics with on the fly depending how the battle goes; either to bolter the troops in killing genestealers, or outflank the zoanthropes and attack them before they can disable it.

[vonny]

The hive tyrant is pretty weak: The toxin sacs on it means he only wounds on 4+ with rerolls, which is actually worse than wounding T4 on a 2+ if he didn't have toxin sacs (yes, he's paying points to reduce his effectiveness, isn't that nice?). It's also pretty slow, so you can avoid it until you want to deal with it.

 

The zoanthropes are vulnerable to S8+ attacks, but so are the warriors and they won't get a save. So focus some missile launchers or meltaguns on those warriors and they die in droves. in ocmbat, one sergeant with a power fist can kill 3 warriors, that's 9 wounds! As long as you have S8 hits raining down on them, don't worry. If need be, let him charge you so you go simultanious with power fists. Kill 2 warriors and lose a squad maybe, but the warriors won't like it either.

 

for genestealers, it's the same: let them charge you through cover. t4 5+ save doesn't do well against even normal attacks, and rending nerfed means you won't lose too many of your own, even with the broodlord in there, especially if you have feel no pain.

 

Basically the tactic is: shoot him and shoot him some more and then let him charge you through cover (unless you can move away, shoot some more, and stay out of charge range).

 

Also, this army will have some serious trouble with vehicles. If you don't mind changing your list around, place as many vehicles in it as possible. Drive 12" away, shoot (BA vehicles are fast), rinse and repeat. He can't catch you and you can keep shooting, and the only real threat that remains are the zoanthropes.

[thade]

Don't give the priest a Lit Claw, he's already a hot target as he gives your boys FNP. Put the Lit Claw on one of your Vanguard and drop a Power Sword. Lit Claws are strictly better than Power Swords anyway (barring the coolness factor).

 

You might consider dropping a Dev squad for a Dread, or at the very least using it's points to give the other two dev squads some ablative wound marines so you aren't constantly losing MLs when they take hits.

[Dusktiger]

so you guys would suggest making the list more like this?

• Assault Squad (10men) w/2 flamers, Sgt w/ PSword, Librarian w/JP, Smite, Sanguine Sword
  
• Assault Squad (10men) w/2 meltaguns, Sgt w/ PFist, Sanguinary Priest w/ JP
  
• Vanguard Veterans (5men) w/5 PSwords, JP, Sanguinary Priest w/ JP
  
• Baal Predator w/ Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons
  
• Devastator Squad (5men) w/ 4 Missile Launchers
  
• Devastator Squad (5men) w/ 4 Missile Launchers
  
• Dreadnought w Missile Launcher, TL Lascannon
  

 

also bear in mind my nid opponent has ONE battle under his belt. he's so focused on his painting and conversions that he pays little to no attention to the rules so alot of the tactics go right over him. he's basically "ill run all my guys at you and see if it ends well for me" kinda person. ergo the toxin sacs making his wound on 2+ into a 4+. he's only using the genestealers to "fill out" his army after picking the warriors and his hive tyrant, and he absolutely refuses to field any gaunts despite having around 30 or more sitting in containers. i've even told him to get tactical advice from other nid players beyond "warriors with boneswords and lashwhips are awesome; take them." but if he refuses to learn, that's his perogative. the one match we played was annihilation, so he's yet to realize the importance of troop choices.

[Mysticaria]

To be fair... Warriors and Genesteralers are both great troops. There's no problem running these units are the core of an army.

 

But, like everyone is saying there are a lot of suboptimal choices in there. Lashwhips and Boneswords are nice, but at 50 points per model they still get instakilled by krak missiles. Also, the broodlord is pretty lousy on a points-per-effectiveness scale. He's a cool model, but just not that good of a value. Hive Tyrant... walking Zoanthropes... Upgraded warriors with no moving cover saves... etc...

 

-Myst

 

EDIT: Meant to comment on your new list. It looks really good against nids. All those missiles and flamers should do well.

[thade]

so you guys would suggest making the list more like this?

• Assault Squad (10men) w/2 flamers, Sgt w/ PSword, Librarian w/JP, Smite, Sanguine Sword
  
• Assault Squad (10men) w/2 meltaguns, Sgt w/ PFist, Sanguinary Priest w/ JP
  
• Vanguard Veterans (5men) w/5 PSwords, JP, Sanguinary Priest w/ JP
  
• Baal Predator w/ Assault Cannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons
  
• Devastator Squad (5men) w/ 4 Missile Launchers
  
• Devastator Squad (5men) w/ 4 Missile Launchers
  
• Dreadnought w Missile Launcher, TL Lascannon
  

 

It looks alright. I'd change your Dread's loadout a bit. TL Lascannons on the dread are costly and IMO not worth it. Try out autocannons. Also, I always miss the DCCW when I don't have it...because he always finds himself mired in an assault if he doesn't have it, and plain old Str 6 doesn't cut it as well as that no-armor-save instant death Str 10.

 

Otherwise this list looks fun.

 

also bear in mind my nid opponent has ONE battle under his belt. he's so focused on his painting and conversions that he pays little to no attention to the rules so alot of the tactics go right over him. he's basically "ill run all my guys at you and see if it ends well for me" kinda person. ergo the toxin sacs making his wound on 2+ into a 4+. he's only using the genestealers to "fill out" his army after picking the warriors and his hive tyrant, and he absolutely refuses to field any gaunts despite having around 30 or more sitting in containers. i've even told him to get tactical advice from other nid players beyond "warriors with boneswords and lashwhips are awesome; take them." but if he refuses to learn, that's his perogative. the one match we played was annihilation, so he's yet to realize the importance of troop choices.

 

Be that as it may, Annihilation still wins all game types if he kills both your troop choices and/or tables you. It's not necessarily an autowin, as you're looking to charge into CC and Tyranids are well prepared for CC.

[The Wunup Kid]

Looks like the BA list is pretty well covered, so some advice for your friend:

 

I know he's intent on fielding the neat models he has, but I'd make a few changes. Drop the Tyrant Guard and the Tyrant's extended carapace. Give him wings and if there's points left over regen. Craft up a Mycetic Spore for the Zoeys. Start everything in reserves, deep strike the Tyrant and Zoeys, outflank with everything else.

[thade]

Looks like the BA list is pretty well covered, so some advice for your friend:

 

I know he's intent on fielding the neat models he has, but I'd make a few changes. Drop the Tyrant Guard and the Tyrant's extended carapace. Give him wings and if there's points left over regen. Craft up a Mycetic Spore for the Zoeys. Start everything in reserves, deep strike the Tyrant and Zoeys, outflank with everything else.

 

=)

 

Helping your opponent become a better player will improve the quality of your games. <3

[Zynk Kaladin]

Oooh how I hate deep striking "Zoeys" (Im going to borrow this). A guy I play does this and pretty much gets some free hits on the back of my tanks.

[breng77]

My question to you is why are you moving up far enought that his Zoeys can drop behind you (not that they need to W/ S 10 ap 1 lances)? Zoeys are really unrelaible though (especially if the opponent has a Libby).

 

Without a libby a Zoey has about a 27% chance of Destroying a Rhino. So a squad of 3 has about an 81.5% chance of destroying a rhino. Then they will probably get assaulted and killed.

 

If you have a bibby within 24 " a Zoey has a 15.7% chance of destroying a Rhino. So a squad of 3 has about an 47% chance of destroying a rhino.

[The Wunup Kid]

In this case, I wouldn't be aiming Zoeys at a tank (of which there are few), but at Devs. He has 3-4 shooting support units, I'd put them, ideally, between 2 of them. Either the pred and a squad of Devs, or if I'm lucky, both Devs, and the turn they land go to town with Warp Blast.

 

Best case scenario, free turn on one dev squad, warp field is fantastic for soaking up ML shots and then the survivors warp blast the second dev squad. Drop the tyrant behind the pred...of course I'd use a different loadout, giving it 2 sets of TL devourers, regen, wings, and adrenal glands. It drops behind the pred, and if it doesn't kill it in one round of shooting it'll likely finish the job in round 2 shooting and assault.

[Zynk Kaladin]

My question to you is why are you moving up far enought that his Zoeys can drop behind you (not that they need to W/ S 10 ap 1 lances)? Zoeys are really unrelaible though (especially if the opponent has a Libby).

 

I should have said side armor. I actually don't recall him hitting my back armor.

 

Without a libby a Zoey has about a 27% chance of Destroying a Rhino. So a squad of 3 has about an 81.5% chance of destroying a rhino. Then they will probably get assaulted and killed.

 

Can you explain this in more detail. I obviously missed something...

 

If you have a bibby within 24 " a Zoey has a 15.7% chance of destroying a Rhino. So a squad of 3 has about an 47% chance of destroying a rhino.

 

Because of psychic hood right?

[breng77]

I should have said side armor. I actually don't recall him hitting my back armor.

 

In most cases this does not matter. LR would be AV 12 on all sides for Zoans, any thing else would eb AV 12 front 11 sides, this is not all that big a difference vor S 10 AP 1.

 

 

Without a libby a Zoey has about a 27% chance of Destroying a Rhino. So a squad of 3 has about an 81.5% chance of destroying a rhino. Then they will probably get assaulted and killed.

 

A LD 10 Zoey has a ~92% chance to pass its Psychic test. Followed by a 67% chance of hitting its target. After hitting 83% of all shots will Penetrate with 17% glancing. 50% of penetrating hits result in vehicle Destoryed. 17% of glances result in Destroyed results.

 

Therefore

 

Penetrate is 92% * 67% * 83% * 50% = about 25.5% chance of destroying a rhino.

 

Glance is 92% * 67% * 17% * 17 % = about 1.7% to destroy a rhino which combine to give you a 27.2% chance to destroy a rhino. So 3 zoans are 3 times as effective or about 81.5%.

 

Now to drop within 18" of you odds say he shoudl place the spore within 12" which means that his zoans are most likely close enough to assault (especially if you have any other troops nearby).

 

If you have a libby within 24 " a Zoey has a 15.7% chance of destroying a Rhino. So a squad of 3 has about an 47% chance of destroying a rhino.

 

Because of psychic hood right?

 

yes.

 

As for going to town with Warp blast that assumes you hit and he is not in cover when you do. It is not that it is not at all effective. Just that it will probably last about 1 or 2 turns depending on spacing.