fighting nids with blood angels

[Dusktiger]

well, lillt update:

 

i didnt get to use this list against the nid player as his alternator died in his :cussty car. but i 'did' use it on a veteran nid player that took...

a swarmlord, a genestealer squad, a ymgarl genestealer squad, 2 gaunt squads, 3 zoeys, 3 rippers, 6 warriors, a tyranid prime, and a trygon prime.

one-shotted his swarmlord top of turn one and it was dead before it even moved on the battlefield. it was an objective mission, 5 of them, in the end we both held 2, i lost my libby, and he lost the trygon, the swarmlord, all the gene stealers, and one gaunt squad. i also lost 5 marines from the flamer squad, and 4 vanguard.

 

overall, it went very well. the pred and dred were unscathed.

[The Wunup Kid]

well, lillt update:

 

i didnt get to use this list against the nid player as his alternator died in his :cussty car. but i 'did' use it on a veteran nid player that took...

a swarmlord, a genestealer squad, a ymgarl genestealer squad, 2 gaunt squads, 3 zoeys, 3 rippers, 6 warriors, a tyranid prime, and a trygon prime.

one-shotted his swarmlord top of turn one and it was dead before it even moved on the battlefield. it was an objective mission, 5 of them, in the end we both held 2, i lost my libby, and he lost the trygon, the swarmlord, all the gene stealers, and one gaunt squad. i also lost 5 marines from the flamer squad, and 4 vanguard.

 

overall, it went very well. the pred and dred were unscathed.

That was at 1500?

 

While I don't consider myself the best nid player, I think that's a pretty...for lack of a better term, "weak" list. The Swarmlord is a huge points sink at that level, and is evidenced in your game, a liability without Tyrant Guard. I don't know that I'd even consider fielding him at 2k. The use of a trygon prime over a regular trygon is a mistake, too, I think.

 

Ideally, at 1500, I'd play a list like...

 

Warrior Prime

Warrior Prime

2 Hive Guard

2 Hive Guard

10 Termagants

Tervigon

10 Termagants

Tervigon

15 Hormagaunts with poison

15 Hormagaunts with poison

Trygon

5 or 6 Raveners with scything talons and rending claws

If there are enough points left I get a brood of gargoyles.

 

That's the kind of nids list you should expect to face at 1500, I think. It an be stupid fast, and with FNP on the Hormagaunts it'll be tough, as well. Lots of units to hold objectives, including the Tervigons, which will be hard to remove.

[Hellios]

Warrior Prime

Warrior Prime

2 Hive Guard

2 Hive Guard

10 Termagants

Tervigon

10 Termagants

Tervigon

15 Hormagaunts with poison

15 Hormagaunts with poison

Trygon

5 or 6 Raveners with scything talons and rending claws

If there are enough points left I get a brood of gargoyles.

 

That's the kind of nids list you should expect to face at 1500, I think. It an be stupid fast, and with FNP on the Hormagaunts it'll be tough, as well. Lots of units to hold objectives, including the Tervigons, which will be hard to remove.

 

FNP? I think not... fires krak missile at Hormagaunt... Where is your hive mind now?

 

Just kidding :) Are the gaunts T4? If not that list isn't anywhere near fast and scary enough... you better hope you get them gargoyles :tu:

[The Wunup Kid]

Hormagaunts are T3. If you're shooting krak missiles at them because they have FNP then I've won. That's exactly what I'm hoping for, and you won't kill them fast enough. You can argue the point if you want, but at the absolute latest I expect to be in hand to hand by the second turn.

 

In fact, the lists only serious issue is it's absolute inability to handle LRs.

[Hellios]

Hormagaunts are T3. If you're shooting krak missiles at them because they have FNP then I've won. That's exactly what I'm hoping for, and you won't kill them fast enough. You can argue the point if you want, but at the absolute latest I expect to be in hand to hand by the second turn.

 

In fact, the lists only serious issue is it's absolute inability to handle LRs.

 

I wasn't being serious about using Krak missiles at gaunts (hence the just kidding straight after)... even with FNP I'd frag em... First turn I'd kill Hive Guard & Tervigons (easier said than done right)... the only reason I care about the Hive Guard is I want my transports (at least some) to last until you assault me... after that I don't care.

 

Turn 2 I'll go for your Trygon and Raveners... assuming they started on the board... if you plan to deepstrike whenever they appear... Then I'm most likely in combat... I can take em :P I don't think this list can take 20 odd S7+ shots most of which are AP3 backed by a good amount of anti-infantry fire... even if the anti-infantry fire only gets one turn of shooting I think my big guns can get 2.

 

Obviously in theoryhammer land everything is nice :P a rumble on the board is a totally different matter... terrain/luck/superskills and so on...and not being able to handle a land raider is a pretty big issue :)

[The Wunup Kid]

Hormagaunts are T3. If you're shooting krak missiles at them because they have FNP then I've won. That's exactly what I'm hoping for, and you won't kill them fast enough. You can argue the point if you want, but at the absolute latest I expect to be in hand to hand by the second turn.

 

In fact, the lists only serious issue is it's absolute inability to handle LRs.

 

I wasn't being serious about using Krak missiles at gaunts (hence the just kidding straight after)... even with FNP I'd frag em... First turn I'd kill Hive Guard & Tervigons (easier said than done right)... the only reason I care about the Hive Guard is I want my transports (at least some) to last until you assault me... after that I don't care.

 

Turn 2 I'll go for your Trygon and Raveners... assuming they started on the board... if you plan to deepstrike whenever they appear... Then I'm most likely in combat... I can take em -_- I don't think this list can take 20 odd S7+ shots most of which are AP3 backed by a good amount of anti-infantry fire... even if the anti-infantry fire only gets one turn of shooting I think my big guns can get 2.

 

Obviously in theoryhammer land everything is nice :D a rumble on the board is a totally different matter... terrain/luck/superskills and so on...and not being able to handle a land raider is a pretty big issue ;)

I'm not looking to get into any sort of measuring contest..I'm just trying to help and this is one of the few areas where I feel I have more than a mediocre amount of expertise, being that nids were my first army and only recently have I begun shifting my enthusiasm towards marines. Even so, playing nids comes very naturally to me. I feel like posting a challenge and perspective from the opponent's side of the board can make people better players in this situation. All too often , especially here at B&C, I think perspective is skewed because of bias and, well, overconfidence. Rarely are posters willing to take up the banner of the opposition in order to help everyone become a more competative player.

 

Now then...keep in mind the list I posted is approximately (I did the math in my head) 1500 points. Playing it, this is how a game would likely go...

 

If I, as nids, go first, lots of things run forward. Hormagaunts stay intermingled and slightly back of the two small termagant broods. Tervigons (which I generally give AD but not poison) use Catalyst on the Hormagaunts. This gives them a 4+ cover save and a 4+ FNP, at 15 strong even with good rolling I expect it would take at least 2 turns to wipe out a squad unless plasma cannons are being used. If you're shooting at Tervigons...generally it takes a bit of luck to get one down in a single turn.

 

Second turn Raveners are in CC with the Trygon right behind them...and things rapidly go downhill from there.

 

If I go second...Raveners have a threat range of 19-24", there's a pretty good chance they're in combat on turn one. This is why a list like this wins more than it loses: people seriously underestimate the threat Raveners present. In combat they're very, very ugly (5 attacks on I5 on the assault, hitting on 3s and rerolling 1s, rending), and they tie up units just long enough for other units to get in close. Moreover, they really do tend to disrupt target priorities. They get ignored, then they wipe a unit in CC and immediately become over prioritized and get shot up, allowing other units to close unharmed, and if they're not wiped out immediately they get back in combat.

 

I don't think inability to handle LRs is a huge weakness, since we're talking about a 1500 point list. It is a concern, but one that can likely be ignored. The termies inside can be bogged down by termagants, which I'm happy to do in non-KP games. Preds and Vindicators can also be an issue..but that's what the Hive Guard are for..each brood accompanied by a Warrior Prime means 7 out of 8 shots should hit..stick em out on the flanks and try to get side armor as quick as possible.

 

I dunno..maybe other people find a list like this, and the tactics associated with it, easy to handle. But on the whole, I have much more trouble beating this kind of playstyle rather than playing it and beating up marines (or CSM or orks or eldar or whatever).

[Hellios]

I dunno..maybe other people find a list like this, and the tactics associated with it, easy to handle. But on the whole, I have much more trouble beating this kind of playstyle rather than playing it and beating up marines (or CSM or orks or eldar or whatever).

 

No doubt that is because you are used to using it rather than being on the other end of it... Anyone who deploys or moves in such a way that you get a first turn charge against them (unless they want to be in combat) deserves to lose against that list...

 

Oh and I just did the maths based on averages assuming you get a 4+ cover save on the tervigons and I would kill both of them (assuming LoS) in one turn of shooting and have a little bit of dakka from my long range assets to spare... Also while my psykers might not do much on the offense... Thank you shadow in the warp :wallbash:... my psychic hoods or other doodas (depending on army) still work...

 

I'm by no means saying look at me I auto-win but I think more nasty nid lists exist this one is based on rushing into the enemies face and a bit on the first turn... I imagine two turns of shooting can make a big difference compared to one... I also imagine it works well on armies that work best upclose... for example Vulcan marine lists... with flamers and meltas don't have the dakka to kill you... I reckon some of my marine lists or even Ork lists might put the scare on you... with how much firepower I pack...

 

Its not a bad list but I wouldn't see it winning any GTs... without some damn good luck... I don't win GTs either so I guess we are even ;)

[The Wunup Kid]

You need like..40 S8 shots to kill a pair of Tervigons in one turn, if they have a 4+ cover save?

 

12 wounds, on a 4++ means if we're doing averages you have to put up 24 wounds. One in six failing to wound means you need 30 hits..so hitting on 3s, you'd need 45 shots, less if you have twin linked stuff. But still..we are talking 1500 points, this isn't a GT list.

[Mysticaria]

Quick question... can Warrior Prime boost BS on Hive Guard? I thought their ability only works with warriors.

 

Also, this is a pretty simple and effective nid list. I too played Nids before marines, and I have to say the learning curve was a lot higher for me with marines. It was far easier to win games as a new player using nids than it was as a marine. I really had to learn to take the right units, and play really smart to win with marines, but nids just seemed so easy.

 

I actually think that nid list is really deceptive, because the real threat to me are the hormagaunts and hive guard. Tervigons are big scary bugs, but hormogaunts are really really fast. If enemy tries to take out the Ravenors (which I think are not that good due to number of krak missiles out there) then those gaunt squads are going to hit at full strength. In 1500 points I can't see 2 Tervigons going down. It is hard to kill 1 on the first turn, let alone 2. Unfortunately T-gons in that configuration just aren't that scary. What happens if the space marine just ignores them for the first two turns and takes out the ravenors, hormogaunts, and hive guard.... eventually the nid player will be left with a couple MCs that have low strength and low attacks, and a bunch small broods of S3 T3 little annoying creatures. Hard to see termigaunts overpowering a space marine army that hasn't even been shot up yet. I mean, if the hive guard go down... what will this army do against a vindicator or two? Just a thought... not always one best way to fight any given battle.

 

-Myst

[The Wunup Kid]

Quick question... can Warrior Prime boost BS on Hive Guard? I thought their ability only works with warriors.

 

Also, this is a pretty simple and effective nid list. I too played Nids before marines, and I have to say the learning curve was a lot higher for me with marines. It was far easier to win games as a new player using nids than it was as a marine. I really had to learn to take the right units, and play really smart to win with marines, but nids just seemed so easy.

 

I actually think that nid list is really deceptive, because the real threat to me are the hormagaunts and hive guard. Tervigons are big scary bugs, but hormogaunts are really really fast. If enemy tries to take out the Ravenors (which I think are not that good due to number of krak missiles out there) then those gaunt squads are going to hit at full strength. In 1500 points I can't see 2 Tervigons going down. It is hard to kill 1 on the first turn, let alone 2. Unfortunately T-gons in that configuration just aren't that scary. What happens if the space marine just ignores them for the first two turns and takes out the ravenors, hormogaunts, and hive guard.... eventually the nid player will be left with a couple MCs that have low strength and low attacks, and a bunch small broods of S3 T3 little annoying creatures. Hard to see termigaunts overpowering a space marine army that hasn't even been shot up yet. I mean, if the hive guard go down... what will this army do against a vindicator or two? Just a thought... not always one best way to fight any given battle.

 

-Myst

You're right, Primes only affect warriors. Been a while since I fielded any..In which case, a Hive Tyrant with Paroxysm in their place would be a better play.

 

As for Raveners...they're good for what they do. Which is either draw a lot of attention, or get ignored and hit like a bag of hammers.

 

Tervigons don't need to be scary. They're a T6 6W scoring unit that makes more scoring units and can cast FNP on hormagaunt broods about to assault.

 

I already noted that high AV vehicles are a weakness for this list (and really all nid lists). After the hive guard the primary answer to them are MCs.

[Mysticaria]

Yeah, I wasn't trying to tear up your list. I was just pointing out that there are different ways to play every battle and that "shoot the big ones first" doesn't always have to be the stretegy. In fact, I think shooting the Tervigons first in this list is going to really give the nids a pretty easy victory. All those krak missiles need to hit ravenors and hive guard on the first two turns or it is going to be really bad for the marines.

 

I think it is important to analyse each game what it is your opponent is trying to do and take a look at what you have to combat that. Then come up with a plan and execute. List building is only the first part, after that you have to play the game. There are lots of ways to go wrong in either step.

 

-Myst

[Hellios]

Yeah, I wasn't trying to tear up your list. I was just pointing out that there are different ways to play every battle and that "shoot the big ones first" doesn't always have to be the stretegy. In fact, I think shooting the Tervigons first in this list is going to really give the nids a pretty easy victory. All those krak missiles need to hit ravenors and hive guard on the first two turns or it is going to be really bad for the marines.

 

I think it is important to analyse each game what it is your opponent is trying to do and take a look at what you have to combat that. Then come up with a plan and execute. List building is only the first part, after that you have to play the game. There are lots of ways to go wrong in either step.

 

-Myst

 

Hive guard can do little to my list... after the first two turns... ravaneers will be dealt with but not with my S7+ weapons... I still have heavy bolters and other small arms... and then the gaunts will be cut down like wheat in the harvest by my bolters... so it has always been and so it will continue to be... I only shopot the tervigons not because they are big and scary but killing 200 gaunts is a waste of my time...

[Mysticaria]

Yeah, I wasn't trying to tear up your list. I was just pointing out that there are different ways to play every battle and that "shoot the big ones first" doesn't always have to be the stretegy. In fact, I think shooting the Tervigons first in this list is going to really give the nids a pretty easy victory. All those krak missiles need to hit ravenors and hive guard on the first two turns or it is going to be really bad for the marines.

 

I think it is important to analyse each game what it is your opponent is trying to do and take a look at what you have to combat that. Then come up with a plan and execute. List building is only the first part, after that you have to play the game. There are lots of ways to go wrong in either step.

 

-Myst

 

Hive guard can do little to my list... after the first two turns... ravaneers will be dealt with but not with my S7+ weapons... I still have heavy bolters and other small arms... and then the gaunts will be cut down like wheat in the harvest by my bolters... so it has always been and so it will continue to be... I only shopot the tervigons not because they are big and scary but killing 200 gaunts is a waste of my time...

What is your list that Hive Guard aren't effective? Just curious, because they are one of the best units in the nid codex and if you can completely negate them as a threat that would be useful information to know how to pull that off.

 

-Myst

[The Wunup Kid]

I'm fairly interested in seeing this list, as well.

[Frosty the Pyro]

I should have said side armor. I actually don't recall him hitting my back armor.

 

In most cases this does not matter. LR would be AV 12 on all sides for Zoans, any thing else would eb AV 12 front 11 sides, this is not all that big a difference vor S 10 AP 1.

 

 

Without a libby a Zoey has about a 27% chance of Destroying a Rhino. So a squad of 3 has about an 81.5% chance of destroying a rhino. Then they will probably get assaulted and killed.

 

A LD 10 Zoey has a ~92% chance to pass its Psychic test. Followed by a 67% chance of hitting its target. After hitting 83% of all shots will Penetrate with 17% glancing. 50% of penetrating hits result in vehicle Destoryed. 17% of glances result in Destroyed results.

 

Therefore

 

Penetrate is 92% * 67% * 83% * 50% = about 25.5% chance of destroying a rhino.

 

Glance is 92% * 67% * 17% * 17 % = about 1.7% to destroy a rhino which combine to give you a 27.2% chance to destroy a rhino. So 3 zoans are 3 times as effective or about 81.5%.

 

Now to drop within 18" of you odds say he shoudl place the spore within 12" which means that his zoans are most likely close enough to assault (especially if you have any other troops nearby).

 

If you have a libby within 24 " a Zoey has a 15.7% chance of destroying a Rhino. So a squad of 3 has about an 47% chance of destroying a rhino.

 

Because of psychic hood right?

 

yes.

 

As for going to town with Warp blast that assumes you hit and he is not in cover when you do. It is not that it is not at all effective. Just that it will probably last about 1 or 2 turns depending on spacing.

 

 

when multiple shots are going at a vehicle, you do not sum their %, you multiply the failure rate. This is because suming counts the chance geting 3 destoyed results the same as destroying 3 diferent rhinos, when in trueth no mater how many destroyed results you get, your still only killing one rhino. so 27.2 has a 72.8 failure rate, so 0.728^3=0.386 failure rate wich gives a success rate of 61.4%.

 

for a nearby liby its 0.843^3=0.599, so 3 zoeys near a libby only have a 40% chance of destroying the target.

 

Of course this doesnt count deaths by weapon strip/imobilize, or the vaulue of non-destroyed results

[Dusktiger]

O.O my thread's degenerated into a series of "my army list can kick your army list's butt!" "oh yea? well i think not! cause i have THIS!"

 

to be back on topic, the nid player in question doesnt have any hormagaunts. he has around 30ish? termagants. a couple raveners, he recently bought a barbed heirodrule, and he has an old one eye and maybe 2 or 3 hive tyrants, and one or two carnifex, and i believe he has a trygon as well.

 

given that, can you suggest a 1500pt list for him that doesn't require heavy substitution of other models to represent what he wants to take? we're trying to avoid making him proxy 50% or more of his army during matches.

[Mysticaria]

O.O my thread's degenerated into a series of "my army list can kick your army list's butt!" "oh yea? well i think not! cause i have THIS!"

 

to be back on topic, the nid player in question doesnt have any hormagaunts. he has around 30ish? termagants. a couple raveners, he recently bought a barbed heirodrule, and he has an old one eye and maybe 2 or 3 hive tyrants, and one or two carnifex, and i believe he has a trygon as well.

 

given that, can you suggest a 1500pt list for him that doesn't require heavy substitution of other models to represent what he wants to take? we're trying to avoid making him proxy 50% or more of his army during matches.

Those are the only models he has? Were there no warriors or genstealers available?

 

Barbed Heirodule is not currently in the nid codex, but it is a large MC that can be played as a Tyranofex or Tervigon. Tervigon is good, but with only 1 and with access to only 30 gaunts it might be a good time to try out the Tyrannofex. There is mixed opinion on this guy, but some people really like them. Also, with the big guns on the Heirodule I would think this guy would make a really good tyrannofex without any need to proxy. Lots of different ways to run him too, with access to anti-infantry or anti-tank weaponry. Enjoy one of the only 2+ saves in the codex. Plus, he might surprise some people since they are hardly ever played.

 

Hive Tyrant is really good but they are HQ so having 3 doesn't help any since you can only play 2 at a time. I imagine a list with 2 of these and a Trygon, tyranofex, and couple Carnifexen would be decent. It is going to be tough to win without many troops, but I'd try to spam the MCs and see what happens. Maybe people will have a hard time dealing with all that T6.

 

Also, I would refer him to The Tyranid Hive since they can give lots of advice and not worry about getting locked down by the inquisition.

 

-Myst

[Dusktiger]

he has warriors and genestealers too. everything he took in the list i posted much further back has the models he physically has. those were non-proxied. and then he also has all the models i posted in that last post.

[The Wunup Kid]

As Myst said, the Heirodule makes a great Tyrannofex model..

 

The previous list posted isn't what I'd call bad, though not my playstyle:

 

Hive Tyrant with wings, hive commander

3 Zoeys in a Mycetic Spore

9 Warriors with what have you..

2 broods of 15 genestealers

 

You could drop some genestealers (and the Brood Lords for sure) and warriors, get a Carnifex in a MySpore, and still be effective, I think. I try to aim for one MC per 500 points when playing nids. They often have to rely on target saturation in order to survive and do damage..not having enough of one type of creature (broken into 3 subtypes: small, medium and large) can result in units being destroyed without doing anything. So if you make a 1500 point list with just one Carnifex for MCs, it'll probably get nuked into the ground before it moves. But if you make a 1500 point list with a Hive Tyrant, a Trygon and a Carnifex...

 

Same goes for Warrior sized creatures..just one brood of them means they'll probably go down fast. In the above list, I'd recommend 2 squads of 4 (and putting the remaining points elsewhere) or 3 squads of 3. One big squad means there's no target saturation, and things like Preds and Dev squads can just go to town. In the above list this is an exception, as the Warriors would be outflanking..

 

I'd say take the list, play it, and if it doesn't work out or your friend doesn't enjoy that playstyle, nids have many other options (I prefer swarm but wouldn't force that on him if he doesn't like the concept)..but it sounds like he's leaning towards Nidzilla.

 

Myst mentioned the tyranid hive, and Warpshadow is another good resource.