Terminator Units

[jjfelber]

So Ive been playing around with various Spacewolf units and load outs, yet every time I try and add a unit of Terminators I cringe and squirm and keep coming back to the unit tweaking it and rethinking and and eventually my rational side takes over, or what I assume is rational, and then I remove the unit.

 

Don't get me wrong, I understand the use of a single terminator here or there, maybe a cyclone missile launcher, A lone wolf in TDA, or maybe even a character(but then I choose Runic Armor and SS). I have an issue with a unit of 5+ terminators. They cost so much for a unit of even 5 models (5 wounds) that I cannot, in good faith, take them. They are slow so they need a transport. Add a Droppod and they land kill something and either sit there or die. Add a landraider and you have just spent 250 pts on a transport for a unit that again only has 5 wounds. Sure they have a 2+/5+, but a few PWs/THs/PFs/ap2/ap1 and whoopty-friggin-do, Dead unit.

 

I had a buddy charge 2x10 GHs with 7 lightning claw termies and a lightning claw HQ and they killed a total of 10 models, but I killed all the termies and there was only one wound left on his HQ. Sure against a different opponent that may have worked fine, but to me it seems way too risky.

 

Am I wrong to think Termie Units don't have a place in a competitive list? If so, how do you run yours so I can give it a go.

Or is my gripe of Termie units being a point sink/waste valid?

[Grey Mage]

I have the same problem. Ever since we lost runic charms I feel like a fool putting down an 80pt one wound model.

 

And I hate padding the unit with 18pt spare wounds.... it feels dirty.

 

So I just dont run them much. When I do its as a small squad- like 3- with the other squad mates having broken off as pack leaders. I dont use pack leaders much though.... but a couple CC guys and a CML slamming down in a Drop Pod is good for a kick, and the missile shots on side armor *or AC shots if you prefer...* can make back their points turn 1.

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

So Ive been playing around with various Spacewolf units and load outs, yet every time I try and add a unit of Terminators I cringe and squirm and keep coming back to the unit tweaking it and rethinking and and eventually my rational side takes over, or what I assume is rational, and then I remove the unit.

I find myself in this situation alot too - I really want to field them - they are some of my favourite models and have one of the greatest selection of options in the 40k game, but that still isn't enough to regularly justify them in game terms.

 

I'm afraid the pride of my collection now sits in the cabinet and looks out at me longingly awaiting 2k+ games and the occasional pick as a pack leader, which is a shame. GMs point about 18 (21, with storm bolter) point padding is something I want (and try) to do but also feel 'dirty' - it just feels wrong and negative for a pack with the might of tda... sigh.

 

I also raise a glass for runic charms - gone but not forgotten... ;)

[Growler67]

You can always use them to play Space Hulk and Terminate some bugs.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Yours are interesting. No devastating charge like Templar LC ones and no cheap absorb any hit and then beatdown like Ultra Hammernators.

 

What Wolf ones have is diverse armament, which allows for wound allocation tricks and having killy for all situations.

 

You can termicide with a Pod, perhaps better [though probably different] than Chaos. DPA allows them to come in on T1. A Pod is more accurate than DSing and then you can deploy your Terms around the Pod, instead of that horrendously tight DS bunch.

You don't have to drop them in the deep end ~ off to the side, etc, is certainly viable and might keep them out of TLoS from most of his shooting. You can get cover from the Pod, giving you a 4++

 

Combi-Mg - AT and t4 multi-wounds. Pg - AT [against AC 10-11] and removes nasty Sang guard and DC. Flamer - multiple flamers are actually great at torrenting MEq and of course scorch Horde.

 

TH SS is way too expensive. s8 is nothing too fancy. Keep the SS guy with just a PW, etc.

The CF is gold, much more killy against vehicles.

The WC is brilliant for its points and kills much more effectively than a PW.

 

Use the combi-weapons to give them sting before they charge. i4 power weapons are gold as it reduces the return attacks and that helps those i1 guys last longer.

 

You can use a skirmish screen of Fenwolves for a cover save, beefing them up against ap1 - 2 shots.

 

+++

 

The points for TDA, considering you get a PW and SB, is golden. You can stick them in a Fangs or Greys unit [plasma hunters] and soak up ap3 shooting. One made save and you have paid off the TDA. The SB contributes to the Bolter fire.

 

And I hate padding the unit with 18pt spare wounds.... it feels dirty.

 

Don't let such things get in the way of a winning option.

[rodgambit]

I ran 5 with a pod in a recent 1500 list of mine and they worked out very well. I ran 4 of them with stock PW and added combi-meltas and the last guy had HF/PF. They create an early distraction so that my other units can get into place and they can contest objectives as a unit and with their drop pod. I don't use them in every list but I have been trying to find a way to fit some in with combi-weapons and the first go around they worked out fine.

[old git]

The problem as I see it is that they're far too expensive in terms of points to make them equivalent to hammer/shield vanilla termies, which is the standard termie squad thesedays. Not having my codex to hand but it's something like 63 points for a hammer/shield wolf as opposed to 40 for a C:SM. Sure, you get counterattack but termies should be charging out of a 'raider so CA is less useful. I'm in the same position as Wolf Guard, I have 6 wolf termies sat on the shelf that rarely see the battlefield, which is a pity 'cos the models are cool.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The problem as I see it is that they're far too expensive in terms of points to make them equivalent to hammer/shield vanilla termies, which is the standard termie squad thesedays. Not having my codex to hand but it's something like 63 points for a hammer/shield wolf as opposed to 40 for a C:SM. Sure, you get counterattack but termies should be charging out of a 'raider so CA is less useful. I'm in the same position as Wolf Guard, I have 6 wolf termies sat on the shelf that rarely see the battlefield, which is a pity 'cos the models are cool.

 

I think TWC & Hammernators would be too powerful. Not having Hammernators makes it easier for everyone else :)

 

Have you tried Wolfclaw and Combi-weapon Terms from a Raider?

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

Have you tried Wolfclaw and Combi-weapon Terms from a Raider?

These are the main way mine see action, but I would only consider this in 1750+. Even for 5 basic Claw 'n' Combi and a naked raider you are looking at 460 points for 6 models - compare this to two packs of 10 Grey Hunters with toys and rhinos - its just not a contest for me I'm afraid. Fun, maybe, but even close to competitive, no.

 

The advantage of the options is surely one best suited to spreading the wolfguard around, but even then PA rather than TDA is usually the winner.

[littlbitz]

I'm actually planning the opposite theory of what you guys are thinking.

 

I have always fielded my Large GreyHunter pack on foot with a single TDA with Assault Cannon. This unit is my core Troop choice.

 

Since it has fared so well, I have been planning to take it to the next step. It does mean a rework of my whole list, but I am going to take Logan.

 

Then I am planning a single TDA pack of 10 with to Cyclone missile launchers, I'm going to attempt to keep the cost down, with only 2 combi-mg and a single chainfist. That is going to be the new core Troop to my army.

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

I'm actually planning the opposite theory of what you guys are thinking.

 

I have always fielded my Large GreyHunter pack on foot with a single TDA with Assault Cannon. This unit is my core Troop choice.

 

Since it has fared so well, I have been planning to take it to the next step. It does mean a rework of my whole list, but I am going to take Logan.

 

Then I am planning a single TDA pack of 10 with to Cyclone missile launchers, I'm going to attempt to keep the cost down, with only 2 combi-mg and a single chainfist. That is going to be the new core Troop to my army.

I can see the thinking, I really can, but the points total in such a small number of 1 wound bodies is what I struggle to justify - I have a soft spot for the two TDA cyclone packs for more (but not very) mobile firepower than Long Fangs, but then I look at my alternatives (often Land speeders with MM or Missiles) and can get speed and firepower for a similar priced, if somewhat fragile, package. I really don't go anywhere without a pair of speeders now (beats sitting in traffic too :tu: ).

 

Note that in my 5k list I've just posted for discussion, the 2 cylcone pack is one of the lynchpins for the rest of the army to work around, but only because the total points value is so high! I'd be interested to hear of any future successes you have with such packs bitz. Your thinking of keeping the rest of the pack fairly bare is essential I would say.

 

Nos.

[jjfelber]

I'm actually planning the opposite theory of what you guys are thinking.

 

I have always fielded my Large GreyHunter pack on foot with a single TDA with Assault Cannon. This unit is my core Troop choice.

 

Since it has fared so well, I have been planning to take it to the next step. It does mean a rework of my whole list, but I am going to take Logan.

 

Then I am planning a single TDA pack of 10 with to Cyclone missile launchers, I'm going to attempt to keep the cost down, with only 2 combi-mg and a single chainfist. That is going to be the new core Troop to my army.

 

 

Would you really consider that unit in a competitive situation?

Logan + 10 TDA + 2CML + 2combi + Chain fist, tips the scale at 690pts.

Assuming Logan in in the unit. Now you are foot slogging 690 pts across the board? And all they can answer back is 4 Missile shots and some storm bolters?

Not to mention if you have to control objectives you will undoubtedly be a unit or 2 of core shy of your normal list.

 

Knowing you though, you will make it work and surprise everyone.

 

I'm not sure I could muster the courage to bring a unit like that. If it backfired I would be so upset because I would feel like I should have seen it coming.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

1. buy terminators

2. deploy on board

3.????????????

4. Profit!

 

Mainly used to hold the line or to get the drop on the enemys vital but strong units.

[littlbitz]

Yes I would consider it in a competitive situation, but then again, I always try and think out of the box.

 

The key here is that Logan is not with the unit, just close by. He actually will hang with a second foot slogging unit on foot, namely a Long Fang pack with 5 Heavy Bolters taking advantage of the relentless.

 

As long as Logan stays within 6" of the Termies they can take advantage of his Saga of Majesty.

[Jonas Stromclaw]

See, I used to use my five man TDA pack as bait for my foot slogging force. They'd distract the enemy and allow my grey hunters to cross the board unscathed. Then people got wise and didn't focus on 'em so much. So now they gather dust, sadly waiting for battle on my shelf. Oh well, 5 wolf scouts showing up in the hostile's DZ makes a better distraction anyway. :)

[WG Vrox]

I think were many people get derailed with our TDA models is putting to many points into their load out and even more so when Logan enters the list. I run a 2k Logan list but with only 1 WG TDA unit and 3 GH units.

 

First let me state I run a 2 pod list, one full of TDA WG to come in on turn 1 if there is a juicy target and other that comes in on turn 1 to form a gunline unit if needed, The first has 5 WG in TDA

CM/PW

CM/CF

CM/WC

SS/PW

SS/WC

 

This gives me the most advantage with dice allocation and still keeps it fairly cheap while be effective. The other WG in TDA gets either the AC or CML / PF and joins 8 GH in a Pod for my gunline unit.

 

Where I claim a dynamic twist is I will at times pull the CM/CF in TDA out to join 10 GH in a LRC, as usually this is where Logan rides but switching them out I can put Logan in the Pod and have a serious scoring unit that has some serious staying power.

 

Keeping your list flexible and relatively cheap by substituting a WG scoring unit for a GH scoring unit runs only about 100 points more and Logan is not that much more expensive then a lord with the same load out but with a lot more special rules.

 

Vrox

[Grey Mage]

And I hate padding the unit with 18pt spare wounds.... it feels dirty.

 

Don't let such things get in the way of a winning option.

True- but its important to know your own playstyle. If Im not going to be in the proper mindset to use the unit, then putting it into my list is a losing option. I prefer to use alot of Lean unit options to give me large amounts of firepower, wounds, and options on the field- Terminators dont fit into that, and its the frustration of making them a lean unit that keeps me from taking them.

 

If a unit is being put out to soak up damage, it needs to be cost effective- a basic WGTDA is 33pts, and dies 1/2 as often as a grey hunter to bolter fire and all the equivilants running around- including lasguns, catapults, etc. 2 Grey Hunters is 30pts.... so, before we even get into toys Im taking a cut to my armies survivability simply be fielding these guys. Now, they do get a 5++ save against some of the more powerful anti-tank and anti-infantry weapons out there... but then Im paying 33pts for a guy who has a 1 in 3 chance to survive where a GH wouldnt... and that may be redundant on a board with good cover. If I put a stormshield on him then were looking at a minimum of 48pts for a guy who is more survivable, but will struggle to make back his points in direct damage AND still dies only 1/2 as fast as a GH to bolter fire, but now costs three times as much.

 

Throw a heavy weapon on him, and now Im at 5 times the price of a GH- can he make back those points? Is he worth the risk of reducing my forces? Sometimes they are, most of the time I dont think so.

 

So, when do I consider taking them?

 

Drop Pods- Throwing down a mixed PA/TDA WG unit in a pod is fairly viable and a characterful unit. I can mix and match all sorts of weapon combos on there and deliver a viable threat to my enemies.... and if I have enough pods coming down with them its not a suicide venture AND gives me a convenient place to throw in an HQ choice.

 

Pack Leaders- If Im taking pack leaders Ill considering making a couple of them TDA WG- Fire Support Plasma Hunters get a CML, Twin Wolf Claws on a BC+LRC pack.... but still, most will be PA to fit into rhinos or sneak with the scouts.

 

Cityfight- Cityfight automatically gives mech armies a good kick in the behind, and footslogging goes from a somewhat challenging game to the top of the heap- and WGTDA can help here more than most without changing the squads initial abilities on iota.

 

Planetstrike- Again, Drop Pods, but only for the extra security itll bring them. These guys break bastions and take names.... but the tempo of the game is so different, I find its harder for my opponent to concentrate on them. Theres just to much chaos for most players.

 

Now, Id also take them in a Logan army- but, I havent ran an army with Logan since the new codex came out.

 

I wont take them:

As their own footslogging pack. A smart opponent will bring them down with weight of fire, or demolish them with plasma when my SSs go down.

 

As their own pack in a Landraider. Theres to many ways to kill this unit, and throwing down an 800pt deathstar is just offering your opponent a way to cripple your forces.

 

As suicide units. If I need Meltaguns delivered to a target Ive got 2 of them wielded by a GH pack in a DP, or a MM on a Dread/Vendread coming down. If I truely felt the need to get 10 Combi-meltas to a target, well TDA wouldnt be the right choice- The PA boys would be the ones targetting that Reaver Titan.

[Niiai]

Grey Mage, you are one of the few ow us who has enough Drop Pods to make a drop list. I would think that they would be good there. Some GH squads with meltas (for utilaty) and small arms fire to take down hordes. Throw in a TDA.

 

Now the original TDA group is equiped with 4 CP or CM and drop down destroying something. Would work non? The whole pod list seems to hang on the fact that you get to shoot before the other guy. Would it not be good to have some aces in TDA come down lategame and tear things up after all the dust setteles?

 

Edit: I did not read all the way down, I can se that you have already awsered that.

 

I do think they would be realy good if you held them back and not started with them. Because then there would be less guns around when they do show up. It seems like the best place for them to be is in CC. (And they can get 2 hand weaponds, 2 attacks to begin with, that is 3 attack with 4 on the charge or counter charge.) They would be rather nifty with a mix of ranged/melle.

[Wolf Guard Nostromo]

I do think they would be realy good if you held them back and not started with them. Because then there would be less guns around when they do show up. It seems like the best place for them to be is in CC. (And they can get 2 hand weaponds, 2 attacks to begin with, that is 3 attack with 4 on the charge or counter charge.) They would be rather nifty with a mix of ranged/melle.

Keeping troops back in the inital encounters can work really well in objective games, but it obviously means the rest of your troops will be badly outgunned until they arrive, particularly if the pack is a decent sized and thus impact investment - this can quickly spell doom as well as glory.

 

The other problem here is the cost - they do have alot of options, but by taking even the two cheapest of those you quickly make them 43 points which is nearly 3 times the cost of Grey Hunter - thats alot for something with 1 wound that can still be killed by a lasgun.

[jjfelber]

It always comes back to the point for point question.

I agree that a unit of termies can be good, but After they are on paper I always go back through my list and ask myself, could these points be used better elsewhere? and 9 out of 10 times I will says yes. 2 units if GHs are better then 1 unit of termies.

[DasWolfei]

If your looking for termis and have some decent points try this out for size. I use it in my all commers list at 2k and have really liked it. Depending on who/what i face I either bring it in on turn one to drop something really bad or hold it back for turn 2-5 depending on how drunk they are and shoot up something bad, this unit also drops in with either a dread with astcannon/pf/Hvy flamer and a gh squad. Give them targets and force there next move. Like wise if need be if iam going to hold the line these 4 in cover and use the DP to block some loS. They got a bit of everything to handle almost any thing out there. CF for tanks or dreads/IC's and such, FW/PW/WC gives you some nice differnt pw attacks, and 4 combi-plasma's will ruin almost any ones day. From Big bad MC's to a unit of termis thats walking to your good old standard Marine troop. This unit of 4 with pod comes in at 217 points

 

CF/Combi-plasma

FW/Combi-plasma

PW/Combi-plasma

WC/Combi-plasma

Drop Pod

[Stormshrug]

Even though I only have a pack of 3-5, I don't run mine under 2,000 points. Their high cost and inability to capture points (as I don't field Logan) make it very hard to justify them in small games. When I do field them, they're usually footslogging with my Rune Priest (using Rhinos, etc as cover to advance), hunting down large, unpleasant stuff.

 

-Stormshrug

[dentonius]

I always use wolf guard termies cause they are fun and nice looking models. We see enough grey hunter spam list so I always try something else.

Most of the time I put a wolf guard with chainfist/thunderhammer with TDA in a unit of greyhunters for some extra survivability of the unit.

I play with redeemers or drop pods so this are the builds : 8 x GH with toys and one wolf guard in drop pod or 10 GH with the wolf guard in a redeemer.

Sometimes they will die quick ( bad dice day ) but most of the time they save me more wounds with 2+/3++ armour save instead of a greyhunter will do, plus they are a scoring unit. Most games they save plasmashots etc,... what normally will cost me 5 greyhunters ( 75pts ) so for me its worth the points. ( if they don't die stupidly )

 

As HQ I use a wolf lord in TDA with claw,stormshield,wolftooth,meltabomb and saga of the bear ( 220 pts ) Yes he' s expensive but fun to play with, again something different from the rune priest spam. Opponents appreciate the style I play wolves. Lone wolves in TDA are also fun, WS5 dudes with feel no pain and eternal warior ; )

Its also fun to name your characters you will have with the wolf guard and HQ units.

 

This is the list I will try next tournament:

 

HQ

 

Wolf lord " dentonir " ( terminator armour,wolf claw,storm shield,wolftoothnecl,saga of the bear,meltabombs ) 220pts

Wolf priest " infato " ( terminator armour ) 120pts

 

TROOPS

 

10 x greyhunters ( wolfstandard/2 x meltagun/mark of wulfen ) + rhino 215pts

10 x greyhunters ( wolfstandard/2 x meltagun ) 165pts

10 x greyhunters ( wolfstandard/2 x plasmagun/mark of wulfen ) + rhino 220pts

 

ELITES

 

Wolf guard 280pts

- "arjacto" terminator armour/"chainhammer"*/stormshield (63) * count as chainfist

- "bul khatos" terminator armour/thunder hammer/stormshield (63)

- "zakarum" terminator armour/dual wolf claws (48)

- "ulrik" terminator armour/dual wolf claws (48)

- "hagar" terminator armour/"frosthammer"*/stormshield (58) * count as frost weapon

 

HEAVY SUPPORT

 

Land raider redeemer ( multimelta, extra armour ) 265pts

Land raider redeemer ( multimelta, extra armour ) 265pts

 

1750pts

[Grey Mage]

I do think they would be realy good if you held them back and not started with them. Because then there would be less guns around when they do show up. It seems like the best place for them to be is in CC. (And they can get 2 hand weaponds, 2 attacks to begin with, that is 3 attack with 4 on the charge or counter charge.) They would be rather nifty with a mix of ranged/melle.

 

Your right, coming in later could be very effective- and a good commander knows wich pods to drop first. The problem is theyre so expensive Im fighting with fewer points on the ground, and theyre non-scoring.

 

Still, Your right, and I think Ill give them a chance the next time Im running 1750 or higher with a pod list- I did just get another box of them at my b-day party, might as well use them.

[Wysten]

Reserving stuff is generally a iffy idea for some armies though, explosing some of your army to all of their army has their risks, unless you use it to put them at awkward postions. The reason wolfguard are great is that they can be tooled to shoot effectively and have wolf claws which are really are a stepup over lightning claws. But to tool them out like full combat termies makes them considerably more expensive then their equilents. A wolf claw with stormbolter/combi termie is still more expensive then a standard twin claw or hammernator, so better make use of both quailitys or your wasting both.

 

While a Wolf Guard is more expensive then a grey hunter, they have quailitys that make them better. Anyone ever tried just givng them combi weapons and running them like Grey Hunters, but better weapon quaility?