HELP! Wolves vs BA...

[Canis Majoris]

Ok i really need help here...

 

I just cannot beat my mates blood angels army...this is probably mainly due to the fact that hes been playing 40k since he was 15 and i have been playing fantasy since i was 10...we're both 27 now and i've just started playing 40k...its soooooooo much different....

 

I just can't seem to alter my playing tactics to be effective in 40k...

 

He just seems to slaughter me all the time last time in a 2k battle i was wiped out and all i did was destroy one dred and take the arm off another...those stupid blood talon dreds...

 

Logan grimnar just did nothing to mephiston he died in one round of combat...

 

HEEEELLLPPPPP ;)

[thade]

That's funny; as a BA player I'd only pit Mephiston against Logan for the thrill of it - statistically, Meph is likely to lose that fight, even all tanked up on his powers.

 

Alright. Here's what I'd do to beat me (a BA player) were I you (a SW player).

 

Bring Njal and kite Meph around with him. Njal's staff will keep Meph frustrated and benign for much of the game.

 

Is he a jump troop army? Gun line up and fire on him, keeping your assault-kitted units close behind your lines to counter charge in when you get hit. If you can charge him, do it: denying him the charge bonus attack will be helpful to you.

 

Is he using Death Company? Bring them down fast. Put enough bolter rounds into them and they'll go down.

 

Ground his transports as early as you can, esp Storm Ravens as they might deliver that annoying Blood Talon Dread. Long Fangs with MLs are great for this.

 

Blood Talon Dreds are devestating vs infantry but only Str 6 so vs vehicles it's not so impressive...so get your own Dread into an assault with it and tear him apart.

 

If he's dumb enough to charge his Sanguine Priests into combat with the rest of his lines (or, if he's a jump troop army, likely they're flying around outside), focus them down. Get models into BtB with them in the assault and kill them. Focus fire the units they're in to try and wipe or break them. The priests give them Furious Charge and FNP, which is what you want to take away from them.

 

You can also ignore FNP with plasma weaponry, which as a wolf player you can pump your tac squads full of (well you can give them each two if you fill them out, iirc). I recommend it.

 

What other gear is he using that's giving you trouble?

[Canis Majoris]

He changes his army every single battle...hes got around 20k of BA's...he has pretty much limitless combinations and never uses the same army twice in a row so i can never tell what to prepare for...

 

hes got a caestus assault ram thingy to which he uses from time to time...not encountered a stormraven yet...

 

last battle we had he deployed 3 death company...thats 3 models...that was his deployment...

 

i then deployed and got drop podded and flanked and lost both my long fang squads and a dred in his turn 1...

[Hellios]

He changes his army every single battle...hes got around 20k of BA's...he has pretty much limitless combinations and never uses the same army twice in a row so i can never tell what to prepare for...

 

hes got a caestus assault ram thingy to which he uses from time to time...not encountered a stormraven yet...

 

last battle we had he deployed 3 death company...thats 3 models...that was his deployment...

 

i then deployed and got drop podded and flanked and lost both my long fang squads and a dred in his turn 1...

 

Have you tried making lists and then telling each other before the game... so you can't change your list but you can make a plan... if he can play anything but you are limited to certain units he has an advantage of knowing what is coming... personally I think SWs can outshoot BA and out do them in combat all in the same list... what BA have is speed.

 

Also if he is using forge world things like the assault ram and the lucius pattern drop pods... they can be pretty broken against any player... but against a a fairly new player it is a little mean :'( as those units are badly balanced points wise at best and totally broken at worse.

[thade]

Um, the Caestus Assault thingy is very likely a counts-as Storm Raven? Unless you're using Imperial Armor rules, which I don't recommend. I mean, they're cool, but...yea. Learn the normal game first. <3 Hellios is right. It's not very nice of him to use Apoc/IA crap on you. Ask him to play his straight codex. Also, play small-ish point value games with him to learn the game and your army, as well as his. Try a few 1k games, then some 1.5ks. Work up to the 1850 standard.

 

BAs are all about getting in your face as soon as possible. SWs are all about standing there and daring you to charge them. Rock out with that. Get the charge if you can, but if you can't, just enjoy your Counter-Charge USR. Try things. Try using your empty Rhinos and weaponless-tanks to not only Tank Shock! him, but to form blockades/walls to corral him and/or slow him down.

 

Why don't you post for us either one of your favorite army lists that you've tried, or what units you can field if you have less than 2k worth. We'll help you figure something out.

 

I don't mean to encourage you to crosspost, but it can't hurt to ask for general advice regarding your SW units in the SW form either. Those guys in there are all about helping out "young pups" as they'll call you. =)

[Grey Mage]

I found being a fantasy player helped me when it came to 40k- I already understood how important Core was, the need for good deployment strategy, and the value of having a balanced army.

 

Dont worry bloodclaw, well get you set to rights.

 

So... hes got alot of stuff, and you dont know what to take to counter it? Good. Get rid of the idea of taking anything specificly tailored to his army or any other right now. Its a bad way to play if you can avoid it, because most people end up using that knowledge as a crutch. Instead lets concentrate on making a versatile army that can handle anyone, be they BA, Nidz, Eldar, or Orks. Sound good?

 

Now, Grey Hunters are the core of your force. Theyre S/T4, wich doesnt mean as much as it did in fantasy, but its still nothing to sneeze at. They also supply wounds, scoring, bolter-fire, and a good amount of CC ability. If Saurus Warriors had Bows theyd be Grey Hunters. Put them in a rhino and theyre mobile, and protected from anything thats not atleast S5. Drop Pods alternatively put you right in the action, right now, but provide little in the way of defense. Footslogging is the hardest to pull off, but it can be done too. I dont reccommend it for a new player though. Id never pay more than 250pts for a 10 man unit of GHs, and I always take 1 per 500pts of the force- sometimes more. Tanks, landspeeders, thunderwolves.... they win fights, Grey Hunters win you games.

 

Heroes: You have to have one, might as well get a good one right?

 

Wolf Lords are expensive, but theyre arguably the best close combat marines in the game. A WL with equipment will often be 200pts, and Ive seen some as high as 300. Not recommended for small games, as about 50pts of equipment brings them up to 'basic' status and 100 makes them excellent. On a Thunderwolf Mount a Wolf Lord beats down the daemon princes of chaos, and overwhelms ork warbosses out of hand.

 

Wolf Gaurd Battle Leaders (WGBL) are smaller versions of Wolf Lords, with many of the same options. They lack the ability to take a handless invulnerable (ward) save, so stormshields are a very common sight. Still, in smaller games he can go toe to toe with marine commanders of any stripe.

 

Suggested Loadouts- Frostblade and BP or SS, or twin Wolf Claws and- belt of russ for a Lord, Wolf tail Talisman and Meltabombs for either. Gives you good all around infantry demolisher who can tackle most larger creatures like hive tyrants etc with minimal help.

 

Wolf Priest- Similar to the Chaplains of other armies, this guy comes stock with a power weapon, invulnerable save, and makes his unit fearless. I suggest against other marines making his unit have prefered enemy 'infantry' as that will help you against the most foes. A very simple unit, but he helps out bloodclaws enormously- their large number of attacks syngergising with his rerolls.

 

Suggested Loadouts- as is, or with Runic Armor, Plasma Pistol, and Wolf Tail Talisman.

 

Rune Priest- this guy is the bread and butter of most SW armies these days, after a decade of being a a third string choice. Why? Because hes got a very potent psychic defense in that runic weapon, and his powers are potent. Another HQ thats very good 'out of the box'. I certainly reccommend taking one against your BA playing friend, especially if he likes librarians or librarian dreadnaughts.

 

Suggested Loadouts- as is, possibly Meltabombs or a Chooser of the Slain if your opponents tend to take infiltrators.

 

Powers- Tempests Wrath is a game changer. Difficult and Dangerous Terrain for all skimmers, jump packers, and deep strikers within 24" of the priest? Heck yes. Destroy the mobility of armies faster than yours, cut down their unit sizes, and all without really lifting a finger.

 

Living Lightning- often enjoyed for its high rate of fire and unlimited range, this super autocannon is a great offensive power.

 

Stormcaller- a 5+ cover save is useful, and remember it helps your rhinos and landraiders too! wich makes it great for mech lists.

 

Murderious Hurricane- good against horde armies, dark eldar, and anything that might not have grenades, like terminators. Hit a squad of genestealers with this and watch them be ripped apart as they hit at I1.

 

Thunderclap- just about worthless. Im tempted to say firing his bolt pistol would be more useful, if only it could be used in CC.

 

Jaws of the World Wolf- Overrated. Really overrated. Its one of those spells that either goes big or does nothing- and most of the high value targets you want to hit with it, like say heros or monstrous creatures, are going to save very reliably.

 

Fury of the Wolf Spirits- not a bad power, but lacks focus and is generally outshown by the the utility of the other offensive powers.

 

At 1750-2kpts I reccommend taking two heroes, one of them a Rune Priest. At 1500 or less Id put that as the glass ceiling of making an effective force, and reccommend only a single HQ choice for most games. Good place to work them in are 5 man grey hunter squads in razorbacks, small units of wolf gaurd, or in large units of bloodclaws in a landraider- especially wolf priests. This concludes our lesson on heroes.

 

So, before I bore you to death, would you like to talk about mech armies, drop podding armies, or footslogging armies as your focus? Of course, you can mix or match but just about any army will fit into one of these categories- the notable exception is called 'loganwing' by many, and involves taking Logan Grimnar and alot of wolf gaurd.

[Hellios]

You also get Wolf lists... Thunder Wolves and wolf packs.. with a few mounted GHs to back them up...

[Grey Mage]

This is true, I tend to forget them when talking to new players... the bitz can be a real expense and pain to get, but yeah, theyre there.

[Hellios]

This is true, I tend to forget them when talking to new players... the bitz can be a real expense and pain to get, but yeah, theyre there.

 

It isn't so bad when you collect High elves and your brother collects Orcs & Goblins in fantasy :P but the point is conceded.

[Canis Majoris]

i think i'd like a list for 1500 and 2000 that is balanced and can handle a bit of everything. my problem is i tend to take units because i like them not cos they are the best for the job...i love dreds for example.

[Grey Mage]

Nothing wrong with dreadnaughts! Theyre one of my favorite units. Great in Drop Pod (DP) armies.

 

I like- Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armor, Wolf Tail Talisman, Drop Pod- 170pts. Or sub the AC for a Multimelta.... :lol:. Against Blood Angels it would also be worth it to take the plasma cannon- gain some range, lose some versatility, bypass their FNP saves.

 

So, dont take wolf gaurd- theyre overrated. Take a pair of dreads and some wolf scouts. Ill come back and give you some tips on scouts, but dinner is apparently Now

 

Edit:

 

Ok, so There seems to be three real philosphies about Wolf Scouts- Small and cheap, small and expensive, and big.

 

Small and Cheap- givem a meltagun and a plasmapistol or powerweapon, five strong- runs 100pts, kills tanks, ties up heavy weapon teams, is a general nuisance and always makes its points back. This is my prefered setup because its cheap and killy, just how I like it.

 

Small and Expensive- Still five strong, givem all meltabombs, a meltagun, maybe a pack leader... they gain alot of killing power, but the points add up very quickly.

 

Big- 10 strong, maybe with a pack leader and/or wolf priest. This unit walks in from the board and eats something for breakfast... and often costs more than a landraider.

 

Now, against blood angels you have to decide wich of these to take- I reccommend cheap and killy, to take on heavy weapon teams or walk in and meltagun a flanking tank.

 

Theres a fourth, more rarely seen version of Wolf Scouts- ranged. They dont OBEL, they infiltrate, and they are usually armed with sniper rifles and a missile launcher. I cant vouch for their effectiveness, as Ive never seen them in action, but the tales in the Fang show they dont cause nearly as much havoc as their more short ranged brethren.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Ooh, a chance for more discussion ;)

 

This is said in mind of "and can handle a bit of everything" which I assume means for more than just BA bashing....

 

Jaws of the World Wolf- Overrated. Really overrated. Its one of those spells that either goes big or does nothing- and most of the high value targets you want to hit with it, like say heros or monstrous creatures, are going to save very reliably.

 

At 1750-2kpts I reccommend taking two heroes, one of them a Rune Priest. At 1500 or less Id put that as the glass ceiling of making an effective force, and reccommend only a single HQ choice for most games. Good place to work them in are 5 man grey hunter squads in razorbacks, small units of wolf gaurd, or in large units of bloodclaws in a landraider- especially wolf priests. This concludes our lesson on heroes.

 

LL is gold. It works against Light to Medium AV and all infantry.

 

I think JotWW is actually a good spell, but should not be your primary one.

 

1st witch: LL and X

2nd witch: LL and JotWW

3rd witch: LL and Y

 

Against Orks, Necrons, Guard, Nids, Daemons and Tau, you have the whole list that has average to poor initiative.

Nobz are choice targets, at some 40+ pts when decked out. Orks are numerous and slow.

Necrons are expensive and slow.

Guard are numerous.

Nids are numerous and have choice targets.

Daemons have choice targets.

Tau are slow.

 

There will crop up times when your foe is in a convenient clump and you can get to affect enough guys to make it better value than LL.

 

Whilst not a replacement, it is a good doubles act that keeps your foe honest [by making him avoid lines or close clumps] and really cashes in on those armies mentioned.

 

Even against the Eldars, you will have chances to take things out.

 

JotWW is a neat doubles act with flamers and blast markers. String out and Jaws gets you. Bunch up and the templates get you. ;)

 

Tempest's wrath is much more specialised, which is fine if you are allowed to, but in tourney play, you are banking on facing Bloods [jumpers variant] Daemons, Tau and Eldars. At least JotWW can be used against anyone. TW relies on such things coming towards you to work.

 

I haven't found hero hammer to be that great. I know you like Wolf Lords, but an Emperor's Champion or Marshal can do everything they can [at up to, say 170 pts] before TWM gets added into the equation. Can't beat being turn into a Daemon PrinceEq :P

200+ pts buys you 3 TWC or 10 Greys and Rhino. Would the ThunderLord match that for kill output and durability? I think only if they were hiding in amongst other TWC. Why not buy another TWC pack ;)

Unless of course you only have so many models :P

 

I think Rune priests are the real power behind the throne. A Wolf Priest can get targeted as an IC and his pack loses OoW should he be slain, which at i4 and 2w, he can be.

 

Nothing wrong with dreadnaughts! Theyre one of my favorite units. Great in Drop Pod (DP) armies.

 

I like- Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armor, Wolf Tail Talisman, Drop Pod- 170pts. Or sub the AC for a Multimelta.... :).

 

So, dont take wolf gaurd- theyre overrated. Take a pair of dreads and some wolf scouts. Ill come back and give you some tips on scouts, but dinner is apparently Now

 

I much prefer Speeders to Scouts. The Scouts are able to lock a Dev squad up, which can be invaluable, I'll admit. However, the Scouts MUST come in from a board edge, and so can only MELTA something within 12" of the edge. The Speeder can land 'anywhere' on the TT and also has a 12" MELTA range. Once they've both entered play, the Scouts meander 6" per turn and fire their Mg another 12", for 18" overall. The Speeder moves 12" and fires its MM 24", for 36" overall.

 

The Speeder can also boogey 24" to contest an Objective, whilst the Scouts sweat out 7-12" at a run.

 

Then the Speeder has a HF too. Delicious grilled infantry. Synchronise that with a tank shock from a buddy Rhino, and its a BBQ smorgasboard. I have killed 14 Ard boyz to one HF *whoosh*