Nonconservative army building

[Void Master]

My list is a bit on the light side in terms of armour (in fact, at the moment it's got a grand total of one rhino, and that's gonna get blown off the table in no time). So I've been thinking of kicking Njal out, taking a bog standard rune priest and buying a bucketload more rhinos. Question is, can I give a rhino to a wolf guard squad that doesn't exist as such (meaning I've dispersed all its members along my other units). And because this question will probably be answered in no time, here's two more things to discuss -

 

My list roughly looks as follows at the moment:

 

Bike Wolflord (still tinkering with the equipment, but I'm liking the idea of wolf claw, storm shield and warrior born as the main features)

 

Njal

 

30 odd footslogging grey hunters in 3 squads, one of which has the rhino at the moment. One squad has a wolfguard with cyclone

5 with wolf guard and melta in a drop pod to take out armour

5 wolf scouts with wolf guard to take out armour (combi melta, meltagun)

 

2 squads of 4 swiftclaws, 2 attack bikes and 2 wolf guard

 

that's about it, at the moment, at 1750 points.

 

This is a very small army, and I'm wondering a few things. For starters, the longest range and remotely anti tank in this list is the cyclone, which isn't exactly enough, methinks.

Now I've been thinking of dropping Njal, as I said before, and getting transports. Preferably 1 more rhino, and 2 razorbacks. One of the razorbacks will go to the grey hunters that has the wolf guard terminator seeing as they can't get on board any transport (is that legal, btw?), and the other will go to said wolf guard unit that doesn't technically exist. Loadout of the razorbacks will probably be las/plas or TLLC.

Thing is, is this enough armour? This should at least give my opponent something to shoot at for a while, and meanwhilie my bikers, wolf scouts and the drop pod hunters will take out long range tanks like hammerheads, and then work their way down the threat list, if they survive.

 

The foot slogging doesn't appear too much of a problem to me (after reading my explanation, please tell me what you think on this topic). In objective based games, I will make sure there are at least 2, preferably 3 objectives close together in the middle of the board that I can go for, preferably in cover as well, and then try to get the other ones as far away from everything else as possible. This way my opponent has to commit troops to chasing after those other ones if he wants them, and no troops choice can put up with my bikers as far as I'm aware. If instead they try to go for "my" objectives, well then they've got a bucketload of grey hunters to deal with. In killpoint games it's slightly different, but still not a huge problem - if my opponent wants some, he's going to have to come get some. Imperial gun lines could be trouble (or those pesky castling marines, imperial fists etc.) but I think that if I present enough threats and multi-assault with my bikers, I'll be able to close the distance quickly enough.

 

Thoughts? am I missing something terribly obvious here?

[LPetersson]

Question is, can I give a rhino to a wolf guard squad that doesn't exist as such (meaning I've dispersed all its members along my other units). And because this question will probably be answered in no time, here's two more things to discuss -

 

Bike Wolflord (still tinkering with the equipment, but I'm liking the idea of wolf claw, storm shield and warrior born as the main features)

 

One of the razorbacks will go to the grey hunters that has the wolf guard terminator seeing as they can't get on board any transport (is that legal, btw?),

 

Thoughts? am I missing something terribly obvious here?

 

Yes, you can buy a Rhino for the WG squad that is distributed to your other squads. Don't think of the squad as non-existent, think of it as a squad where they join another unit to lead them just before the battle.

 

If you're getting the Wolf Lord wo run around and get into CC you should consider getting him a TWM instead. True S5/T5 is very nice and with fleet he has a potential 24" range.

 

Yes, you can buy a transport for a squad that won't actually fit in it as they don't have to start in the transport.

[Void Master]

About the thunderwolf lord... I don't have any models, and seeing as the bikers are an integral part of my army, I'd have him running around on his own, in which case he'd eat a bucketload of anti tank fire and probably won't survive very long at all. As a biker, he's slightly less survivable but at the same time in a pack. Plus I find the idea of several hundred kilograms of space marines riding around on what is essentially an overdeveloped poodle. It just looks odd.

 

Any thoughts on the other questions/thoughts in my original post?

[Grey Mage]

Id take a Dread to knock out armor instead of the Wolf Gaurd, but thats just me.

 

I think a Biker Lord would be a fine way to go for your HQ choices, and rhinos for your GH teams.

 

Though Ill note that if your podding a squad of wolf gaurd, you could always throw Njal in with them and increase their survivability a bit, maybe even take a pair of terminators with SS+PW to round out the squad.

 

Of course, if you want to go with the footslogging more then... well, Id reccommend getting two packs of Long Fangs for a start, and some landspeeders to make sure you have guns in the right spots at the right time.

[Void Master]

Changed the topic title to maybe get some more attention... who reads rules questions these days :lol:

 

Though Ill note that if your podding a squad of wolf gaurd, you could always throw Njal in with them and increase their survivability a bit, maybe even take a pair of terminators with SS+PW to round out the squad.

 

Are you suggesting I take a squad of wolfguard? at the moment I don't have one. The drop podding squad is a grey hunter squad with melta and an attached wolfguard with combimelta. I'm not too sold on wolf guard as units because they only work as terminators from my experience, and then they need a crusader to deliver them, and one crusader on its own doesn't survive long, so you need another one, and then that list quickly becomes one I don't really want to play.

 

Id take a Dread to knock out armor instead of the Wolf Gaurd, but thats just me.

 

As I said, it's not a wolf guard squad but you actually just gave me a very good idea :tu: I think I might replace those fellas with a dreadought with... multimelta and autocannon? That way I can get 4 8 strong GH packs with attached wolf guard as my main line. Thanks for that.

 

Id reccommend getting two packs of Long Fangs for a start

 

I've been wanting some of those for a long time. I love foot slogging, plus even with the rhinos they'd be footslooging before long anyway. I would have to drop Njal for a normal rune priest which is what I'm considering anyway... I'll come up with something and post it for further thoughts.

[Void Master]

So this is basically what I've come up with after some thinking...

 

8 Grey hunters: wolf standard, meltagun, Rhino

8 Grey hunters: wolf standard, plasma gun, Rhino

8 Grey hunters: wolf standard, plasma gun, Rhino

8 Grey hunters: wolf standard, plasma gun, Rhino

 

Dreadnought: multimelta, twin linked auto cannon, drop pod (I figure this guy has a pretty decent chance of taking out most armour that's sitting back to shoot at me)

 

5 Wolf scouts with melta (and possibly meltabombs to make sure that armour goes down)

 

4 Swiftclaws, with attack bike and flamer

4 Swiftclaws with attack bike and flamer

 

Wolf guard - 2 on bike with power fist

1 in TDA with assault cannon and power fist (considering making it a chainfist if I find some spare points)

1 with combimelta (goes with the scouts)

1 with powerfist and meltagun

 

Rune priest -Jaws, tempests wrath

Wolf lord - Bike, storm shield, wolf claw, warrior born, wolftooth necklace, meltabombs (this guy will cut through just about anything... just have to stay clear of power fists and thunder hammers. Not sure whether I should swap warrior born for saga of the bear)

 

So I'm pretty happy with this list... any thoughts?

What I am considering doing is to swap all the rhinos for a squad of 5 long fangs with either missile launchers or heavy bolters. The problem that leaves me with is that we're back to being on foot...

 

Thoughts?

[Grey Mage]

Why remove the DCCW for a TLAC if your going to pod him? I think giving him a heavy flamer would be a better bet- then he can also fry infantry squads, like say 10 tau firewarriors.

 

Also... why 8 man squads? And why do you have one wolf gaurd in TDA? Whats he going to do?

[Void Master]

The idea behind the autocannon was that if that multimelta misses (and I can see that happen... constantly), and I'm only shooting at, say basilisks or something I'd have a bit of a backup. Then again, the heavy flamer gives some flexibility depending on where he's needed, but at the same time keeping the CCW and getting a HF both assumes he'll live after being dropped in to kill something (I am of course hoping he will, and I'm guessing that if I choose carefully where I put him he's got a pretty good chance...). I think I'll try out both, for good measure but good you pointed that out, I hadn't even thought of that.

 

8 man squads is because... well I'm not really sure. I wanted a 4th troop choice, but I am missing out on free special weapons of course which on second thought is of course not a very good thing :devil: The one wolf guard in TDA is going to go with one of the grey hunter packs, which I might atually redo to have 3 packs of 10 with two speical weapons each, one squad will have 2 plasma guns and they'll be getting the wolf guard in TDA. Makes their rhino useless, of course, but mainly I want those rhinos to have something to hide behind, and for some mobility to catch elusive targets. Plus if I have some surplus rhinos, it means thate even after 2 have been blown up, 2 of my grey hunter packs will still have transports. Now that I'm saying this, it all doesn't sound as good as it did at first... still trying to sort this out...

[Grimtooth]

My first thought was to give your biker lord Saga of the Bear instead. This would make him immune to instant death while retaining a T5 for purposes of dealing wounds on him.

[Void Master]

That's what I've been thinking too. Instant kills are just too annoying (ever since Yriel bit the dust to an assault cannon I've been allergic to them...). Then he'll be seriously low on attacks, though, so a power fist would be in order... or a thunder hammer if I can spare the points.

 

One other thing I've come up with is that for 120 points I can get 2 packs of 3 long fangs with heavy bolters... they can split or concentrate fire as needs be, no squad leader required to split fire. Plus at 60 points a pop they are severely expendable, but at the same time a pretty heavy threat so they'll draw attention away from my main force... ludicrous idea or am I onto something here? If I then also take 2 razorbacks, thats an awful lot of heavy bolters. They'll be mighty useful gunning down dark eldar tanks, nids and even rid me nicely of marines. With 24 heavy bolter shots a turn, someone's going to fail their armour save...

[the jeske]

and shoting 12-15 RL would mean they would do cover only.

 

I agree with all mage said , but also have a question . how do you get a MM and auto canon on the same dread at the same time , did I miss something in codex SW ? anyway a rifle man would be a far better adition to the army[2 xtwin Auto Canons] it would cover your love for mulit shoting and would also help with the anti tank/anti transport aspect .

I dont think it is possible to fit dreads , WS and two units of bikers in to the same list . Decide on one or two of those and remove the others. 2 rifle man will work great ,droping dread/WS will give you more options [babysiters for example or more LF] for your swift claws.

 

ah even if the Swift claws are a mulit task unit , I dont think they work well enough without WGs and/or babysiters . their shoting is not realy the most idea and if you realy want to use flamers it greatly increases the chance of hth . personaly I would rather run one bigger 5+WG unit[and of course the lord] then two smaller ones .

[Void Master]

and shoting 12-15 RL would mean they would do cover only

 

not sure what you mean by that... care to elaborate?

 

how do you get a MM and auto canon on the same dread at the same time , did I miss something in codex SW

 

Yep, you can replace the CCW with either TLML or a TLAC. It's probably not done very well in the codex because the options for the CCW arms are split in two, some come before and some come after the options for the shooty arm.

 

Double TLAC... tasty. That would also save me having to drop pod the fellow in because the range is high enough that I can just deploy him behind something and then start blasting away... beauty.

 

droping dread/WS will give you more options [babysiters for example or more LF] for your swift claws.

 

The wolf scouts have to stay because I've seen them be truly nasty... a second unit of them and bikers is also something to consider... boy thats a lot of options I have to sort out now. Good point about them not working well together, though. The dread, being the biggest armoured threat will probably have to eat all the railguns, meltas and so forth so it won't survive long. Double wolf scout packs is a great option, acually. That way behind enemy lines is bound to work at least once.

 

As for the rest of your comments... I should probably repost my list properly because at the moment everyone gets the wrong idea...

[the jeske]

not sure what you mean by that... care to elaborate?

RL do not cost a lot and anything with sv+3 or higher only saves cover from them , they are better at guning down transports or stuning tanks [str 8 vs str 5] , if someone realy goes horde crazy they can use frags . unless you play some sort of special scenario , hvy bolters in LF squads are not good.

[Grey Mage]

Jeske, I think he was confused by your use of "RL" instead of "ML", wich is likely what hes used to hearing. That is if Im getting this right and your talking about using 3 squads of long fangs with missile launchers, quiaff?

[Void Master]

Ah, well missile launchers makes more sense. It's tempting to grab some of those to be sure. Most likely what I'd do is stick with one pack plus squad leader, all with ML (where does RL come from?) to gun down MC and light(ish) vehicles. I figure a salvo of 5 has even a decent chance of stopping a demolisher from shooting... If I'm going to go for those, I would probably also take two dreads with twin linked autocannons to help out some more with shooting down transports.

 

So this is the list I'm thinking of going for at the moment:

 

Wolf lord (storm shield, power fist, wolftooth necklace, wolftail talisman, bike, saga of the bear) - 240

 

Runepriest (Jaws of the world wolf, Tempest's wrath, wolftooth necklace, WT talisman) - 115

 

5 GH - plasmagun, razorback - 125

Unit has a wolfguard with power fist, combimelta and meltabombs

 

5 GH - plasmagun, razorback - 125

Runepriest goes with these

 

9 GH - plasmagun, wolf standard, Rhino - 205

Unit has a wolfguard with powerfist, combimelta and meltabombs

 

10 GH - 2 meltas, wolf standard, Rhino - 200

 

4 Swiftclaws - Flamer - 135

1 Attack bike

Unit has a wolfguard on bike with powerfist

 

4 Swiftclaws - Flamer - 135

1 Attack bike

Unit has a wolfguard on bike with powerfist

 

5 Wolf scouts - melta - 85

Unit has a wolf guard with combimelta and meltabombs

 

5 wolf scouts - melta - 85

Unit has a wolf guard with combimelta and meltabombs

 

Wolf guard pack - 298

 

It took a lot of tinkering to come up with this... I really want to playtest it, but at the same time, I can't help but wonder if there is anything I missed?

 

The other thing I'm currently debating is this - I've spent 150 odd points on transports. There has been a suggestion to take Longfangs in this list, and I would like a pack with 5 missile launchers very much. This fits pretty much exactly into the points I'm currently spending on transports. I'm not too sold on an entire army that walks around the board, but I think it's worth asking whether anyone reckons those 150 points are better off spent on some missile launchers.

 

EDIT - it's also almost the price of 10 skyclaws... even more tempation...

 

Any other comments?

 

Oh, and one question - I am assuming that WT talismans stack with runic weapons? Otherwise of course it'd be making no sense to allow rune priests to have one, but at the same time I can see some frustrated nid players object because this means that their zoanthrophes are essentially a liability and not much besides. Is there something somewhere that I've missed with a ruling that goes one way or another? just so I know what to say when someone does go lawyer on me.

[the jeske]

all with ML (where does RL come from?)

missile launcher < rocket launcher . been like that since 2ed. using the M word curses your hvy weapon teams.

 

 

frustrated nid players object because this means that their zoanthrophes are essentially a liability and not much besides

I dont think you should worry about that. a nid player has more problems then just not being able to use psychic powers against SW or not being able to use a lot of his rules when playing against them [infiltration , SotW etc] .

 

 

Runepriest (Jaws of the world wolf, Tempest's wrath, wolftooth necklace, WT talisman) - 115

he realy does not need that. shouldnt be in hth anyway , specialy as he is hanging out with a 5 man squad and a 5 man meq squad should try to avoid hth at all cost . [unless it is 3 guardsman or something like that , but then again you dont need neck] .

 

 

as LF goes . if you plan on runing a single unit dont , it is the same as trying to run a single rifle man dread. wont work very good[even if LF would do it better then any other devastor-class unit].

 

by the way I dont like the half hearted try at a razor build either you spam them and LF or you take rhinos and do a normal mecha.

 

I wouldnt also mix assault and rapid fire weapons on same models . So if the 5 man has a plas the WG gets a plas too.

[WG Vrox]

Wolf lord (storm shield, power fist, wolftooth necklace, wolftail talisman, bike, saga of the bear) - 240

 

I would highly suggest a Thunder Hammer if you are wanting an I-1 HQ. the ability to bring down what it is you are attacking to I-1 with you means at least you will get another round of combat against higher Int foes, well worth the extra points.

 

5 GH - plasmagun, razorback - 125

Unit has a wolfguard with power fist, combimelta and meltabombs

 

Very little need for Melta Bombs if you have a PF, put the 5 points toward the Thunderhammer.

 

5 GH - plasmagun, razorback - 125

Runepriest goes with these

 

Consider moving your RP to the Rhino unit, being able to cast shooting abilities out of a Rhino's fire port is much better than standing in one place and weathering the storm of enemy return fire; especially with the powers you have chosen. Putting him on a bike would also be a good choice.

[Void Master]

Thunderhammer on the lord is slightly difficult because as it stands, my list is 1748 points, so I don't have the points for him. I could go back to the wolf claw, but I feel with so little attacks he's not going to have the impact I'm hoping for. The only thing that could possibly mitigate this is getting warrior born and making him wipe out rank and file by himself, but again even if only one power fist survives, he's likely going to see the emperor up close sooner rather than later.

 

I agree with your sentiment about the razorbacks. Removing them also gave me 10 more points, and after some more tinkering this is what I came up with:

 

Runepriest - Jaws, Wrath, WT talisman - 105

 

Wolf Lord - Bike, Fist, Shield, WT necklace, WT talisman, Saga of the Bear - 240

 

10 GH - 2 Plasma guns, Rhino - 195

9 GH - Wolf standard, Rhino, Melta - 185 (Wolf guard with power fist)

9 GH - Wolf standard, Rhino, Melta - 185 (Wolf guard with power fist)

5 GH - Plasma gun, Rhino (Rune priest goes here)

 

What I'm thinking is that the rune priest will hang back slightly, together with the 10 GH with plasma guns, form a firebase. Neither of the squads desperately needs a wolf standard (I just can't seem to find the points for them anywhere) because they'll have to avoid combat as much as possible, maybe doing sime cleanup duties later in the game.

 

4 Bikes, Flamer - 135

1 Attack Bike (Wolf Guard with power fist)

 

4 Bikes, Flamer - 135

1 Attadck Bike (Wolf guard with power fist)

 

5 Wolf Scouts - 85

(Wolf guard with combimelta)

 

5 Wolf Scouts - 85

(wolf guard with combimelta)

 

Wolf guard pack - 268

 

I would very much like the points for at least one more wolf standard and the thunder hammer, but they are just nowhere to be found... One thing I am considering is dropping the WT talisman on the priest, hoping that few people will target him with psychic powers to get ther TH, but then again, that extra 5+ is almost too good to pass up.

 

Rune priest on bike would also be rather nice... but again, I simply don't have the points (at least I just can't see them) because most things are pretty bare bones already...

At least now my rune priest can cast his powers from inside the rhino rather than having to get out.

 

Thoughts?