how to make a "turtle" army ? ?

[7Thunders]

Hey folks.

i'm interested in trying a new direction with my crimson fists.

 

latley i have fallen to the trend of trying to drag race my units

across the tabletop,grab the objective,and then try and attempt

to deal with my opponent.

 

After losing my arse big time the other day. I got to thinking about

my playstyle and how i view this game all-together.

 

I seem to be more comfortable in playing what i know.

 

what i know is more of a "TURTLE" Playstyle.

 

I'm interested in trying to make my army be able to

1. Have the opponent come to me

2. Be able to take the charge.and then hit back like a ton of bricks.

3. When the smoke does clear just take the objective by steam rolling them off

 

So,would anyone be willing to share,from their expierence what they

feel is the best suited units for this?

thanks

[minigun762]

My first thought is some version of the Rhino wall. Since you're loyalist, you can do this with Razorbacks too which add extra firepower.

 

Use your Rhinos as mobile walls, to both block LOS and deny easy charges. Hide squads inside them for further protection and firepower.

 

Tornado Typhoons would make a good support unit as they're able to hang back and knock out the big stuff and little stuff. Dreadnoughts would also be useful as you can bury them in your lines to help provide counter assault abilities while adding some long range firepower.

 

In the end, I think its pretty easy to do with Codex marines, but beware of making yourself too static. You still need some units to be fast enough to catch and hold objectives. Maybe play around with Drop Pods or Scout Speeder units coming in from reserve to claim things.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Triple vindicators. Although the codex may say it is a siege unit, really this piece of hardware performs best in the back field where you can place it strategically to get some cover saves. Wait for your enemy to come to you then shell the crap out of them.

 

Keep that in mind when using the stratagem of the turtle. A good defense needs some bite to it as well. Seeing as you are a Crimson Fist player, sternguard squads with Kantor will be a pretty effective when your enemy comes knocking at your door. They can rapid fire the turn before to whittle your enemy down, then with the extra cc attack from Pedro they can perform admirably in cc. Put them in rhinos for you possible steamroll.

 

I don't thik you're going to steamroll your opponent,t though. After a turtle unless you get really tactical AND lucky. You're going to need something to at least contest your opponent's objectives just in case you're still stuck in home field. I think a land speeder storm could do this properly with outflank for a last turn contest of their obj.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Against anyone other than Dark Eldar, the Thunderfire will make a decent addition to an Earth army. The Tremor rounds can slow down key rapid-strike units like Assault Squads and bikers. One will do, though -- Zynk made a good point with the Vindicators -- and a full-on Dakka Predator puts a pretty good amount of long-range firepower down range, too.

[7Thunders]

You know, these are all really good ideas :P

 

I already have 2 boxes of sternguard painted up and i

Use kantor as well.

 

I use a tri las predator already. I know its alot of points.

but damn i seem to hit just about anything i aim it at.

 

i also have a land raider that can be changed into a redeemer/ las.

would that be use full. ?

 

I like the ideas about the vindicators. But how often does the template

deviate or scatter from the target??

thats kind of one of the reasons why i have not used them.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

It will deviate, that's unavoidable. But its a big template and the average scatter is only going to be about three inches so you've got decent odds and still clipping your target.

[Octavulg]

Terminators might be useful. They've got a decent long-range weapon in the CML, they've got power fists, and they've got the best armor a normal infantry unit in the Marine list can have.

[spartan249]

Reality check: C:SM is not a primarily shooting army. It never will be. Turtling is a strategy reserved for armies that can apply a lot of their firepower at medium/long range. We have a handful of options that can attack from a long distance away, and most of those things are very weak. Medium range is sufficient, and short range is much better.

 

Turtling will only work on a very small number of enemies. Predominantly shooty enemies will obliterate you should you try this.

 

Just a friendly reminder.

[Hellios]

Reality check: C:SM is not a primarily shooting army. It never will be. Turtling is a strategy reserved for armies that can apply a lot of their firepower at medium/long range. We have a handful of options that can attack from a long distance away, and most of those things are very weak. Medium range is sufficient, and short range is much better.

 

Turtling will only work on a very small number of enemies. Predominantly shooty enemies will obliterate you should you try this.

 

Just a friendly reminder.

 

The good thing about this is... if you use Rhinos to turtle... you now have rhinos to get you into CC with shooty armies... but I agree that C:SM isn't the ideal dex... Guard are... although I also think Eldar could make a very fast turtle...

[7Thunders]

Well, seeing how i dont have a ton of battle expirience

i can see that advice would be good to.

 

of course i could just play Blood Angels i suppose

and be a total cheese head.. :)

 

Of course i would probably never have any friends left

:)

[thade]

Those of us who use the BA Codex here would disagree with you. =P As BA I can and have run effective porcupine lists where I'm mostly ranged shooting with a little assault flavor in the middle. I use it not as an army building strat as much as an army usage strat; it's how I deal with Eldar in particular, as they are fast-moving and good at segmenting my army into their shenanigans (i.e. pitting Warp Spiders against my Devestators, Dire Avengers against my Vanguard, Banshees against my ranged command squad, Fire Dragons against my LRs, etc). If I'm spread out, they have an easy time of it. If I'm porcupined up, they need to deal with my entire army to take out any single piece of it. I do this against the Green Tide too, though I keep my firebase moving and kite the horde so I don't get swamped until I'm ready to.

 

The Vanilla Dex is pretty good at shooting but falls short in one way: range. Effective marine range is 24", with a few notable exceptions (in particular, a smattering of your heavy weapons can fire at long range). So if you really wanted an Earth-tastic fire base, you could go with heavy-kitted Sternguard, shooty Dreads, Predators, and Devestator squads to max on range. I'm a fan of multiple Vindicators, but note their range is 24". Like your boltguns whether they stand still or disembark from a Cruising Speed transport. For a "turtle" army to work as marines you need a few things to stay true for you:

1. The Enemy has to have a reason to come to you, e.g. they're an assault army, you're sitting on an objective they need, etc.

2. You need to be ready to weather the assault that will come, so have an assault team or two behind your fire line ready to counter charge; at the very least, a CC kitted IC to lend a hand.

3. You need to deploy and position your army such that you bring them within your max effective range, which means you want to be at mid-table.

 

Rhino walls work well to give you makeshift cover (even as they get shot to pieces) or to corral your opponent. It's something to keep in mind while you try this out.

[minigun762]

The Vanilla Dex is pretty good at shooting but falls short in one way: range. Effective marine range is 24", with a few notable exceptions (in particular, a smattering of your heavy weapons can fire at long range).

 

A way around that might be to build an army that focuses on controlling the midfield instead of turtling up in your deployment area.

 

One good turn of moving should get you within range of the majority of your weapons and being in the middle makes it easier to claim other objectives and might provide some buffer against outflankers.

 

EDIT: If it wasn't clear, I was trying to support Thade's assessment of the situation.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

In some ways I kind of prefer the ideology of a turtle formation. If anything walks within its gun range it gets a nasty bite and the chance to be assaulted by multiple units, as well as prevents your army from being divided and crushed piece by piece.

 

But as stated vanilla marines cannot hang back so I think minigun has an excellent point in suggesting a mid field army, where marines work best. This I feel works out well as you arent stuck shooting or assaulting primarily, or worrying about how many troops to commit to a certain flank and operates within the marines optimum range.

 

I suppose the problems with keeping such a tight coherency is that templates can make multiple hits and that armies might well out manoeuvre you, but you take the rough with the smooth eh?

 

Either way it can certainly prevent certain units attacking exposed aspects of the army.

 

 

How would you go about making an army based for the midfield though?

[minigun762]

How would you go about making an army based for the midfield though?

 

I think you could do it a few ways.

 

Drop pods to claim the center early on and then move support units in Rhinos or armor up seems like the most fluffy and accurate to the background and the reserve drop pods can be used to claim objectives late in the game.

 

Or go with the mechanized bunker approach with a pair of Land Raiders backed up by Rhinos/Razorbacks/Dreadnoughts/Speeders. Use the Land Raiders as mobile anchors for your line and the smaller units can fill in the gaps.

[thade]

It can be pretty easy to claim mid-field if your army is mobilized (ie Rhinos and LRs).

 

Pitched Battle: deploy forward 12" in transports; move forward 12" on turn one. You're there.

Spearhead: deploy as far forward as you can along that center circle; you're basically there, move as you have to on Turn 1 to settle in.

Dawn of War: You can disregard deploymet here as either 1. you'll deploy and can give yourself a midfield bubble or 2. your opponent will deploy and worst case you have to move in. You're looking at Turn 2 to hit mid-table, but then again, so is your opponent.

 

EDIT: I should add that you may find yourself in assault range very quickly if you do this. You are a marine army, so you're not completely out of your element when this happens, however you can delay it in some cases. For instance, don't just deploy for mid-table; deploy so that you're 24" from your opponent. If he's getting the first turn, take his first turn movement into account. If his army is a gunline army too, you can deploy far forward. If his army wants to get up close and personal with yours, he'll prob move max distance during his first turn, so hold back 6" to 12".

[Gunslinger87]

Using land raiders as mobile bunkers for tactical squads with plasma cannons that jump in once low in strength, while termies debark and counter-assault, has always worked as a good defensive strategy for me. A powerful HQ attached to one of the squads or popping about to help where necessary from the other land raider(s) as well.

 

Rhinos are way too easy to kill if you want to use them for defense. Any decent ccw from a hoarde army or heavy weapon in a shooty army will pop 5 rhinos in 2 turns with no trouble at all... Maybe you will be left with some cover, but 4+ is already on the table in plenty without you having to spend points on units to be destroyed. (that is not saying that rhinos arent great... but as transports... definitely not walls)

[7Thunders]

Ok, let me add my 2 cents here. :devil:

 

what if: i use a drop pod with a full tactical squad.

drop it mid-field.

 

after that, use land raiders to come forward, with

termies and maybe some sternguard? ?.

 

2 questions though:

A) what type of land raider is best?

:( would assault termies work?

 

I think that after the main force arrives, any tactical

marines left should be able to head for objectives.

 

or is my thinking flawed?

 

I'm thinking i should add some speeders as well?

[thade]

what if: i use a drop pod with a full tactical squad.

drop it mid-field.

 

after that, use land raiders to come forward, with

termies and maybe some sternguard? ?.

 

If it's a scoring game, your opponent will gun down the Tacticals asap. Single DPs are reputed to not be great, but I've never tried one. I'd be curious to.

 

A) what type of land raider is best?

 

Depends on what you want out of that LR. I prefer the Redeemer Variant, but my LRs always take EA and carry some form of melee-kitted troops, so it's always up close and personal. The Crusader is excellent as it can move 6" and fire all of it's weapons: it's roughly equivalent to a Tactical squad's worth of fire. Very good at staying out at range. The Godhammer (vanilla) LR is decent anti-tank and a nice way to pop transports at range. This is the kind of LR you use to sit on your objective in a C&C mission.

 

;) would assault termies work?

 

They often do. Stick them in a LR and roll them in to party.

 

I think that after the main force arrives, any tactical

marines left should be able to head for objectives.

 

Used to be that - depending on my opponent's army and my own composition - I would at times leave one or two of my scoring units in reserve so they'd avoid getting killed in the first two to three turns, coming in later to hold objectives that my killing squads had cleared off. I haven't done this for a while though, as it prevents me from using my tactical squads to offer support fire to my kill squads. For instance, two tac squads hopping out of their Rhinos and rapid-firing the pants off of a unit of Assault Terminators right before my Vanguard charges them is a nice way to soften them up...all those vanilla wounds, my opponent is bound to roll a couple of 1s. Three assault termies are not as scary as five assault termies.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

I'm coming into this topic late, but I was wondering. How well does the peanut gallery think it would work to: 1) essentially pack in some elites configured to be shooty, say Sternguard, shooty dreads, or shooty terminators, paying attention to give them the longest ranged weapons possible. Then make your IC and your troops units assaulty - I'm thinking scouts here because I think they often have better assault options. Drop in some Thundercannons as the heavy support or maybe a whirlwind.

 

In asking I realize I have ignored the fast attack options like assault troops or land speeders. It was deliberate. You can always back up with obvious assault troops; I'm trying to think outside the box.

 

I think this would be a better configuration against low toughness, high armor value foes rather than something like chaos marines. This is mostly because the weapons I think you would pick would have higher rates of fire but also higher AP's. Things like heavy bolters, assault cannons, autocannons, etc. I'm also thinking that you should anticipate moving a lot because you can't stay static against a quick assault foe - you want them to chase you so you can hopefully get one more turn of shooting. I think you also have to consider that a gun with a twelve inch range is useless in a unit that you want to avoid the assault because anything you can shoot with that gun can assault you the next turn.

 

I'm going to also caveat this by saying I haven't played in years and never in the latest edition, so my thoughts might be very last edition.