Sternguard Veterans

[MadGreek]

OK, bear with me, not trying to insult anyones intelligence -

 

A Bolt Pistol uses "Small" sized Ammo - no Special Ammo Rule;

A Heavy Bolter uses "Large" sized Ammo - no Special Ammo Rule;

 

Now -

 

A Boltgun, or Bolter, use "Regular" sized Ammo, and gets the Special Ammo Rule;

A Combi-Weapon is a Bolter attached to a second weapon. It uses "Regular" sized Ammo, has the same Bolter profile as a regular Bolter, and gets the Special Ammo Rule.

 

A Storm Bolter is basically two bolters side by side. Almost like a Combi-Bolter where both pieces are Bolters. The profile is basically the same, except that having 2 Bolters gives it the Assault Profile instead of the Rapid Fire Profle. It uses "Regular" size ammo.

 

Why then would a Storm Bolter not get the Special Ammo Rule?

[igotsmeakabob!!]

Just a note, Heavy Bolters and Bolt Pistols both use the same size ammo as Boltguns.

 

edit: Lexicanum has proven me wrong!

[MadGreek]

Actually, thats not true. It says in the rule book that Heavy Bolters are "Enormous versions of the boltgun that fire fist sized bolts." Whereas is says the Bolter "fires small missiles, or bolts." So clearly those 2 are differant. As for the pistol it just says they are small versions of the boltgun, so I admit I took a (logical) leap of fait to say those rounds are smaller - but I could be wrong on that one point.

[Gv0zD]

I tend to agree with the fact that Heavy Bolter uses larger ammo, while I think that both Bolter and Boltpistol use the same ammo and they main difference with these two are their ballistic properties.

As for the main question by the OP, I think that it would be a bit cheesy to have assault weapons with special ammo rule (well, I mean overpower), or (in terms of fluff) that would be technically difficult to upgrade the storm bolter with the capacity for such ammo and also difficult to avoid overheating with Storm Bolter's increased rate of fire... Just my 2 cents.

[shatter]

Fluff-wise, maybe the stormbolter mechanism is too refined, conservative or specific to take different ammo.

 

Rule wise because, sadly, it says so (only boltgun and combi).

 

*shrug*

 

I wish it weren't so. I think BA sternies actually being shaped for shooting AND assaulting would be great.

[NExOBLIVISCARIS]

the boltgun uses .75 caliber which is about the size of a modern day 20mm vulcan minigun shot. the bolt pistol uses the same. the heavy bolter uses a 1.00 caliber shot which is as big as a stryker main cannon shot.

[bulley]

Because the storm bolter is an assault weapon probably and it would be harder for it to control different ammo/recoil or whatever.

 

Real reason? A 3 point stormbolter w/ special ammo thats 24" assault for 2 shots would be unbelievlably powerful. Imagine x5 sternguard running around firing off x10 S4 AP3 shots at 18" without needing to stay still or lose an assault due to rapid firing (which would only give them a 9" range.)

[ImperialReaper]

Fluff-wise, maybe the stormbolter mechanism is too refined, conservative or specific to take different ammo.

 

Rule wise because, sadly, it says so (only boltgun and combi).

 

*shrug*

 

I wish it weren't so. I think BA sternies actually being shaped for shooting AND assaulting would be great.

 

Uh well maybe I am to cheesy here but when it says only boltguns may use special ammunition and the entry of the stormbolter says that its basicly 2 boltguns fitted together - I would say you can use it.

[Gv0zD]

Uh well maybe I am to cheesy here but when it says only boltguns may use special ammunition and the entry of the stormbolter says that its basicly 2 boltguns fitted together - I would say you can use it.

Good guess :tu: But unfortunately, StormBolter has its own entry in weapons section, and has slightly different characteristics  :lol: But if it was legal to use such approach, I would definitely take SV with SB, as bulley said it would be unbelievably powerful.

[JamesI]

The reason is game balance. Sternguard with stormbolters being able to fire the special ammo 24 inches on the move (or 30 inches with one type of ammo) and fire and charge would be too good.

 

fluff wise it is stupid. rules wise it is a good thing.

[bulley]

The reason is game balance. Sternguard with stormbolters being able to fire the special ammo 24 inches on the move (or 30 inches with one type of ammo) and fire and charge would be too good.

 

fluff wise it is stupid. rules wise it is a good thing.

 

I beat you to it James, couple of posts above! haha.

[Brother Biskit]

Think of it along the lines of the M107. The rifle was designed to fire a standard .50 cal round. However they later released a special round that allows an accurate kill shot at nearly 2km. Almost twice as far as a standard sniper rifle. Now you wouldn’t put an expensive and rare round into a .50cal machine gun, it would be a waste. Now the Storm Bolter I see as being designed to put down an impressive amount of firepower down range similar to a modern light support machine gun. Its strength is in rate of fire rather than accuracy, hence its assault 2 profile, it sends so much shot down range that you’re bound to hit something but has the drawback that you need much better control of the weapon at closer range.

 

Now the bolter I see as something similar to a modern assault weapon with two fire modes, a single shot with a decent degree of accuracy at range and a full auto to keep people ducking as you push forwards. I don’t think even veterans would carry a full clip of special ammo so these are probably single shots loaded individually into the gun. Something that would be very difficult with a storm bolter.

 

As far as rules go sternguard who can put out that kind of firepower and assault after would just be horrific. Who would want ten sternguard in a raven that can disembark, drop 20 special ammo shots and still assault with the same kind of power as a full assault squad - everyone. It would kill everything it got near and cost next to nothing compared to other death star units.

[Gv0zD]

@ Brother Biskit

 

I like your logics. You provided good comparison with modern arms.

It seems that Adeptus Mechanicus are either too greedy or too lazy to produce special ammo in quantities required for SB-equipped Sterngurad :)

[Brother Nathan]

Also you are forgetting the angelus boltgun....

[Zeller]

>What about the angels boltgun?

 

It has it's own profile in the SG section and SG vets are a league apart from the 1st company veterans. It already has a special type of ammunition which is no doubt heavier given the shorter range.

 

Storm bolter is not a bolter..exactly. The twin-linked bolter and combi bolters are still bolters either individually or fastened together. Storm bolters are simply a different breed of weapon that fires the .75 caliber bolt round. Like others have said, it would be wasteful to use specialized munitions in a weapon that is rather indiscriminate.

[shatter]

...I think it's mostly about the profile the special ammo gives. Stormbolters? How'd they do it? Double-tap range only and assault? Double shot at max range assault? EEK! Imagine the gnashing of teeth from C:SM players. We could be all like, yahhh, but then we can't be carrying combi-meltas... and they'd be like SO?!?!

 

Just balance. The rule is clear as it mentions two bolter types; bolter and combi but omits stormbolter.

 

It may be that it was deemed a bit wearyingly complicated to mix the stormbolter profile with the ammo profiles.

 

However, if GK end up getting it, I'll spit.

 

SPIT!

[Ranwulf]

Only Bolters and Combi weapons. Rules.

 

Too bad. Dawn of War 2, Tarkus can get Special Ammunition with Storm Bolters.

 

Ran

[NExOBLIVISCARIS]

But Dawn of War II isn't exactly close to codex either, :)

[Xenith]

Tell you what, Ill let you use special ammo with your storm bolters.

 

Shame that the special ammo "replaces the profile of the weapon with..." or words to that effect, meaning that storm bolter becomes rapid fire with the special ammo type.

[TheMouth]

wait..someone is trying to make fluff applicable to the rules? ...in 40k? surely you jest! :P

[Chairman_woo]

Tell you what, Ill let you use special ammo with your storm bolters.

 

Shame that the special ammo "replaces the profile of the weapon with..." or words to that effect, meaning that storm bolter becomes rapid fire with the special ammo type.

 

Good point, its a complete profile replacement so yeh Rapid fire only with special rounds even if you could load them into a storm bolter. (which you cant)

[Brother Nathan]

my point with the angelus was kinda missed there. i was pointing out that sure its essientially a smaller storm bolter, more akin to a storm pistol or shot gun, but uses its own breed of special ammo. point of which being balance. if the angelus was 24 inch range with the ap4, anything less than a marine would fear them immensely. so just taking the options that the special ammo give and sticking it into the stormbolter, aka making all those ammo types asault 2 would be :blink: yet can anyone see a time where a storm bolter would really be better than a bolter with special ammo and the bolt pistol.sure on the charge. at the current differences storm bolters being free wouldnt even help....

[yodaid764]

the boltgun uses .75 caliber which is about the size of a modern day 20mm vulcan minigun shot. the bolt pistol uses the same. the heavy bolter uses a 1.00 caliber shot which is as big as a stryker main cannon shot.

Not quite. The Stryker main gun system (MGS) is a 105 mm cannon. The heavy bolter is not that big. I would say a HB is more like a 30mm style cannon like on a Bradley Fighting Vehicle.

[Dark Legionnare]

I had thought of switching to storm-bolters when I first concocted a Sternguard squad for my army list. Then I realized that you couldn't use the special ammo, and then I thought "Where the hell am I going to get 9 storm bolters?!" That was the last time I thought of potentially employing storm-bolters with any Sternguard I may purchase.

[shatter]

Tell you what, Ill let you use special ammo with your storm bolters.

 

Shame that the special ammo "replaces the profile of the weapon with..." or words to that effect, meaning that storm bolter becomes rapid fire with the special ammo type.

 

Good point, its a complete profile replacement so yeh Rapid fire only with special rounds even if you could load them into a storm bolter. (which you cant)

 

Seeing as it's a 'double bolter', one could argue for double the special ammo profile... and if it were to retain the 'assault' rule... EEK!