Fighting Orks!

[MagicMan]

Hey, this is my first post so sorry if its in the wrong place...

 

Anyway, my main opponent uses an Ork army (although ive seen some Dark Eldar lurking on his desk) and generally the games are more or less even.

 

 

However whats causing me big problems are the Nobs inside his units.

 

We played a quick 600 point battle today (we only had an hour) and it was pretty tricky, i lost pretty badly in the end.

 

 

He took:

Warboss, Attack Squig, Powerclaw, Cyborg Armour (the 5+ invulnerable save thingy...)

The warboss started the game in a Truck with 11 Slugga Boys. And he had two more units of 20 sluggaboys. Every unit of boys has a Nob with a powerclaw.

 

 

I took a 10 man tactical squad + flamer/missile, a chaplain with jumpack, 8 assault marines with flamer/lightning claw, and a Dread with assault cannon/flamer.

 

 

My Chaplain/assault marines decimated one of his 20 Ork units, losing 3 men to the Nob before being attacked by the Warboss and Co piling out of the truck.

The rest of my men got embroiled in close combat in turn 2, and my Dread ended up getting blown up by the Warboss when it dived in to save the Assault marines.

 

So it was 4 KP to the Orks, and 1 for me.

 

Usually we play bigger games, and its a bit more even, but how do i handle the Orks in these smaller games?

 

 

 

Edit: I forgot to mention, my HQ choices generally get chopped in half by the cheap ork Nobs with powerclaws, since he can target me, but since the Nobs arent Independant characters i can't target them back. Should i just avoid them completely or what...?

[Jackelope King]

At low points-value games, Orks are still good. Ya know, before the enemy can afford to put threats on the board that Orks can't handle (heavy-AV vehicles are practically untouchable by orks). Once heavily-armored vehicles hit the table, you really start seeing the glaring weaknesses of an Ork army.

 

As for how to beat orks in general with PK nobs hiding in units of boyz? Pretty easy.

 

Step 1: Blow up their Trukks. Trukks are one of the huge weakness of the Ork Codex. AV10, open-topped = very easy kills. You've got decent numbers of missile launchers or autocannons, right?

 

Step 2: Isolate mobs of boyz. You've mech'd up, right? If you're playing Codex: Space Marines, it's the most basic way we've got to gain mobility. Run circles around the foot-slogging mobs, chew away with Bolter fire. Ideally, you want to focus your whole force on one aspect of his. Orks on foot are slow, so pick a part of his army to wipe out and ignore the rest of his mobs that are too far away to be relevant.

 

Step 3: Kill isolated mobs. Pretty simple. Bolters do it. Anything does it, really. Just keep shooting. Shoot until they break, or break them in close combat if you must.

 

Step 4: Rinse and repeat.

[breng77]

Orks are inherently strong in smaller games due to their cheap troops. Are you playing standard codex marines?

 

A dread is pretty good against a warboss so long as you can hit and wound, if he fails his save it is instant death. However, in general if you get into close combat with orks you are going to lose with marines.

 

Just look at your assault marines killing a 20 man boyz squad, you are throwing about 300 points in to kill half as many points. Essentially if you want to Charge that squad into orks, you need to try to manuver to catch both 20 man squads in the assault. Odds say you will do 15 wounds usually 1 to each nob and then 13 dead boyz. The orks will on odds do 7 wounds back to you. So you live and win by 8 wounds. Both ork squads are likely still fearless (if you have a fairly even split of you attacks) and each take 8 more wounds. Losing usually 7 more boyz each Leaving just the nobs in each squad (which you will likely kill in the next round). Or if you did more wounds to one squad and they are 10 models or below they test LD at a LD of 2 and run and are unable to regroup.

 

This assumes you have not killed a bunch of orks in shooting prior to assaulting.

 

Also be sure to shoot the truck early with your Missile and Assault cannon to kill it (AV 10 open topped should die/be immobilized pretty easily.)

[The Wunup Kid]

Ideally, you'll want to consider turning your dread into a more range oriented support unit. Rifleman is best but other options like assault cannon/autocannon or AC/ML aren't bad either, depending on your resources.

 

As a general rule, throwing your dread into CC will always be a bad idea when there's a PK nob lurking in every unit. You're practically garunteeing him a free KP while getting very little in return. Along those lines..if you're assaulting with an IC in the unit, you want to try to avoid positioning that allows PKs to allocate hits to your IC. Keep the IC on one side of the line away from the nob and make sure models on the other side get into b2b with him so he can't shift in response.

[DarkGuard]

General rule of thumb is having lots of firepower. Don't be tempted to split it between his mobs, concentrate on one until it's dead or falling back. Use your vehicles to outmaneovre them. If they're footslogging that'll be easy. If he's mounted up, however, it will be a little harder, but as has already been said Ork vehicles are easy to kill. Autocannons and missile launchers will blow them up, so bring Rifleman Dreads and/or Typhoons.

 

For the squads you're going to need to hit lots of them at once, so dakka preds, Whirlwinds, Vindicators, LRRs, flamers, even rapid firing squads should put the hurt on them. Also, although Orks are good in combat, they are only good if they get the charge. If you charge them you deny them one extra attack, getting it yourself, strike before them, and they're on 5s to wound you because they couldn't get your Furious Charge.

 

As to power klaws on Nobs, that's just like power fists on Sergeants. If you can try to position your Chaplain on the other side of combat to the klaw, so it isn't within 2" of a model your Chaplain is engaged with. Otherwise, either don't charge, or shoot a lot at them. Perhaps consider 10 Marines with 2 flamers?

[MagicMan]

Im not sure how to multi-quote so ill reply in order, but...

 

 

 

@Jackelope King, I don't have any Rhinos or Razorbacks or anything, so i doubt ill be meching up my army. Even if it is effective, i just prefer the mass of bodies horde approach (Im a Tyranid player at heart...).

 

@Breng77, I guess im just very attached to the idea of a Jump jetting chaplain terrorising the enemies lines. But you're right, it would be better to have engaged both squads, but it wasn't really possible. It was either i charge them this turn, or they charge me next turn...

 

 

@Wunup, Thanks for the advice with IC. I was under the impression that the Nob could hit him no matter where i positioned him, as the Nob can't be singled out. Ill be sure to check the rulebook a little more thoroughly. Haha.

 

 

@DarkGuard, Yeah i suppose firepower is definitely the key, its just hard when the Orks slam into my lines on turn 2. Its certainly giving me a taste of why people seem to dread facing my Tyranid horde. I actually had 3 flamers overall, including the Dreads heavy flamer and the Sergeants Multi-flamer (forgot to post that.. Hah.) but i barely got a chance to use them. I think the Dreads flamer got fired once before everything was locking in combat.

[Jackelope King]

@Jackelope King, I don't have any Rhinos or Razorbacks or anything, so i doubt ill be meching up my army. Even if it is effective, i just prefer the mass of bodies horde approach (Im a Tyranid player at heart...).

If you're not going to mech up, and prefer foot marine, I'd recommend using either Codex: Space Wolves or Codex: Blood Angels to represent your army. They both do foot armies better than Codex: Space Marines. Codex: Space Marines allows strong Mechanized, Biker, and a reasonable strong Drop Pod army.

[breng77]

@Breng77, I guess im just very attached to the idea of a Jump jetting chaplain terrorising the enemies lines. But you're right, it would be better to have engaged both squads, but it wasn't really possible. It was either i charge them this turn, or they charge me next turn...

 

With Jump marines this should never be the case, you have a charge range of 18" orks don't (except if they roll a 6" Waagh). You either need to work it so that you can assault both, or assault one in such a way that there is not a possibility that you will get charged by the second squad. Orks are significantly stronger when they charge you.

 

That said if you really like Jump marines, look into using codex BA for your chapter. They have better chaplains (either they are elite or have better stats), assault marines are troops, and they have access to Feel no Pain.

[The Wunup Kid]

@Wunup, Thanks for the advice with IC. I was under the impression that the Nob could hit him no matter where i positioned him, as the Nob can't be singled out. Ill be sure to check the rulebook a little more thoroughly. Haha.

A model has to be in b2b or within 2" of a model in b2b with the IC to allocate attacks to him.

[DarkGuard]

Unfortunately, without mech you're going to struggle, as with Rhinos you can more easily dictate the terms of the engagement, isolate units, ignore other units and focus firepower, while being generally invulnerable. I would therefore echo Jackelope King, in that Space Wolves would perhaps be better, and possibly Blood Angels as well. Certainly with Space Wolves you get a bolter, close combat weapon and bolt pistol with your basic squads, and the ability of two flamers, so they can stand up to Orks better than normal Tactical Marines. If you'd prefer not to use them for fluff reasons, then respect to you :D.

[greatcrusade08]

take Telion to snipe the nobs from his units.. takes two rounds but its well worth it.

[MagicMan]

Had a look at Telion in the rulebook, i don't usually use special characters, but it seems he might be worth it.

 

If a bit cheesy... Seems like a bend of the core rules a bit..

 

 

 

 

There is something else ive found really hard to understand that i hope you guys could help me with, how are wounds passed around on a squad of multi wound models?

 

For instance, shooting at Ork Nobs they each have 2 wounds (the squad of Nobs i mean). If there are 3, and i cause 6 wounds, 2 allocated to each. Say each nob passes one save, and fails one, does that mean all the nobs now have one wound? Or does one die, and another take one wound?

 

I can't find anything relevant in the rulebook.

[breng77]

that is in the rule book under the shooting rules (wound allocation). The only way they would each have 1 wound remaining is if they are all equipped differently. If they are all the same (or if 2 are the same) one would be dead, and one would have 1 wound.

[MagicMan]

I had thought it worked that way, but i was flicking through the Dark Eldar book and one of their beastmaster animals gets +1A for every wound lost, and since each has 4 wounds, i was thinking you could only ever get +3A since you have to take whole models off and not just split the wounds around.

[breng77]

I have not really looked into that unit, but if it is a per model rule, and not a per unit rule, then that would be true anyway.

[thade]

At low points-value games, Orks are still good. Ya know, before the enemy can afford to put threats on the board that Orks can't handle (heavy-AV vehicles are practically untouchable by orks). Once heavily-armored vehicles hit the table, you really start seeing the glaring weaknesses of an Ork army.

 

The classic Wound-allocated Nob Squad with four or five power klaws in it will glance a LR to death without too much trouble. With Furious Charge, Str 9 with 3-4 attacks (I forget how many base attacks a Nob has), that's a lot of hurt. Every time I've fielded a LR, the Ork player has either completely ignored it or wasted my LR with Klaw glances. Do not under-estimate the savvy Ork player.

 

Wound-allocated Nobz will soak ridiculous amounts of fire power before they go down too. I hate those things.

 

Kustom Force Fields, Ramshackle, Painboyz (with those Wound Alloc Nobz), Bikers that always get cover saves from "dust", reasonably good walkers, and surprisingly good fire power (Lootas)...Orks are not an easy fight. They can very easily outrange you, and at the same time might lure you to their side of the table for a tarpit assault party. Worse yet, with their cheap troops and ridiculous volume of shots, they can even outshoot you.

 

Try to hold mid-table (so you're in 24" for effective shooting) and give a little ground when they move in on you. Don't forget the Waaagh! as that'll get them right in your face. Isolate and wear down units, kiting as you can. Locking down their transports early will help a great deal with that.

[Jackelope King]

At low points-value games, Orks are still good. Ya know, before the enemy can afford to put threats on the board that Orks can't handle (heavy-AV vehicles are practically untouchable by orks). Once heavily-armored vehicles hit the table, you really start seeing the glaring weaknesses of an Ork army.

 

The classic Wound-allocated Nob Squad with four or five power klaws in it will glance a LR to death without too much trouble. With Furious Charge, Str 9 with 3-4 attacks (I forget how many base attacks a Nob has), that's a lot of hurt. Every time I've fielded a LR, the Ork player has either completely ignored it or wasted my LR with Klaw glances. Do not under-estimate the savvy Ork player.

If you're that close with a Land Raider, you should've already delivered your cargo of Assault Terminators or other hurty squads to eliminate the Nobs or other nearby threats. That means they're hitting on 6s, most likely. And Power Klaws aren't AP 1. They don't get enough attacks to overcome this. The Orks have next to no chance of stopping you from delivering the Land Raider's cargo. If Nobs get to attack your Land Raider early enough that they mess up your plans by stopping it from delivering its cargo, you've made some serious mistakes.

[breng77]

If you're that close with a Land Raider, you should've already delivered your cargo of Assault Terminators or other hurty squads to eliminate the Nobs or other nearby threats. That means they're hitting on 6s, most likely. And Power Klaws aren't AP 1. They don't get enough attacks to overcome this. The Orks have next to no chance of stopping you from delivering the Land Raider's cargo. If Nobs get to attack your Land Raider early enough that they mess up your plans by stopping it from delivering its cargo, you've made some serious mistakes.

 

 

 

Ummm...unless they are in a battle wagon, Nob bikers, or use their Waaag in which case the orks have a 18 - 27 inch assault range, which is plenty far away from your land raider. The could also have a Deff rolla and D6 auto hitting S 10 attacks have the ability to wreck a Land raider and then assault the contents (on average it has about a 33% chance of wrecking the land raider). In addition if there were 4 or 5 power klaws I think that the squad of Nobs has a pretty good chance against the LR even if it moved more than 6". Lets look at 4 PK = 16 attacks. Which comes out to about 3 Hits. One of which Should do some damagage the LR. SO while not a very high percent chance it is possible (especially if a Deffrolla had previously immobilized the LR)

[thade]

If you're that close with a Land Raider, you should've already delivered your cargo of Assault Terminators or other hurty squads to eliminate the Nobs or other nearby threats. That means they're hitting on 6s, most likely. And Power Klaws aren't AP 1. They don't get enough attacks to overcome this. The Orks have next to no chance of stopping you from delivering the Land Raider's cargo. If Nobs get to attack your Land Raider early enough that they mess up your plans by stopping it from delivering its cargo, you've made some serious mistakes.

 

You're making a pretty serious mistake under-estimating Ork viability, I feel...though I'm starting to suspect you've never seen a competent Ork player, given your dismissiveness of them? Wound-Alloc Ork Nob squads have *ridiculous* durability; it's absolutely ludicrous the sheer amount of fire power they can soak without losing as much as a single model. You nearly *need* Hammernators or Vindis to take these things out, as Tacticals and Assault Squads will have a hell of a time. Not to mention the rest of their shenanigans (which I alluded to already). Losing your Land Raider - payload delivered or not - is hefty (that's an expensive piece of equipment) but not the worst of your worries.

 

Orks aren't impossible to beat, but don't walk in there thinking it's impossible that they can beat you.

[greatcrusade08]

i agree with thade, orks are a very competative army in the right hands.. tooled up nobs are rediculous

[breng77]

I tend to agree. While I don't think they are on level with Wolves, and Guard. I often see ork players among the top tables in tournaments. I also think that orks tend to actually be better a lower points as they do not gain as much as other armies as points go up. (you could run more tooled up NOB bikers, or battle wagons, but You can run plenty of orks at 1500 and below. At 1k points talking about land raiders is kind of silly, while you can take one and still have a hard hitting squad inside it, you are really limiting what else you have. (LR + Termies = minimum 440 points, then add an HQ fro about 100 more, and 2 troops for 200 more, and you are looking at having 300 points to spend, which while not a minimal amount, when you start buying vehicles for your troops (another 70-150) and upgrades, you quickly run out of points.). Dealing with 1 LR for orks is not usually a huge problem, it is when you have 2+ land raiders which does not work well at low points, that orks have a bit of trouble.

[MagicMan]

Well i played another game against the dude today, we stopped halfway through cause we had :D to do, but will probably pick it up later.

 

Basically im getting stomped.

 

My enemy usually takes 1 - 2 Trucks, a Warboss, a Nob Squad (about 6), a few dethkoptas, and a bunch of 20 Ork boy squads. Oh and a mek with that shock attack gun.

 

 

In my arsenal of choice i have...

 

11 Terminators, 10 assault marines, 24 Tacticals, 5 scouts, a Dread, all basic HQ choices (libby, chaplain etc) and... Yeah i think thats it.

 

We're not so bothered about WYSIWIG (we play friendly games) although i generally tend to pick the weapons i have so that i don't get confused.

 

At 1000 points, advise me! What should i take?

[breng77]

What equipment do your models have.

 

TH/SS termies could be good. But they need fire support.

[DarkGuard]

Well i played another game against the dude today, we stopped halfway through cause we had :blink: to do, but will probably pick it up later.

 

Basically im getting stomped.

 

My enemy usually takes 1 - 2 Trucks, a Warboss, a Nob Squad (about 6), a few dethkoptas, and a bunch of 20 Ork boy squads. Oh and a mek with that shock attack gun.

 

 

In my arsenal of choice i have...

 

11 Terminators, 10 assault marines, 24 Tacticals, 5 scouts, a Dread, all basic HQ choices (libby, chaplain etc) and... Yeah i think thats it.

 

We're not so bothered about WYSIWIG (we play friendly games) although i generally tend to pick the weapons i have so that i don't get confused.

 

At 1000 points, advise me! What should i take?

 

He certainly has the advantage of speed and mech over you. And numbers. I hear the shock attack gun can be nasty, fortunately for me, the one time I used it the mek blew himself up with the first shot, rather amusing, felt sorry for the guy.

 

As for your list, you have the makings of a very good list there. Weapon load outs would be helpful, however, a couple of Rhinos (better to buy the Razorback box though, you get the parts for a Rhino and Razorback for £2 more, just don't glue the doors or gun), perhaps a Drop Pod for the Dread if it's a multi-melta Dread, or preferably, Aegis Line for the autocannons to make a Rifleman pattern would be useful. Flamers and power fist on the Assault Squad? Cyclones on the Terminators?

 

If so, if you can get your Tacticals mounted up, they're a little safer, and can shoot from the safety of their Rhinos, and lets you pick your battles. Termys can start firing from turn 1, and knock holes in Ork units or transports while staying on the move, and the Assault Marines can descend on depleted units as a cleaner unit, or a counter assault unit if some of his boyz get the charge. Chaplain is good with the Assault Squad then, although Libby is the better all round choice, especially if its in Termy armour as you can give it a storm shield and put him in the Terminator Squad. Finally, scout snipers are handy for sitting on your home objectives.

[Jackelope King]

@thade and greatcrusade

 

(I'm a poet and I didn't even know it.)

 

Orks can be formidable, absolutely. But they're one of the weaker codicies out there, and they have proven problems dealing with heavy armor. They have fewer viable builds, poor transports, and terrible ranged support. You're both correct that you always play the game in front of you and not what the Internet says about the Codex, but certain realities about the strengths and weaknesses of the Codex need to be considered.

 

@breng77:

Point stands. Orks have to get into melee range to deal with heavy armor. You can screen pretty easily (if defending a firebase unit or trying to prevent Nobs from getting at a Land Raider before it delivers its cargo). Nob bikers can be viable, but they suffer all the weaknesses that Rock armies do in general. We get sufficient missile launchers to smoke them, and can throw them Rhinos and Tactical Squads long enough to stop them and kill off the rest of their army. And TH/SS do indeed nuke 'em pretty nicely.

 

Battlewagons are actually trickier, but not stupendously so. Super-long side-armor arc at AV12. Your opponent will probably be smart enough to buy a 'ard case, otherwise it's open-topped to boot. I am quite comfortable nuking AV12 at range, and even more comfortable throwing Fast Melta at the thing. That design makes its side armor problem very troublesome.

 

Trukks die on turn 1, unless the enemy has lots of huge, LOS-blocking terrain to hide behind.

 

None of these options are anywhere near as viable as Imperial Fast Melta. Eldar / Dark Eldar lance weaponry has it beat pretty much hands-down too. Even 'Nids get a Rupture Cannon and Warp Lance to have a chance against heavy armor.

 

@MagicMan:

Yeah, right now you're definitely playing to the Orks' strength with that lineup. Orks have the speed advantage, and you have no long-ranged weaponry to compensate. If you'd prefer to stay sans-mech, I'd strongly recommend checking out the Blood Angels or Space Wolves codicies, as both can do armies on foot better than Codex: Space Marines.