Justification

[CKO]

How do you justify using different codexes? We all want to do it but it is hard to mold it into our IAs without crossing boundaries. I mean how do you justify fast vehicles in the blood angel codex using a non-blood angel successor chapter or using space wolf calvery? There are literally 7 power armour codexes, and I see nothing wrong with mixing and creating new colors, but it is very hard to do in my opinion. I would love to get a discussion on this topic as it is something everyone in the hobby deals with and alot of our writers think about.

[Gaz1858]

If you create your own chapter you can use any codex you want whenever you want.

 

For example I'm planning an army that's HQ is a winged space marine with a big sword.

 

Now C:BA is The Sanguinor

C:SW is a Wolf lord with Jump Pack, Frost Blade, and Saga of the Bear, Runic Armour

C:SM is Chapter Master, Arti-Armour, Storm Shield, Relic Blade...

 

All thats left after that is to decide how best to build the rest of the army. Obviously you would need more models than normal to do this as in a C:SW army you may want more troops than say your C:SM version has. But i feel it allows you to build and use all the different army lists with one solid army.

[CKO]

I think you may have misunderstood me ofcourse you can roll up to the table and say I am using this codex, hell u paid for it so you can. The gaming part or army list part of it is very simple as you have just demonstrated, but the actual background part is alot more complex. Example how come your hq choice no longer joins units, the sanguinor rarely shows up while your chapter master is way more active.

 

We strive to make our chapters unique and it feels kind of wrong to take key characteristics away from another chapter without a proper reason. If you use the special rules and your IA doesnt justify it you really havent created anything, you simply stole it. I think you have to be very creative to find excuses to justify special rules.

[Gaz1858]

True, In my example as im a Scotsman living in Aus i wanted a scottish themed army so the aforementioned character is my Saint Andrew. The examples given above are how i interpreted i could "build" St Andrew in each of the different codexes.

 

The other rules like Blood Rage and The Space Wolves Counter Attack i can put down to the Scottish being nutters. Most would agree :)

[Ace Debonair]

We strive to make our chapters unique and it feels kind of wrong to take key characteristics away from another chapter without a proper reason. If you use the special rules and your IA doesnt justify it you really havent created anything, you simply stole it. I think you have to be very creative to find excuses to justify special rules.

You've also got to be a very good writer, otherwise it comes across as a badly disguised, paper-thin excuse for fast tanks, or thunderwolves, or whichever other thing. :P

 

Seriously, I always advocate that tabletop and backstory can and should be kept seperate.

So what if your chapter comes across in the story as a standard codex chapter but you play using the BA codex, or fielding a Deathwing?

 

But, if you absolutely must have some kind of metion, be very vague. Don't say 'my chapter built it's own predator engines for reason X', instead just say they prefer to rely on fast-attack tactics, supported by armour where possible.

 

And if you want a Deathwing, then 'Such terminator armour as the chapter owns is used exclusively by the First Company' is your friend. :)

It also avoids specifying how many terminators, exactly, you have. :P

[GhostLegion]

For my money, Ace is spot on here. Be vague. Don't be so vague as the readers do not understand you are different than other chapters, but be vague enough to allow your boyos to do what you think is right by them.

 

Second, don't be afraid to be codex divergent. I can't count the number of times I have seen a chapter claim to be a codex chapter and follow the strictures of the codex religiously...only to go and toss in the "hey this is neat" thing from a divergent chapter. Justifying the divergence is not as important as maintaining a good theme (to me anyway)...and this does require you to work a bit as the author.

 

I would also suggest thinking about alternative organizational structures within your chapter, especially if you are going to describe a tactic to justify using an entry from a codex you like...this can really help both you as the author and the reader to understand you have something different going on.

 

As Ace points out...being too specific will just put you in line as first agaisnt the wall when the revolution comes....

[The Shiny One]

You could also limit yourself by only taking one special unit. If you want cavalry in your chapter, you could use the space wolves codex, but only take grey wolves tanks, HQ and perhaps normal Terminator squads. So its quit like a normal chapter but with cavalry.

The same goes for fast tanks. If you dont use death company and sanguinary guard or assault squads, it could be fitting, if you write it right. Why would the BA be the only ones with this advantage...

 

Just me 2 cents.

[NightrawenII]

How do you justify using different codexes? We all want to do it but it is hard to mold it into our IAs without crossing boundaries. I mean how do you justify fast vehicles in the blood angel codex using a non-blood angel successor chapter or using space wolf calvery? There are literally 7 power armour codexes, and I see nothing wrong with mixing and creating new colors, but it is very hard to do in my opinion. I would love to get a discussion on this topic as it is something everyone in the hobby deals with and alot of our writers think about.

An easy one.

Index Astartes is about Background development, not about codex-usage, count-as units, modelling issues, yada yada yada....

If you are basing your IA on the army-list you are currently using, then you are doing something wrong.

 

We strive to make our chapters unique and it feels kind of wrong to take key characteristics away from another chapter without a proper reason. If you use the special rules and your IA doesnt justify it you really havent created anything, you simply stole it. I think you have to be very creative to find excuses to justify special rules.

Well, that's the Special Character for you. Theft remains theft, regardless on the justification. :D

 

@The Shiny One

And where is justification in your examples? ^_^

[The Shiny One]

I just meant that with limitation its possible to represent story elements and chapter quirks on the tabletop. And why would it not be possible to inspire the chapters story by army-list choices?

With self limitation i think it could be done quite well. Thats my justification.

GW tries with the codex and special rules to express backstory on the tabletop, why shouldn't we do the same. Its sad, that they took the specialisation out of the new codices but thats an other discussion.

[CKO]

I am shocked at the responses, let me list what we have so far.

 

Be Vague

Keep it Seperate

Limit your army list

You are doing something wrong if your basing your choices with your IA

 

It seems that the majority are saying avoid it, which is not the creative response I was expecting :D

[Sigismund Himself]

Basically what people are saying is that you shouldn't be too specific in your IA. And that's because you've got a limited amount of words if you want to keep the reader interested and reading :D You can easily justify using different codeii but perhaps within an IA is not the best place to place these justifications, unless they really do reflect the theme/soul of the chapter. There's always the option of putting a little bit at the end, 'Using the XXX Chapter on the Tabletop' and then you can explain. For examples of this, you could have a look at the Iron Man Challenge from a 2 years ago where we had to make a chapter using a different codex. My own entry is worth a look of course [/shameless self plug] :)

 

How do you justify using different codexes? We all want to do it but it is hard to mold it into our IAs without crossing boundaries. I mean how do you justify fast vehicles in the blood angel codex using a non-blood angel successor chapter or using space wolf calvery? There are literally 7 power armour codexes, and I see nothing wrong with mixing and creating new colors, but it is very hard to do in my opinion. I would love to get a discussion on this topic as it is something everyone in the hobby deals with and alot of our writers think about.

An easy one.

Index Astartes is about Background development, not about codex-usage, count-as units, modelling issues, yada yada yada....

If you are basing your IA on the army-list you are currently using, then you are doing something wrong.

Unless he wants to do it, of course. We are all in this hobby for our own reasons, not all of everyone is reclusive, non-gaming and non-painting scribe like I and many others here are ;)

[Ace Debonair]

It seems that the majority are saying avoid it, which is not the creative response I was expecting -_-

From all the ones I've seen that have tried to do this, it tends to result in bad writing, mostly because it looks like an obvious 'Oh, and this chapter can use the BA codex, and the BT codex, and...' Well, you get the idea. :(

 

It's the literary equivalent of having Space Wolves and Blood Angels wearing thick spectacles with fake moustaches attached, putting on dodgy accents.

 

Again, this is only from my experience. If you want to justify multiple codexes within your IA, then cool - go for it.

[GhostLegion]

It seems that the majority are saying avoid it, which is not the creative response I was expecting :(

From all the ones I've seen that have tried to do this, it tends to result in bad writing, mostly because it looks like an obvious 'Oh, and this chapter can use the BA codex, and the BT codex, and...' Well, you get the idea. ^_^

 

It's the literary equivalent of having Space Wolves and Blood Angels wearing thick spectacles with fake moustaches attached, putting on dodgy accents.

 

Again, this is only from my experience. If you want to justify multiple codexes within your IA, then cool - go for it.

 

Not only from your experience Ace, but then, problems like that were only one of the reasons I started work on that nasty Ultra-templars chapter some time back.

 

I am shocked at the responses, let me list what we have so far.

 

Be Vague

Keep it Seperate

Limit your army list

You are doing something wrong if your basing your choices with your IA

 

It seems that the majority are saying avoid it, which is not the creative response I was expecting :(

 

CKO, We are not saying 'avoid it' necessairily....we are suggesting that any author attempting such justifications needs to be careful in how they do it. I would add extra emphasis to that in light of the fanatics who flock to these forums with their ideas (the short story about the liber that is floating around recently is oddly accurate for some of the comments I have seen over the years). Let me see if I can clear some things up quickly.

 

First, we are suggesting being vague as specifics tend to get bogged down in details. Authors have a tendancy to lose their way, their ideas, and their minds when they get too specific on the justification for most things. This can also add unnecessairily to the length of the article...only the best writing keeps readers interested beyond a certain point. Not even the best concept can save a book masquerading as an article.

 

We are suggesting separation, not so much as distancing your chapter and idea from the norm insomuch as emploring authors to come up with their own ideas. Rehashing another chapter (by this I mean official chapter) just to remake your version of the same thing...but 'better'...may result in many disappointing comments which could scare you off....we dont want that! we like members and participation. ( wait a minute...what am i doing speaking for the group? dont mind me, im insane... ignore this whole part, i dont care :huh:)

 

As for limiting your army list, well this is one way to easilly dive into another codex and make it yours, without being that same chapter in a different color. You dont have to do this by any means, it just happens to be an effective way to guide you in your justifications. For instance, say you like the Thunderwolf cav idea from the new Space Wolves...this is fine, there is no problem here. Now say you dont want to be Space Wolves, but still want the Thunderwolves...again, this is fine and perfectly within your rights. Here's the trick: who says the Thunderwolf cav has to be marines riding wolves? Though bikes have their own entry, maybe you came up with a cool conversion for a quad bike/atv, and this is what you are using to represent Thunderwolves....say you like the fantasy lion charriots and want your marines riding lions... This is just one route. Another is, well say you like the Dark Angels codex, but want ALL your veterans included in the first company...or serving as squad leaders in your battle companies... To do this, you could limit your list by not taking Company Veteran Squads. This is the type of limitations I think were being suggested... You do not have to destroy your ability to play the game in limiting a list by created fluff.

 

Additionally, I do not think anyone has suggested youre wrong to play based on the fluff youve created (IA or any other you bother to create). I do think playing by fluff is more fun, and I do it myself. I think what you are seeing there is a desire to ensure you understand the difference between story and rules. On the table, the codex is law, your fluff is just flavor. In forum and writing, your fluff is law, and your chosen rules are just flavor. This is a rather fun balance to strike and play with.

 

All in all, yes you can use fluff to justify just about anything you do. My only caution is to not confuse fluff for rules (just because you justify Baal engines in a Space Wolf army does not mean you can use them). The opposite is also true as things can happen in fluff that have no basis in rules. All I see the responders asking for (so far) is that you (the author) think about what you are doing, what you are trying to justify, and how it all works for your chapter/formation. After you have thought it out, then take the time to write it up so that it makes sense to the reader... That is the hard part. Justifying to yourself is one thing...justifying to others is much harder...