Power Fists

[DarkGuard]

Right, first a disclaimer, I tried a couple of searches and could not find anything about the usefulness of power fists in general. There were posts where people said they would prefer it in one unit but not the other, but never something on power fists in general.

 

So, on with the post. Recently, I've been in the train of thought whereby I'm putting a power fist on every one of my forward squads. However, this hiked the cost of my Tactical Squad up to at least 240pts, and I was spending at least 75pts on 3 models. Recently, a post by one Jackelope King made me think about the power fist in my squads, and its function, making me realise that spending 240 odd points on a Tactical unit is perhaps a bit much. Since then, I've dropped the fist off of one of my Tactical Squads, going with combi-flamer, flamer, MM in Rhino, saving me 15pts.

 

However, I'm uncertain as to take them off of my other units at the moment, a Tactical Squad with combi-melta, meltagun, ML and Rhino and a 9 man Sternguard Squad with 4 combi-meltas and a Rhino (accompanied by Libby). I've been using these units as my source of melta recently, as my fast melta was frequently ineffectiveness and easily killed. These guys have done a good job, as I only tend to need to kill one or two high armoured targets, and the power fist helped with this somewhat, while also being a bit of a deterrent, and giving my squad combat ability.

 

So know I'm teetering in-between the school of thought of, 'these squads may be operating out of their transport and therefore might need a power fist', and 'power fists for dedicated combat units only'.

 

So basically, I'm asking everyone for their opinions and views on the power fist in general, what squads you prefer to include it in, why you take it or why you don't take it. Recently I've been looking on it as an expensive upgrade that gives my shooting squads mediochre combat ability, I mean, 2/3 S8 attacks at WS4 I4, that's worse than a Dread, and we all know how bad Dreads are in combat.

 

So is the power fist good for making your unit good against everything, a handy backup clause, or just to be given to the Assault Squads and Command Squads?

[chaplain belisarius]

i used to run my tacticals with a sergeant with powerfist (just in case) but have since gone to using my tacticals as mostly shooting troops and am spending the points i would of wasted on powerfists on more units that can hurt the enemy...its working pretty well. :P

 

I give powerfists to my sterguard sergeant and assault squad sergeant because they are more likely to need it! Giving them to every unit is just a waste in my opinion (4 powerfists is 100 points-thats another unit! )

[minigun762]

So basically, I'm asking everyone for their opinions and views on the power fist in general, what squads you prefer to include it in, why you take it or why you don't take it.

 

For Chaos the Power Fist is almost always the correct choice with very few exceptions and even then its really a playstyle difference. The reason for this is we lack a wide variety of good anti-tank options elsewhere besides Melta and the Ubergrit of our Marines is enough anti-infantry power in assault.

 

Codex Marines are in the reverse situation. They have a wider variety of good anti-tank options and the Tactical squad lacks enough attacks in combat to adequately cover their needs. To me, this means that Power Fists on Tactical squads are not required, as they tend to work better as rapid fire/fire support squads anyway. If you choose not to take the Power Fists, you are at a disadvantage if you get assaulted by a walker, MC or FnP assault units but you have options to mitigate that. Combat tactics, long range firepower and TH/SS Terminators go a long way to protecting your Tacticals from the big baddies.

So long story short, Tacticals don't need Power Fists.

 

Now anything where the purpose of the squad is to assault things (Assault Squads, Vanguard, some Command Squads etc) should include at least 1 Power Fist or equivalent. These squads need to be able to handle the opponent's dangerous units and a Power Fist goes a long way to leveling any playing field.

[chaplain belisarius]

great point there minigun-chaos and wolves should always run a powerfist! :P

[Mysticaria]

This one is pretty good: Should Sergeants be armed for Close Combat?. It has lots of discussion on power fists.

 

I used to take them all the time, and then I realized I was just paying a lot of points for the ability to kill 1 or 2 models a turn. Most of the time, if I was in assault it only lasted 1-2 turns anyway and usually resulted in the tactical squad losing. All those points to kill 3 enemies and the squad still lost. I've rarely witnessed a tactical squad swing a combat from losing to winning by having a fist. Now I view it as a waste of 25 points. That's 50 points in an army just for power fists, and I've been doing much better since I stopped wasting those points. The key is to figure out what you want the tactical squad to do.

 

Here is my line of thinking: Looking in Codex: Space Marines... tactical squads in close combat isn't the most powerful option unfortunatly. If I want my troops in combat, might need to look at Space Wolves or Blood Angels. If I want to play Space Marines, I'm looking for something other than tactical squads for close combat. Hence, no powerfist. Combi-weapon maybe, but not powerfist.

 

-Myst

[minigun762]

Here is my line of thinking: Looking in Codex: Space Marines... tactical squads in close combat isn't the most powerful option unfortunatly. If I want my troops in combat, might need to look at Space Wolves or Blood Angels.

 

-Myst

 

I just wanted to elaborate on this point.

The other side of the coin is that when you want to assault something with your Tacticals, its usually something like an IG squad, Dire Avengers or Gaunts where having a Power Fist won't make the a significant difference.

[Jackelope King]

I used to take them all the time. Not so anymore. Not worth the premium in cost for such a modest benefit. They don't amplify the threat of the Tactical Squad significantly and they don't grant true duality either. Ergo, not worth it at their price tag.

[thade]

The only unit in my army that never gets a PF is a Devestator Squad...because they usually camp out very near my Rifle-man Dreadnought who's packing his own version of a Power Fist, the DCCW. *Every* other squad gets a PF. The reason boils down to utility:

- I don't like PWs because I can't count on them to kill something. Wounding on 4+ vs MEQ just doesn't cut it.

- PWs can't hope to hurt Dreadnoughts or tanks.

 

What PFs *can* do for you:

- Very high odds of 1-2 dead mooks in an assault, regardless of how the rest of my squad does.

- Good shot at popping a vehicle in a pinch.

- My tac squads can throw down with Dreadnoughts and stand a chance.

- Can potentially Instant Death-ify many, many ICs in the game.

 

While your PF can allocate it's attacks to an IC (or Dread), the IC (or Dread) can't allocate them at the PF...that PF is effectively hidden within the unit, protected by a sea of other marine bodies. At the end of that first assault phase, your fist imposes a *very real* threat to that IC. It's a deterrent at least, a dead enemy IC at best. Every time my opponent is all excited to charge me and then pauses, asking "Wait. Does that squad have a power fist in it?" I'm always happy to say "Yes!"

[Mysticaria]

Here is my line of thinking: Looking in Codex: Space Marines... tactical squads in close combat isn't the most powerful option unfortunatly. If I want my troops in combat, might need to look at Space Wolves or Blood Angels.

 

-Myst

 

I just wanted to elaborate on this point.

The other side of the coin is that when you want to assault something with your Tacticals, its usually something like an IG squad, Dire Avengers or Gaunts where having a Power Fist won't make the a significant difference.

 

Exactly.

 

-Myst

[thade]

Here is my line of thinking: Looking in Codex: Space Marines... tactical squads in close combat isn't the most powerful option unfortunatly. If I want my troops in combat, might need to look at Space Wolves or Blood Angels.

 

-Myst

 

I just wanted to elaborate on this point.

The other side of the coin is that when you want to assault something with your Tacticals, its usually something like an IG squad, Dire Avengers or Gaunts where having a Power Fist won't make the a significant difference.

 

Exactly.

 

-Myst

 

Having the Power Fist means that I can opportunistically:

- charge an IC and have a decent shot at killing it

- stand and rapid-fire his unit down, so I needn't fear the IC charging my unit as much. I can get my PF into BtB with him as I very often move my unit such that the PF is in a very, very hard to reach way (other models in the way, scenery, etc) so I can put him in contact with the IC on Pile In and not worry about him getting tied up otherwise. In fact, it's not unheard for for opponents to shy their ICs away from units with PFs. I guess since all of mine have them, they just submit to knuckles-in-the-face.

- Tear open Dreadnoughts and other armor.

 

Instant killing MEQ HQs is nice, as is squishing Wound Allocated Nobz and other very annoying T4 models. Since I don't take much in the way for other upgrades for my Tac squads (melta guns, flamers, MLs...the occasional plasma cannon) I always consider it worth the price. It's just me though. If you have other ways of handling the issues I list here that you prefer, knock yourself out. (Pun.)

[spartan249]

Back when I used tactical squads (4th), I had a powerfist in every tac squad simply because I was almost guaranteed to use it because of how I outfitted my tac squads. Now... when I do run them, I don't bother. It's too many points used trying to upgrade the tac squad's CC ability without any payoff. I'd rather spend the points on things that actually work.

[DarkGuard]

This one is pretty good: Should Sergeants be armed for Close Combat?. It has lots of discussion on power fists.

 

Thanks for the link, I'd forgotten about that thread.

 

There's been some good points all around here. Certainly I'm still in between the two schools of thought here. I still feel a little bit safer with the power fists, but in a recent game I reflect that I didn't miss it much, with the combi-flamer/flamer causing more damage than the power fist would have and for cheaper. That and I always find that I miss one attack and then roll a 1 more times than is healthy :blink:.

 

I think regardless of equipment I am going to be keeping the power fists off my Tactical Squads. They never did much apart from the odd IC instant death every so often, not amazingly consistent for a 25pt upgrade, especially if I'm trying to keep the Tactical Squad in my Rhino.

 

However, despite this, I feel that power fists, while certainly of fantastic use to combat units such as Assault Squads and Command Squads, it can be of some use to some shooty squads, or in between squads. Bike squads can be tooled up as shooty (TL-bolters, two specials and a heavy on the attack bike), but despite this power fists help them as one of them strengths is rapid firing then assaulting, something Tacticals can't do. Also, I'm undecided on squads like Sternguard. On the one hand, the power fist does nothing to help with their shooting, which is why you taking them. On the other hand, people will seek to prevent the Sternguard by throwing units at them, including horrible units and ICs, so having a power fist for them can be handy to help them out.

[Warprat]

I skip the power fists on my tacticals unless for some reason I have the points left over, which is almost never. When facing firepower armies my squads stay whole, and I usually don't need the fists because standard tacticals usually work fine to beat weenies up with. When facing close combat armies I combat squad to fire heavies every turn, and delay with the assaulty portion. I use combat tactics to run away when possible. The loss of a combat squad or two is shruggable.

 

The only time I really wish I had power fists is when I am forced to play full squads against assaulty armies when Kill Points are in play.

[BearersOfSalvation]

I find myself liking them less and less. It's nice in theory that you can take down a drednought or insta-kill an IC, but in practice the squad tends to be weakened enough from earlier fighting or hit with enough things at once that you only get one chance. In fighting suadd vs squad, 'who gets the charge' tends to dominate more than 'do you have a fist or not'. The fact that the fist only gets 2 attacks instead of 3 now doesn't help either.

 

I have had a very impressive sarge rip apart 2 baal predators that the owner thought were safe since they moved fast enough to be hit on a 6, but most of the time they just whiff or kill an extra guy.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

The powerfist I feel is odd, you'll appreciate it whenever you take it even if you never use it as you know you have that potential aspect covered 'just in case', but its also quite a premium to cover this safety.

 

I think it was koremu who suggested that a powerfist was a good buy for a squad operating without help from a squad that already has a powerfist. To me this makes sense, however I would leave the Powerfist to a fighting squad such as an assault squad or sternguard. Otherwise it feels like you're overpaying for a melee defense (and it IS a defense really, you don't send tacticals to do hand to hand often) which isn't something the other squads need much.

 

I think avoiding a powerfist if you can help it on your squads means that you aren't tempted to deviate from the tacticals original purpose, or move them out of support range (although it also will deny you from opportunist hits)

 

Overall there isn't a right answer! Its preference really and of course, the local enviroment, that will dictate whether it is worth it!

[deity12]

power fists are very handy, but are a points sink on any more then 2 squads, but they are good. many a time have i lost my IC to a hidden powerfist, which i can't attack until i've chewed through the whole squad :D (kidding i play for fun)

 

so they are worth it, but only on the right squads which will be determined by your playing style. i take it on assualt squads and my SINGULAR move up and kill/capture objectives tactical squad :( in a rhino squad, it is usually worth it. in my opinion, not worth it on devestators at all, but thats my opinion

[Meatman]

Well, I use a fairly agressive list that involves nearly all my army infiltrating or podding, so everything is up close quickly. My tactical squads are used to provide close range firepower in the form of flamer, combi-flamer and bolters.

 

As I'm within 8" and much of the rest of my army is engaged, I give my tacts a fist to help bring the pain in combat and to hold their own until a more dedicated assault unit can help them out. Usually my tactical squads are in combat for 1 or 2 rounds before help arrives, so I like to kill a few models to lessen the help I need to give them.

 

I don't take fists on my assault squads, thunderhammers look so much cooler and the extra rules with it are worth the 5 points more IMO. Scouts get a fist if they arn't snipers and 10 man strong. Everyone else gets a lightning claw or power weapon where possible.

[Hellios]

People say fists are expensive but I really think that depends how you use them... and someone said the combi-flamer is good... well maybe it is... certainly hitting that unit of orks before it hits you (or you hit it) helps... against marines or even terminators enough templates and you can take a few out... but against ICs or big MCs who will only take one hit I think the fist is better...

 

Now I think this all comes down to play style... for some people I think they use their tacticals in a more passive role and stand back and shoot while I for example tend to am my fist down the enemies throat when I play marines unless it is my greenwing (who do not have fists)... and I also think this is why space wolves, assault marines, sternguard and chaos seem to be more popular for fists... because they may well get into combat or are better in it... not that sternguard are dedicated combat monsters...

 

So yer I guess it depends on how you use a squad... I play many games where within 1 or 2 turns of getting out of my rhino I'm in combat... I use my tacticals to go in and try and finish off what has been wounded by my long range firepower... sometimes that puts them at risk of being attacked by something nasty but even if they die... as long as they hold them up for a turn or two and allow my big guns to clear out a few targets I find it is worth it... and if a fist kills a model I would need 6's to wound normally... even better.

[Grizzly_bear]

For me they are hit and miss, but most of my tac sgts who have a power fist are bought into a squad that has two of the free weapon options, I.e. Flamer, M.L./H.bolter.

 

I then normally split the tac squad into combat squads, and obv having the sgt sitting alongside the unit with the assault weapon.

 

I think it's more down to personal preference, I've ripped a few tanks up and killed a few battle wagons with power fisted sgts.

[tahrikmili]

Depends on how aggressive your Tactical Squads are.

 

Here is why I take them, and here's why I think you should.

 

My Tacticals are mobile Mid-Field holders with Plasmaguns and Multi-Meltas in a fast Rhino.

Their threat range is 24" and kill range is 12".

They are good at hunting armor and infantry at these ranges.

They are NOT good at shooting MEQ and TEQ, which often end up pouring out of whatever they pop.

Hence, they will usually have something running at them while they shoot the crap out of it.

Therefore, I need SOMETHING to reliably kill MEQ and TEQ in the inevitable assault after thinning it down with Rapid and Heavy fire.

 

So for forward operating Tacticals, the Fist is a no brainer. It gives them versatility beyond their purpose, and a chance to take a charge and survive.

Moreover, a 10 man Tactical squad WITH the Power Fist will always make your opponent think twice about going through or around it.

[DarkGuard]

It so happens that I've been using a Tactical Squad exactly like the one you use tahrikmili, except I found that I hardly ever use the power fist as they stay in their transport, while the plasma gun was a bit hot and cold for it's points investment. Therefore, I'm playing around with a combi-flamer, flamer, multi-melta unit for midfield, which has performed well in its two games so far.

 

However, the point I wanted to pick up was the point on deterrence, and unless my enemy is running an IC in the unit, they hardly ever consider the power fist a deterrence, and will almost always charge, or stand ground and rapid fire. The stuff which stands its ground doesn't even warrant killing with a power fist (things like Tau and Dark Eldar Warriors which fold to a cold breeze), while the stuff which charged tends to be powerful and overwhelming in assault anyway. Therefore, IMO the power fist is less of a deterrence, but more of a just-in-case choice, but its one that costs 25pts for 2/3 WS4 attacks, not amazing in everything I think.

 

I think that if my unit is going to standing and shooting, the power fist can be left out (like my dual flamer squad, which should be in the Rhino). By contrast, my dual melta squad (combi-melta, meltagun and missile launcher), perhaps benefits more from the power fist as it helps with killing tanks and ICs, and often will be disembarking as their own Rhino would have moved fast to catch my opponent's tank. Therefore, the power fist is handy. There are some exceptions, however, such as the Sternguard who aren't to bad in combat anyway with 2 attacks base, and will get unwanted attention so the power fist is perhaps warranted on them.

[Hellios]

I think that if my unit is going to standing and shooting, the power fist can be left out (like my dual flamer squad, which should be in the Rhino). By contrast, my dual melta squad (combi-melta, meltagun and missile launcher), perhaps benefits more from the power fist as it helps with killing tanks and ICs, and often will be disembarking as their own Rhino would have moved fast to catch my opponent's tank. Therefore, the power fist is handy. There are some exceptions, however, such as the Sternguard who aren't to bad in combat anyway with 2 attacks base, and will get unwanted attention so the power fist is perhaps warranted on them.

 

I can see what your saying but I don't see why people leave your transports intact B)

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I think DarkGuard brings up a good point here, on tacticals (which is where i think we're headed here as most of us accept that a fist has a place in more fighting oriented units).

 

This is that they themselves arent a fighting unit. Any enemies that are worth getting into a hand to hand situation with (be it weaker, or weakened units) probably don't need the fist as its overkill anyway. But also that assault oriented enemies don't care if you're packing a fist as they can probably rip to pieces most of the tactical unit with a flurry of blows before the fist hits back. So you provide perhaps a marginal retaliation at best and little to no deterrence.

 

 

There are of course a number of reasons to take a fist, to name a few:

 

Tactical versatility

More Close Combat potential

Ability to hurt walkers and vehicles such as dreadnoughts

Able to kill off Independent Characters

Work in tandem with short range weaponry such as meltas and flamers

 

 

But generally that fist won't go a long way to stopping many hardcore squads for assaulting it, nor will it help that tactical squad massacre infantry they'll be looking to get into a fight with. Looking at this from a shoot the choppy, chop the shooty perspective a fist is not neccessary at all is it?

 

I guess the problem does really weigh in with MEQ who, are basically our mirror in profile. MEQ are tougher to hurt and have the same operational ranges as we do generally. Now if a tactical saw the chance to pounce another tactical, that fist gains a lot more value if the other tactical does't have one and can perhaps mitigate the damage from a charge. Basically it helps rectify the situation if your squad gets assaulted by something of similar combat power. So in this kind of match up I think a fist is a good investment.

[tahrikmili]

This is that they themselves arent a fighting unit. Any enemies that are worth getting into a hand to hand situation with (be it weaker, or weakened units) probably don't need the fist as its overkill anyway. But also that assault oriented enemies don't care if you're packing a fist as they can probably rip to pieces most of the tactical unit with a flurry of blows before the fist hits back. So you provide perhaps a marginal retaliation at best and little to no deterrence.

 

I digress. The 'marginal' retaliation can be a very big deal in the big picture. Yes, the Tactical Squad is not a close combat unit by any means, and it should not be forward charging anything if it is doing what it's supposed to be doing, but when it gets charged by something big, especially an assault oriented unit, being able to hit them back and do SOMETHING can really matter. Why? Basically, with a heavy, special, combi and Power Fist all included your average Tactical Marine costs about 20 points. If you are being pounded by something that they can not stand in assault for over a turn, that means the average enemy unit is probably over 30pts a piece on average, possibly even higher.

 

Since I'm more familiar with the Blood Angels codex I'll give an examples from that;

 

If your Tactical Squad is in the receiving end of the charge from a Sanguinary Guard Unit - that unit is 40 pts a model with no upgrades, and you'll suffer 4 power weapon attacks at WS4 S4 per model, for 5 models, meaning you'll likely lose 1,75 casualties per model per turn, on average 8,75 models. You now have only your poor Sergeant with a Fist left to smack them back.. And you know what, Emperor help those Sanguinary Guard because he'll valiantly Instant Kill 1,33 of those nasty models by himself, and in small but effective units like those, casualties will hurt. If he had a measly Chainsword and Bolt Pistol he'd have inflicted 1,30 wounds, and with a 2+ armor save that would translate into 0,20 wounds. Sorry Sergeant, nice try though..

 

So what I'm saying is - If your Tactical squad gets charged by something NASTY, it will go under, regardless of what they pack! But if you give them a 25 pts fist that fist alone will kill more than it's points worth.. And trust me losing a model in a 5 model death star unit is worse than losing a Fist you put there 'just in case.'

[Hellios]

I think DarkGuard brings up a good point here, on tacticals (which is where i think we're headed here as most of us accept that a fist has a place in more fighting oriented units).

 

This is that they themselves arent a fighting unit. Any enemies that are worth getting into a hand to hand situation with (be it weaker, or weakened units) probably don't need the fist as its overkill anyway. But also that assault oriented enemies don't care if you're packing a fist as they can probably rip to pieces most of the tactical unit with a flurry of blows before the fist hits back. So you provide perhaps a marginal retaliation at best and little to no deterrence.

 

You're right the tactical squads are not great at anything... they are pretty good if you take something like guard or an ork boy as a baseline but not amazing and if you take a marine unit as baseline... then they are average.