Power Fists

[Warprat]

If your Tactical Squad is in the receiving end of the charge from a Sanguinary Guard Unit - that unit is 40 pts a model with no upgrades, and you'll suffer 4 power weapon attacks at WS4 S4 per model, for 5 models, meaning you'll likely lose 1,75 casualties per model per turn, on average 8,75 models. You now have only your poor Sergeant with a Fist left to smack them back.. And you know what, Emperor help those Sanguinary Guard because he'll valiantly Instant Kill 1,33 of those nasty models by himself, and in small but effective units like those, casualties will hurt. If he had a measly Chainsword and Bolt Pistol he'd have inflicted 1,30 wounds, and with a 2+ armor save that would translate into 0,20 wounds. Sorry Sergeant, nice try though..

 

So what I'm saying is - If your Tactical squad gets charged by something NASTY, it will go under, regardless of what they pack! But if you give them a 25 pts fist that fist alone will kill more than it's points worth.. And trust me losing a model in a 5 model death star unit is worse than losing a Fist you put there 'just in case.'

 

 

So why go with full Tactical squads when facing close combat armies? Your much better off combat squadding...

 

In my army an enemy squad like that would be facing the remaining plasma cannon combat squad, and would have possibly have been double flamed on the turn that it landed. That's potentially 2 plasma cannon shots (over 2 turns), 2 flame templates, and some bolters from the combined Tactical squad + what ever pathetic close combat attacks they could get in. And I have some left over points, not taking the power fist to go towards another unit. Like my Tactical Terminators, who do carry the fists and have much more value left over in the extra 15 points I pay above the power fists cost.

 

OK, if its Kill Points, then, a fist would be useful. Cause your going to run full squads. But on average, thats what, maybe 1/6 games?

[DarkGuard]

I can see what your saying but I don't see why people leave your transports intact :D

 

Cos they're very nice, or very unlucky :). Of course, the Tau player with the required 5 railguns then turn up and......

 

I think DarkGuard brings up a good point here, on tacticals (which is where i think we're headed here as most of us accept that a fist has a place in more fighting oriented units).

 

I was kind of hoping that it'd stay clear of power fists in Tactical Squads, and more power fists as a whole, but as you've said, we've all agreed that they should be in CC units.

 

However, what about Sternguard? Now Vanguard are the veteran versions of Assault Squads, and as we know, Sternguard are the veteran versions of Tactical Marines. So do we apply what we think about Tactical Squads with power fists to Sternguard, so either a fist for 'just-in-case', or not one as it doesn't help shooting and would only be points wasted? Or are they a unite that we should actively seek to give them a fist for the attention they attract? Remember also that with heavy flamers they may as well be an Assault Squad in a Rhino with better shooting, and we'd give an Assault Squad a fist. Thoughts?

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I think sternguard warrant a Powerfist, id be more inclined to make an assault with them cos they do have 2 attacks base which makes assaults more viable. I know they're primarily a shooting based unit, but actually due to their nature I see them more as a roving squad that does a lot of roles and should be able to fight in multiple fashions. Their cost of a powerfist is 1/10th of a 10 man unit so its a small investment to protect a pricey squad.

[chaplain belisarius]

my sternguard always get a powerfist-they are my front line unit most of the time! :P

[templargdt]

My tactical squads always roll with a powerfist on the sergeant. I view it as expanding the roll my tactical squads can take on successfully. The powerfist gives me a boost in close combat against everything and enhances my ability to destroy armor with the squad (strength 8 versus 6 on a krak grenade can make a big difference, plus on the charge you get 3 attacks versus one.)

 

I think this is, at base, a discussion of '"is the best way to use tactical squads double tapping infantry with my bolters and combat tactics out of assault?" My personal opinion is no. I want my tactical squads to be flexible and be able to lots of different things (not great, but good enough to get the job done.)

 

In my last tournament my powerfist sergeant on a tactical squad finished off a greater demon that otherwise would have won the game for my opponent. Is the fist expensive? Sure, for 3 fists on my squads I could get another speeder or pair of terminators (roughly). For the increase in capability of the squads, I'd rather have the fists.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I have a question, a small 5 man squad of sternguard. Is it worth taking a powerfist?

 

The reason I ask is i'm debating a small squad (I find 10 men hard to justify, 285 for barebones squad and rhino!) however a 5 man squad to support tacticals seems reasonable. In CC terms they pack almost as much punch as a 10 man tactical squad, but is a fist worth it in such a small team?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I have a question, a small 5 man squad of sternguard. Is it worth taking a powerfist?

 

The reason I ask is i'm debating a small squad (I find 10 men hard to justify, 285 for barebones squad and rhino!) however a 5 man squad to support tacticals seems reasonable. In CC terms they pack almost as much punch as a 10 man tactical squad, but is a fist worth it in such a small team?

 

I vote no. One of the benefits of a Tac Squad Sarge's fist is that its (usually) hidden behind nine other Marines. With a small squad like this, you've only got four guys in front of the fist. Its harder to hide, and when wound allocation time comes, you'll be taking hits on the sarge a helluva lot quicker. In the balance between utility, cost, and survivability, you're losing out with only a five man squad.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I have a question, a small 5 man squad of sternguard. Is it worth taking a powerfist?

 

The reason I ask is i'm debating a small squad (I find 10 men hard to justify, 285 for barebones squad and rhino!) however a 5 man squad to support tacticals seems reasonable. In CC terms they pack almost as much punch as a 10 man tactical squad, but is a fist worth it in such a small team?

 

 

If they're for supporting tacticals, then imo you should be buying the fist for a full squad or just going with dreadnought support. The 5 man squad is just too small and wont have the wounds the benefit a powerfist.

[DarkGuard]

I have a question, a small 5 man squad of sternguard. Is it worth taking a powerfist?

 

The reason I ask is i'm debating a small squad (I find 10 men hard to justify, 285 for barebones squad and rhino!) however a 5 man squad to support tacticals seems reasonable. In CC terms they pack almost as much punch as a 10 man tactical squad, but is a fist worth it in such a small team?

 

On the other hand, I find a 10 man squad quite easy to justify (well 9 man, I need room in the Rhino for my Libby). The reason being is that I found 5 man squads of any kind, including Command Squads with their FnP to be very fragile. One turns shooting, then dead. 9 men, however, is harder to kill, especially if your opponent is using dedicated MEQ weapons. Therefore, you get more survivability out of a bigger squad, much like Tactical marines. And much like Tactical marines, you get more killing power out of them, as they can put more shots out. Of course, there is a debate as to whether this is overkill, and I have thought about using a couple of small squads but IMO they won't be as effective as one bigger squad as they'd find it harder to bring their firepower to bear on a single unit.

 

As for the power fist, I'd say a big 'no' for a 5 man squad. Really, they won't survive too well in combat, and remember, the price of a power fist is the price of a single extra model who would bring more to the table in relation to their primary purpose, shooting. If you're taking a 5 man squad, I'd suggest using Razorbacks, and so therefore if you're considering taking a power fist with them, I'd suggest an extra man, giving more shooting and survivability, making them more efficient for their cost.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Yeah i feared a 5 man squad would be weak as kittens as each loss is so heavy! Ok I think this is perhaps something that rings true, the more men the more worthwhile the powerfist is?

[DarkGuard]

Yeah i feared a 5 man squad would be weak as kittens as each loss is so heavy! Ok I think this is perhaps something that rings true, the more men the more worthwhile the powerfist is?

 

Pretty much. As others have pointed out, when you have 10 men, you effectively have 10 wounds on that power fist, and as it's on a non-independent character your opponent can't single it out, meaning (presuming a full undamaged squad), they have to put on 10 wounds on that squad for the power fist to be threatened. When you have more men, it's also less of a points investment compared to the squad's overall points cost.

 

And yeah, seriously the 5 man squad is weak unless you either stick in a heavy flamer, giving them the ability to score more wounds, or give them a defined purpose, such as combi-meltas so they can hunt then vehicles and then turn on infantry with their special ammo.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Yes, there are more benefits to a full squad with a powerfist then a half squad. Consider that powerfist sergeant a 10 wound model because of wound allocation.

 

Regarding whether to take PFs or not, the reason people like them are the added flexibility and threat factor they give to the tactical squads. When you're rhino gets blown up (I say when, not if) what's you're squad's contingency plan when they get assaulted by something nasty? The power fist allows the tactical squad that added umph to insta kill some ICs or put the hurt on that pesky MC you can't fire on because they're in CC. I'm not saying you NEED one, but having one in the right place at the right time as a fall back could be a game saver.

 

It all depends on how you're army synergieses with each other, what you're overall tactics are, the overall meta game of your area, and the exact situation at hand. The best way to answer this question would be from personal experience with your army. Play around with and without powerfists and see for yourself. I know it's a lame answer to the question, but it's probably the best I can give you. Good luck!