Blood angels descended from history

[Leonaides]

Ordinary people tranformed into beautiful creatures who are perfect in all physical ways, but have ravening beasts lurking within?

And exactly who says that vampires are beautiful creatures...? Ever watched Blade? Ever read the old fairy tales (pre-disneyfication)?

 

Sleeping in a sarcophagus - you're getting your head all caught up in the word, while forgetting the thing it describes. They are actually sleeping in a sealed environment full body medical suite, with automatic systems for nourishment, waste processing, etc, which allows external observation and assessment, and logically must also allow external manipulation of the body inside (for example, corrective surgery if needed). Imagine a fully equiped Intensive Care Unit, built into something like the old 50's Iron Lung, with a person inside it, fully enclosed to protect them from untoward external stimulus. Now tell me that someone put in one of them for medical reasons for a year is sleeping in a 6ft 6 wooden coffin, with a few spadefuls of soil in the bottom. Bit different, arent they...

 

And the people drained of blood - there are 3 different possibilities given for that - guess which one gets picked by the pro-vampire supporters (not exactly the right word, but it'll do for now). And the only example where such a thing has been written about in more detail turns out to be - hey presto: A Chaos Cult trying to discredit the Flesh Tearers. So there is more evidence to support the fact that the people drained of blood are not the work of the Blood Angels than there is for it. Apart from the omnipotent "everybody knows...", which as its based on no evidence, cannot be found wrong as there's no evidence to prove incorrect.

 

Octavulg, I know you're better than to follow the unthinking herd, and usually I agree with a lot of what you write, but not on this one (its a pet peeve of mine, so I hope you understand, as I know you have your own peeves).

[Gv0zD]

Vampires are also often connected to Italy :<... I'm not sure where that started but they are... Still I will always think of Romania with Vampires...

I'm intrigued, could you provide some reference?

It is debatable whether the BA are vampires in universe, but vampires were definitely a source of inspiration for the BA.

There are not too many things that are definitely taken from the vampire-theme. The sarcophagi that BA sleep in? Yes. The drinking of blood during Rite of initiation? Yes it is. But it does not definitely resemble vampires. Saint Grail is a sacred relic for christians, as it kept Chirst's blood, but it doesn't make them vampires. And the Red Thirst is not literally thirst for blood, it is thirst for battle. It was never mentioned that BA who succumbed to Red Thirst drank the victims' blood.

After all, you have to admit that BA are pretty different from Vampire Counts, who were definitely inspired by vampires of Romania and Dracula.

 

Edit: Good examples, Leonaides. I like the way you think <_<

[Hellios]

Vampires are also often connected to Italy :<... I'm not sure where that started but they are... Still I will always think of Romania with Vampires...

I'm intrigued, could you provide some reference?

 

I'll try and make a little list of books... I'm not talking folklore here (I wouldn't know enough about Italian Folklore) and as for history... if we assume Vampires are not real it will be pretty hard to find historical evidence... but I'm pretty sure I've seen various sources in various mediums that place Vampires in Italy...

 

Even Twilight has some kind of High council of vampires in Italy (I think it was Italy)... and I really really wqish I didn't know that... Obviously I'm not saying GW based BA background off Twilight... unless a time machine was involved... but I just find it curious that they tend to pop up there and BA's have an italian theme so I was wondering if their was some deeper reason for authors using Italy... it might just be the atmosphere of Italy and many of its old cities...

[Viray]

Ordinary people tranformed into beautiful creatures who are perfect in all physical ways, but have ravening beasts lurking within?

And exactly who says that vampires are beautiful creatures...? Ever watched Blade? Ever read the old fairy tales (pre-disneyfication)?

 

Sleeping in a sarcophagus - you're getting your head all caught up in the word, while forgetting the thing it describes. They are actually sleeping in a sealed environment full body medical suite, with automatic systems for nourishment, waste processing, etc, which allows external observation and assessment, and logically must also allow external manipulation of the body inside (for example, corrective surgery if needed). Imagine a fully equiped Intensive Care Unit, built into something like the old 50's Iron Lung, with a person inside it, fully enclosed to protect them from untoward external stimulus. Now tell me that someone put in one of them for medical reasons for a year is sleeping in a 6ft 6 wooden coffin, with a few spadefuls of soil in the bottom. Bit different, arent they...

 

And the people drained of blood - there are 3 different possibilities given for that - guess which one gets picked by the pro-vampire supporters (not exactly the right word, but it'll do for now). And the only example where such a thing has been written about in more detail turns out to be - hey presto: A Chaos Cult trying to discredit the Flesh Tearers. So there is more evidence to support the fact that the people drained of blood are not the work of the Blood Angels than there is for it. Apart from the omnipotent "everybody knows...", which as its based on no evidence, cannot be found wrong as there's no evidence to prove incorrect.

 

Octavulg, I know you're better than to follow the unthinking herd, and usually I agree with a lot of what you write, but not on this one (its a pet peeve of mine, so I hope you understand, as I know you have your own peeves).

I don't see how this refutes the point that the Blood Angels have "vampires" as a part of their theme. Whether the mentioned sarcophagi are for medical use or otherwise, there is definitely a certain image such word choice would invoke. The writers could have easily used another word, but specifically chose "sarcophagus." The same goes for the bodies drained of blood; even if the Blood Angels are being discredited by Chaos, the idea of them being blood drinkers further adds to the theme. I'm not saying the Blood Angels are actually vampires, because that would be foolish; they are proud Astartes, nothing more. However, it seems rather strange to deny that Games Workshop is not trying to hammer home a thematic element like they did with the Black Templars, Dark Angels, etc. Games Workshop is not always subtle with their themes, just ask the Space Wolves.

[shatter]

Italian vampires? Anne Rice's books; The interview with the vampire, The vampire Lestat, etc.

 

Anyone would suspect the guiding forces for Blood Angel concept design had not just read them but loved them (or if I was to be a pessimist, the designers believed the paying customers would love them). Those books feature Vampires from old Europe. Vampires that lived through and even shaped the renaissance and absolutely loved it as her (Rice's) vampire's love art and beauty and some were artists extraordinaire. One, a vampire bloke by the handle of Marius, was dubbed 'Maestro' by mortal peers and even kept a coterie of boys as helpers, chosen for their intelligence and beauty... in the style of cherubim one could say. They helped him complete his great works of art.

To me, it's quite clear Blood Angel designers loved this aesthetic.

Marius himself was one of the longest lived of noted vampires within the series. Around 2000 years. His humanity and love of humans kept him sane enough to last... Sound familiar?

If I hadn't read these books; I'd have wondered. As I have read them; I know.

 

But Blood Angels based on a particular army... uhmmm... not so much, no. Them and ultramarines are based around a cultural style or aesthetic more than anything.

[Khavos]

It's worth remembering that GW seems to love establishing themes by twos for SM chapters, and that they paint with a broad brush. If there are two recognizable elements to a chapter's theme, bingo, you've figured out what they were going for. Blood Angels: Renaissance Italians + Vampires. Space Wolves: Vikings + Werewolves. Black Templars: Germans + Crusaders. Ultramarines: Romans + Mary Sues. Dark Angels: Emos + Freemasons. Raven Guard: Albinos + Ninjas. And so on.

[shatter]

I'd say Black Templars were Saxons more than Germans, but yahh, you have the truth of it. Big broad brush strokes encompassing as much machismo as possible.

[Mithril hound]

I believe it was Freakforge who nailed the raven guard as American Indians.

 

"* Corax live in a tribe that call him Corax ( the scientific name of the raven).

* Theres an american tribe called Apsáalooke most know as "Crow people".

* Corax and his tribe are slaves in a huge industrial complex ( that reminds me what happen with the original american people under the European colonization).

*The warfare tactics are one of the most common war tactics used by the native american.

*The crow is ussually presented as "totem" in the RG fluff.

*The hulk RG monsters that Corax made (after the heresy) remind me the legend of the Wendigo .

*And finally the well know Corax´s final phrase is a quote from the poem "the Raven" By Edgar Allan Poe... an American writer."

- FreakForge, http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...91635&st=50

[NightrawenII]

And the Red Thirst is not literally thirst for blood, it is thirst for battle. It was never mentioned that BA who succumbed to Red Thirst drank the victims' blood.

Yeah, It is lust for the battle, but also something darker:

The fate of those overtaken completely by the Red Thirst is a secret kept dutifully within the Chapter. There are tales of a secret chamber atop the Tower of Amareo on Baal and of the howling cries that demand the blood of the living, but none are willing to say for certain what lies hidden in this haunted, desolate place.

pdf Codex:BA, pg.4

 

After all, you have to admit that BA are pretty different from Vampire Counts, who were definitely inspired by vampires of Romania and Dracula.

Yeah, but there is more than one description of Vampires in popular literature. shatter is right on the money.

[Gv0zD]

After all, you have to admit that BA are pretty different from Vampire Counts, who were definitely inspired by vampires of Romania and Dracula.

Yeah, but there is more than one description of Vampires in popular literature. shatter is right on the money.

I didn't read Anne Rice's books, but I have no reason to disagree with shatter. In fact I like how the vampires are described in these books. I think I know what I will read after The First Heretic ^_^

[Hellios]

Italian vampires? Anne Rice's books; The interview with the vampire, The vampire Lestat, etc.

 

Anyone would suspect the guiding forces for Blood Angel concept design had not just read them but loved them (or if I was to be a pessimist, the designers believed the paying customers would love them). Those books feature Vampires from old Europe. Vampires that lived through and even shaped the renaissance and absolutely loved it as her (Rice's) vampire's love art and beauty and some were artists extraordinaire. One, a vampire bloke by the handle of Marius, was dubbed 'Maestro' by mortal peers and even kept a coterie of boys as helpers, chosen for their intelligence and beauty... in the style of cherubim one could say. They helped him complete his great works of art.

To me, it's quite clear Blood Angel designers loved this aesthetic.

Marius himself was one of the longest lived of noted vampires within the series. Around 2000 years. His humanity and love of humans kept him sane enough to last... Sound familiar?

If I hadn't read these books; I'd have wondered. As I have read them; I know.

 

But Blood Angels based on a particular army... uhmmm... not so much, no. Them and ultramarines are based around a cultural style or aesthetic more than anything.

Ahh nice one... I also think there is an Italian opera about vampires as well... However this is just something I've heard... I don't suppose you know anything about that?

[shatter]

Nope. =)

 

I didn't like all the Rice books, but overall, they're pretty good at what they are.

 

My favorite is Memnoch the Devil. But don't read it before the first two.

 

Quite a few gamers took the handle of Lestat for characters. He's that cool.

[Brother Nathan]

yea but having a vamparic theme isnt the same as being a vampire. yes some chapters have definate themes like the wolves, norse vikings and werewolves and otherstuff shoved in. i think ba are harder culture wise. cause the renasance was more wide spread than italy. and the armour types. well spartans had the moulded plate. and i also believe greeks and likely a few others too. some romans did. some gladiators did. its not definate. im not saying that them deinately being italian influencd is wrong, but i aint saying it right either.

and baal. baal was a god of some of the jews enemys in the bible, wee bit before fallout i believe... so yea biblical stuff tooo....

[Hellios]

yea but having a vamparic theme isnt the same as being a vampire. yes some chapters have definate themes like the wolves, norse vikings and werewolves and otherstuff shoved in. i think ba are harder culture wise. cause the renasance was more wide spread than italy. and the armour types. well spartans had the moulded plate. and i also believe greeks and likely a few others too. some romans did. some gladiators did. its not definate. im not saying that them deinately being italian influencd is wrong, but i aint saying it right either.

and baal. baal was a god of some of the jews enemys in the bible, wee bit before fallout i believe... so yea biblical stuff tooo....

 

Ba'al means lord it is a title like Allah and I think the reference to fallout is how people imagine baal to be... a radioactive wasteland full of mutants.

 

Also Spartans are Greeks... Sparte being on of a number of Greek City states. Culturally the Romans copied a lot off the Greeks... and I wouldn't be surprised if the Romans and Greeks of the old world were genetically closely related... As for gladiators... they could have armour from all periods or places across the empire... and I would call Romans Italian... although not all Italians are Roman :P.

[Brother Nathan]

exactly. theres alot of crossing and cpying of things in cultures etc...

[chaplain belisarius]

very interesting thread...i always had them down as the italian renaissance and vampires...<_<

 

another thought...sanguinius has a slight hint of jesus to him in a way, dont you think?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I'd definitely say Italian Renaissance era vampires. The whole artificeric skill and their sort of Angelly masters of all arts(including war) thing point to the renaissance. To me, they also feel Italian. The vampire bit is self explanatory: Red Thirst, drinking the blood to get in, all the blood-themed stuff, etc.

[Spacefrisian]

To be honest i dont find them that Vampire like at all, yes they might drink blood but the Spartans did that to and they arent called Vampires.

 

They are more Greek/ Roman like just like the Ultramarines.

[SnorriSnorrison]

I agree with Spacefrisian here. The angelic renaissance feeling is quite overwhelming, not the vampiric theme. Sure, they might drink blood, but lots of other Chapters do so as well. And the Blood Angels are not undead, nor do they long for living flesh or blood. The DC is a different case, they are crazy madmen and therefor not representative for the chapter as a whole.

 

Furthermore, our artificer skills are more fitting to the renaissance than vampires...I mean, have you ever seen a vampire with sparkling gold armour? Hell, I'm sure I don't. The renaissance, for example, was quite overloaded with gold ornaments, angelic paintings and a strong emphasis of the old Greek and maybe Roman culture. No vampires at all. After all, we are called Blood Angels, and the new miniatures and fluff convey this strong angelic theme - not the vampiric one.

 

Drinking Blood is not enough to be called a Vampire, nor is the Flaw that lurks inside of every single Blood Angel.

 

 

Snorri

 

Edit:

Oh, and vampires are not an army from history, to keep this close to the OP's question.

[Gv0zD]

I agree with Spacefrisian here. The angelic renaissance feeling is quite overwhelming, not the vampiric theme. Sure, they might drink blood, but lots of other Chapters do so as well. And the Blood Angels are not undead, nor do they long for living flesh or blood. The DC is a different case, they are crazy madmen and therefor not representative for the chapter as a whole.

 

Furthermore, our artificer skills are more fitting to the renaissance than vampires...I mean, have you ever seen a vampire with sparkling gold armour? Hell, I'm sure I don't. The renaissance, for example, was quite overloaded with gold ornaments, angelic paintings and a strong emphasis of the old Greek and maybe Roman culture. No vampires at all. After all, we are called Blood Angels, and the new miniatures and fluff convey this strong angelic theme - not the vampiric one.

 

Drinking Blood is not enough to be called a Vampire, nor is the Flaw that lurks inside of every single Blood Angel.

 

 

Snorri

I tend to agree with you. I also dislike this vampiric theme around BA, but we have to admit that there are certain hints to BA vampirism in fluff. And as others said, in particular shatter and NightrawenII, there are different ways to depict vampires. I prefer to think that BA just love red wine, that the rest of the galaxy count as blood <_<

[SnorriSnorrison]

I tend to agree with you. I also dislike this vampiric theme around BA, but we have to admit that there are certain hints to BA vampirism in fluff. And as others said, in particular shatter and NightrawenII, there are different ways to depict vampires. I prefer to think that BA just love red wine, that the rest of the galaxy count as blood <_<

 

True, hints of vampirism may exist, but I still think it would be foolish to call the Blood Angels "space vampires". Well, opinions differ, eh? :P

 

 

Snorri

 

Reason for edit:Spelling

[Gv0zD]

True, hints of vampirism may exist, but I still think it would be foolish to call the Blood Angels "space vampires".

You got my support on this topic <_<

[Chairman_woo]

another thought...sanguinius has a slight hint of jesus to him in a way, dont you think?

 

Absolutely yeh, in much the same way as BA are not vampires but have a lore clearly influenced by/reminisent of the Anne Rice/classical/frilly shirt variety; Sanguinius has a touch of the divine Martyr about him. Which in turn colours the chapters attitude somewhat, i.e. trying to forge a better life for all through their own sacrifice etc. Knowing he would die at the hands of Horus but going anyway because he believed in the greater good of his fathers plan certainly reminds me of the whole Jesus in the desert thing (that ultimately became Lent right?).

 

In my most humble and esteemed oppionion you are pretty much all right. Rennessence italy? Frilly/arty Vampires? Holy Martyrs/idealists? Roman and Greek design cues/words/warrior culture etc? Hints of moddern special forces, Medieval melee, armoured combat, cavalry charges etc. etc.? I could go on, but I can find bits of all of those themes in BA and quite a few other chapters besides. BA are ultimately an original idea, but one with many and varied influences. If I had to pick 2 domminant themes it would be classical europe and a mis match of various vampire mythos's, but all the other stuff is there besides.

 

 

BA are IMHO the most emotionaly/intelectually complex of the Loyal legions, and pinning down a hard and fast theme to their fluff is probbably harder than with any of the other chapters too. Theres alot going on with BA, it is said that no one came closer to understanding the emperors vision than Sanguinius, and it seems that even amongst his brothers he was regarded by most as somewhat "special". You kindof get the impression people whispered "what a guy" to each other when he left a room. But awsome as he was he was tortured by his own prescience and rage, they became both his greatest strength and his greatest burden. BA are absolutely obsessed with their primarch IMHO more than maybe any other loyal chapter, its all about him ultimately (most chapters I think moddel themselves as much as possible on their fathers). Its like they are one of the last failing lights left from the Emperors great vision for the human race, where almost all others have become insular or ignorant to the true ideals upon which the imperium was founded.

[chaplain belisarius]

chairman_woo-that was a fantastic post! i wish i had your eloquence! <_<

[Brother Nathan]

yup thats pretty much what i was saying! and also when people keep saying about the blood drinking they seem to forget that all marines except some faulty geanseeded ones have an organ what alow the drinker of ts foes blood to gain knowledge from his victim, so really those marines who dont are wasting their own abilitys...