Blood angels descended from history

[NightrawenII]

Drinking Blood is not enough to be called a Vampire, nor is the Flaw that lurks inside of every single Blood Angel.

Maybe not. But add here sleeping in sarcophagus and un-natural longevity.

 

True, hints of vampirism may exist, but I still think it would be foolish to call the Blood Angels "space vampires". Well, opinions differ, eh? :cuss

True, but people still keep calling "Space Wolves" the "Space Werewolves".

[Chairman_woo]

True, but people still keep calling "Space Wolves" the "Space Werewolves".

 

 

Do they really? I know BA's are often the but of bad twilight jokes, and "Space pups" and "wolfboys" are my favoured terms of endearment, but Ive never heard them called "Space Werewolves" if nothing else it takes longer to say than space wolves. And anyway it seems about as foolish to genuinely think of Russ's boys as werewolves in space as to think of BA as Vampires in space. Those things can in no way hope to acturately convey what these chapters are like because they are so so much more than that.

 

 

 

Edit: Dont listen to "people" anyway, Ive met "people" and.................................... bloodyhell Its a good job I dont have asccess to the big red button that ends the world! Some days I just think "jesus someone needs to go" ................maybe its me :)

[shatter]

I don't think of Blood Angels as space vampires either, they just have the (vampire) aesthetic mixed into their space marine-ness much like space wolves have some of the ole werewolf flavour.

 

It's like saying the batmobile is a bat, not a car.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

searchy option is your friend...

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Vampires are also often connected to Italy :<... I'm not sure where that started but they are... Still I will always think of Romania with Vampires...

I'm intrigued, could you provide some reference?

It is debatable whether the BA are vampires in universe, but vampires were definitely a source of inspiration for the BA.

There are not too many things that are definitely taken from the vampire-theme. The sarcophagi that BA sleep in? Yes. The drinking of blood during Rite of initiation? Yes it is. But it does not definitely resemble vampires. Saint Grail is a sacred relic for christians, as it kept Chirst's blood, but it doesn't make them vampires. And the Red Thirst is not literally thirst for blood, it is thirst for battle. It was never mentioned that BA who succumbed to Red Thirst drank the victims' blood.

After all, you have to admit that BA are pretty different from Vampire Counts, who were definitely inspired by vampires of Romania and Dracula.

 

Edit: Good examples, Leonaides. I like the way you think :)

look at 2ed rule for mephiston (i believe it was 2ed any way, where if he failed a leadership roll after H2H combat he spent a turn drinking the blood of his fallen enemies)

 

can i just point something out to the people saying "BA aren't only italian they're also roman" that's like saying "i'm not only american, i'm iowan in my background as well" rome is a city in italy, thus roman culture is a part of italian culture.

[Khavos]

I'd say Black Templars were Saxons more than Germans, but yahh, you have the truth of it. Big broad brush strokes encompassing as much machismo as possible.

 

Their names are German. Therefore, they're German. That's the level of simplicity that GW operates at. Bear in mind there's not much making Space Wolves particularly Norse other than the naming conventions.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I'd say Black Templars were Saxons more than Germans, but yahh, you have the truth of it. Big broad brush strokes encompassing as much machismo as possible.

 

Their names are German. Therefore, they're German. That's the level of simplicity that GW operates at. Bear in mind there's not much making Space Wolves particularly Norse other than the naming conventions.

didn't the norsemen also have a thing for wolves? (i never was much on norse mythology, but i thought werewolves were a part of it.)

[fivepointedstar]

In the sketch book from Jes Goodwin called the "Gothic, and Eldritch". He drew ideas for blood angels in in his notes, and in the ideas are the term "vampire" used. In the sketch for Mephy he drew the high collar that acts as his psychic hood to interpret vampire looking clothing from previous writers such as Bram Stoker, and the lot. So whether you like it or not the vampire theme was embedded into Blood Angels the first time someone one drew the crazed slicked black haired BA with two fang-like looking moles on his armor (pg 22 of the C:BA). That picture is classic to BA players. So if it makes you sleep better at night knowing your mini's are pure of heart, and do not have to do with the dracula, you can always tell your self the blood drops that are adorned on the armor also symbolism the fall of Jesus in the biblical aspect with his demise the blood was caught to keep in a sacred grail. That was also used in there angel named theme, and Italian history. since where do you thing the largest reserve of relics and christian history is?... I'll give you a hint... they have pizza. yes in Italy! So if anyone has the collected sketches of Jes Goodwin look on page 11 with the drawing of Mephiston and under the name/ title it says and I quote; " Blood Angel Psyker/ Vampire pg 11." Written by the designer of the models used to play with C:BA.

 

 

(The Gothic and the Eldritch. The Collected Sketches of Jes Goodwin, Black Library Publications Jes Goodwin, Darius Hinks. 2001)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

In the sketch book from Jes Goodwin called the "Gothic, and Eldritch". He drew ideas for blood angels in in his notes, and in the ideas are the term "vampire" used. In the sketch for Mephy he drew the high collar that acts as his psychic hood to interpret vampire looking clothing from previous writers such as Bram Stoker, and the lot. So whether you like it or not the vampire theme was embedded into Blood Angels the first time someone one drew the crazed slicked black haired BA with two fang-like looking moles on his armor (pg 22 of the C:BA). That picture is classic to BA players. So if it makes you sleep better at night knowing your mini's are pure of heart, and do not have to do with the dracula, you can always tell your self the blood drops that are adorned on the armor also symbolism the fall of Jesus in the biblical aspect with his demise the blood was caught to keep in a sacred grail. That was also used in there angel named theme, and Italian history. since where do you thing the largest reserve of relics and christian history is?... I'll give you a hint... they have pizza. yes in Italy! So if anyone has the collected sketches of Jes Goodwin look on page 11 with the drawing of Mephiston and under the name/ title it says and I quote; " Blood Angel Psyker/ Vampire pg 11." Written by the designer of the models used to play with C:BA.

 

 

(The Gothic and the Eldritch. The Collected Sketches of Jes Goodwin, Black Library Publications Jes Goodwin, Darius Hinks. 2001)

score.

i wish i had that now.

[fivepointedstar]

In the sketch book from Jes Goodwin called the "Gothic, and Eldritch". He drew ideas for blood angels in in his notes, and in the ideas are the term "vampire" used. In the sketch for Mephy he drew the high collar that acts as his psychic hood to interpret vampire looking clothing from previous writers such as Bram Stoker, and the lot. So whether you like it or not the vampire theme was embedded into Blood Angels the first time someone one drew the crazed slicked black haired BA with two fang-like looking moles on his armor (pg 22 of the C:BA). That picture is classic to BA players. So if it makes you sleep better at night knowing your mini's are pure of heart, and do not have to do with the dracula, you can always tell your self the blood drops that are adorned on the armor also symbolism the fall of Jesus in the biblical aspect with his demise the blood was caught to keep in a sacred grail. That was also used in there angel named theme, and Italian history. since where do you thing the largest reserve of relics and christian history is?... I'll give you a hint... they have pizza. yes in Italy! So if anyone has the collected sketches of Jes Goodwin look on page 11 with the drawing of Mephiston and under the name/ title it says and I quote; " Blood Angel Psyker/ Vampire pg 11." Written by the designer of the models used to play with C:BA.

 

 

(The Gothic and the Eldritch. The Collected Sketches of Jes Goodwin, Black Library Publications Jes Goodwin, Darius Hinks. 2001)

score.

i wish i had that now.

Its a great book to look at to see the start of what could have been the model we all now play with. lots of stuff that didn't even get the chance to get casted.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

In the sketch book from Jes Goodwin called the "Gothic, and Eldritch". He drew ideas for blood angels in in his notes, and in the ideas are the term "vampire" used. In the sketch for Mephy he drew the high collar that acts as his psychic hood to interpret vampire looking clothing from previous writers such as Bram Stoker, and the lot. So whether you like it or not the vampire theme was embedded into Blood Angels the first time someone one drew the crazed slicked black haired BA with two fang-like looking moles on his armor (pg 22 of the C:BA). That picture is classic to BA players. So if it makes you sleep better at night knowing your mini's are pure of heart, and do not have to do with the dracula, you can always tell your self the blood drops that are adorned on the armor also symbolism the fall of Jesus in the biblical aspect with his demise the blood was caught to keep in a sacred grail. That was also used in there angel named theme, and Italian history. since where do you thing the largest reserve of relics and christian history is?... I'll give you a hint... they have pizza. yes in Italy! So if anyone has the collected sketches of Jes Goodwin look on page 11 with the drawing of Mephiston and under the name/ title it says and I quote; " Blood Angel Psyker/ Vampire pg 11." Written by the designer of the models used to play with C:BA.

 

 

(The Gothic and the Eldritch. The Collected Sketches of Jes Goodwin, Black Library Publications Jes Goodwin, Darius Hinks. 2001)

score.

i wish i had that now.

Its a great book to look at to see the start of what could have been the model we all now play with. lots of stuff that didn't even get the chance to get casted.

any chance you could scan the page and upload a pic?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I think that would be GW copyright. Annoying copyright laws... Both protecting and annoying us.

[shatter]

I'd say Black Templars were Saxons more than Germans, but yahh, you have the truth of it. Big broad brush strokes encompassing as much machismo as possible.

 

Their names are German. Therefore, they're German. That's the level of simplicity that GW operates at. Bear in mind there's not much making Space Wolves particularly Norse other than the naming conventions.

 

Err, Germans are often Saxons, but not all Saxons are German. The language roots and spread don't care about nationalism. The 'Templar' part of it was pan-national... Ie. I don't think the inspiration was purely from Knight Templar within modern Germany's borders despite modern Germany retaining usage of white crosses on black fields.

That's the level of "yeah, we'll take all of that" that GW operates at.

 

As for Space wolves... I've lived in Scandinavia for years. Yep, it's them from beer to mountains and cold. From names to symbolism. From legends to social outlook.

[Knurd]

I agree with the notion that Vampires can be depicted in different ways. Anne Rices books have already been mentioned where the vampires embrace humanity (which I am using for inspiration for my DIY Chapter atm). In one of the books it states that most vampires do not like to use their ability of flight because when they fly it reminds them that they are no longer human. It is even stated that the much older vampires, called the Children of the Millennia, no longer require nor long for the blood of the living. Also, if I am not mistaken (I may be wrong) by the time WH 40k was created the first three books had already been released and the books do portray quite a few characters as noble vampires.

 

There is also Vampire: Dark Ages/Vampire: The Requiem from White Wolf who depict vampire in a myriad of personalities and traits if you want to see different ways vampires can be represented.

 

Also I am copying this directly from the Codex (page 13) describing the Red Thirst:

Deep within the psyche of every Blood Angel is a destructive yearning, a battle fury and blood-hunger that must be held in abeyance in every waking moment. Few Battle-Brothers can hold this Red Thirst in check unceasingly - it is far from unknown for Blood Angels to temporarily succumb to its lure in the height of battle.

 

The Red Thirst is the Blood Angels' darkest secret and greatest curse, but it is also their greatest salvation, for it brings with it humility and understanding of their failings which make them truly the most noble of the Space Marines.

 

The fate of those unfortunate overtaken completely by the Red Thirst is known only to the Chapter itself. There are tales of a secret chamber atop the Tower of Amareo on Baal, and of howling cries that demand the blood of the living, but none are willing to to say for certain what secrets lie hidden in this haunted, desolate place.

 

There have been incidents where the Blood Angels have been stationed on distant worlds where members of the local population have gone missing only to turn up later drained of blood. It is possible that this is the work of cultists seeking to discredit the Chapter. It may even be hat some of the more superstitious local citizens have taken to offering up sacrifices to their god-like visitors. It may also be possible that these folks have been killed by the Blood Angels overcome by the Red Thirst.

This to me sounds like they are hinting at vampirism to say the least. Simply making them to be vampires does mean they have to be monsters.

[Gv0zD]

Regarding the vampiric theme I'd like to say that although it is surely present in BA aesthetics, it's not the dominant trait, and (in relation to the OP) it is not a historical army theme, nor it is any culture. Many people compare Space Wolves to the norse, Black Templars to knightly/monastic orders, so BA are more likely to be compared with Renaissance Italy (and many of us agree on this topic).

If someone asked "Which real historical army are Space Wolves based on?" I doubt we'd say "werevolves"... because it is kinda silly :huh:

So, yes the BA design was partially based on vampires, and it is obvious, but again, vampires are not historical culture or nation.

 

P.S. If BA are 'destined' to be vampires I hope those would be Ann Rice's vampires and not those spooky Dracula-like guys or Twilight emos ;)

 

EDIT: One other thing that IMHO points to Italy is the thing that it was mentioned that BA had the most beautiful and ornate armor of all SM Chapters. This strongly corresponds with the fact that starting from 15-th century when plate armor was introduced the best ones were produced by Germans and Italians (Gothic and Milanese armor respectively), as wikipedia says: "European leaders in armouring techniques were northern Italians and southern Germans". 

[Knurd]

Regarding the vampiric theme I'd like to say that although it is surely present in BA aesthetics, it's not the dominant trait, and (in relation to the OP) it is not a historical army theme, nor it is any culture. Many people compare Space Wolves to the norse, Black Templars to knightly/monastic orders, so BA are more likely to be compared with Renaissance Italy (and many of us agree on this topic).

If someone asked "Which real historical army are Space Wolves based on?" I doubt we'd say "werevolves"... because it is kinda silly :P

So, yes the BA design was partially based on vampires, and it is obvious, but again, vampires are not historical culture or nation.

 

P.S. If BA are 'destined' to be vampires I hope those would be Ann Rice's vampires and not those spooky Dracula-like guys or Twilight emos :P

 

I don't think anyone is saying that BAs are based solely on vampires. I agree with Khavos that some of the Chapters seem to have a dual theme and to me it does seem that BAs are Renaissance Italy/Vampires. God I hope its not the Twilight vampires. It'll be Team Sanguinius vs Team Russ.

 

 

It's worth remembering that GW seems to love establishing themes by twos for SM chapters, and that they paint with a broad brush. If there are two recognizable elements to a chapter's theme, bingo, you've figured out what they were going for. Blood Angels: Renaissance Italians + Vampires. Space Wolves: Vikings + Werewolves. Black Templars: Germans + Crusaders. Ultramarines: Romans + Mary Sues. Dark Angels: Emos + Freemasons. Raven Guard: Albinos + Ninjas. And so on.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

I don't think anyone is saying that BAs are based solely on vampires. I agree with Khavos that some of the Chapters seem to have a dual theme and to me it does seem that BAs are Renaissance Italy/Vampires. God I hope its not the Twilight vampires. It'll be Team Sanguinius vs Team Russ.

 

Of course it's not Twilight Vampires.

Sheesh, May I bring a suggestion to the forum admins.. that twilight be added as a cuss word for this board?

So.. just to make sure that people are 100% clear that BA cannot ever be inspired by Twilight concerning their Vampiric nature, just look at this:

 

Codex: Angels of Death (first in depth look at Blood Angels), released in 1996

Twilight (first book in the Twilight series), released in 2005.

 

So.. what can we conclude from that? Ah yes;

TWILIGHT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BLOOD ANGELS AND NEVER WILL

*coughs* sorry about that..

 

Alright.. back on topic:

I think we really can conclude that the BA have had their strongest influence from both old vampire stories and Italian Rennaissance when it comes to style. But what about the Death Company and Chaplains? Where do those fit into these themes? Or the high speed assaults? These are not tactics used by Italy.

 

So.. tactics wise, where did the BA get their inspiration in real world history do you think?

[Gv0zD]

Codex: Angels of Death (first in depth look at Blood Angels), released in 1996

Twilight (first book in the Twilight series), released in 2005.

 

We can not deny GW's willingness to go hand in hand with the pop-culture (de)evolution  :P

 

 

Alright.. back on topic:

I think we really can conclude that the BA have had their strongest influence from both old vampire stories and Italian Rennaissance when it comes to style. But what about the Death Company and Chaplains? Where do those fit into these themes? Or the high speed assaults? These are not tactics used by Italy.

 

So.. tactics wise, where did the BA get their inspiration in real world history do you think?

 

Well, almost every Medieval army used cavalry as line-breaking unit and were heavily dependent on it. Actually the one historical army that did not use cav so much were the English (who preferred bowmen). Speaking of Italians, I remember them having Broken Lances in Medieval 2: Total War. 

 

Regarding Death Co, I can not tell if there were some units used in Medieval. The one thing that comes to my mind is the squads of convicts used by Soviet army during WWII. They had no choice but to storm the enemy, as they were already sentenced to death. They were also led by commissars (Soviet, and later, Russian analogue of the Chaplain in the US army) who spoke of their loyalty to the motherland and monitored they would not leave the battle. Although this somehow reminds of the Imperial Guard, I think of those squads as of truly "Death Co" - they were "already dead" to their country, and they could only redeem themselves by dying in battle and taking as many enemies as the could.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

We can not deny GW's willingness to go hand in hand with the pop-culture (de)evolution  :P

 

True that, but do we really see many strong Twilight references in modern BA? I don't at least, all I see is strong Italian/Roman/Greek influences that people call Twilight because they don't know more. Like the molded armor and nipples on Sang Guard that people see pointing to Twilight ("sparkling nipples lol!") and not ancient greek/roman statues which had a lot more physical details than just torso and nipples as well! /facepalm

 

Well, almost every Medieval army used cavalry as line-breaking unit and were heavily dependent on it. Actually the one historical army that did not use cav so much were the English (who preferred bowmen). Speaking of Italians, I remember them having Broken Lances in Medieval 2: Total War.

 

Agreed, line breaking cavalry indeed points to many medieval armies. But if we follow that train of thought, how about Alexander the Great and his ancient armies? He was well known to win wars with tactics concerning: quick redeployment, large scale feints and hard, outflanking, cavalry charges. Tactics that modern generals try to emulate on a larger scale on many occassions.

 

That sounds a lot like the tactics of the Blood Angels on a 40k scale to me. Quick redeployment via fast transports, large scale feints being done with large number of Deep Striking troops, and hard, outflanking Baals charging in is one :P of a linebreaker in my eyes. This also points to the overarching theme of Blood Angels as ancient Greek (or the Rennaissance view of ancient Greece)

 

Regarding Death Co, I can not tell if there were some units used in Medieval. The one thing that comes to my mind is the squads of convicts used by Soviet army during WWII. They had no choice but to storm the enemy, as they were already sentenced to death. They were also led by commissars (Soviet, and later, Russian analogue of the Chaplain in the US army) who spoke of their loyalty to the motherland and monitored they would not leave the battle. Although this somehow reminds of the Imperial Guard, I think of those squads as of truly "Death Co" - they were "already dead" to their country, and they could only redeem themselves by dying in battle and taking as many enemies as the could.

 

This is a great find!

So Death Company, in that way, are like the penal legion as well. Condemned to die but allowed to die honorably.

 

How do people feel about the comparison with Japanese Kamakazi? I am not a great fan of it myself, but maybe I can be convinced.

[shatter]

I'd say Black Templars were Saxons more than Germans, but yahh, you have the truth of it. Big broad brush strokes encompassing as much machismo as possible.

 

Their names are German. Therefore, they're German. That's the level of simplicity that GW operates at. Bear in mind there's not much making Space Wolves particularly Norse other than the naming conventions.

didn't the norsemen also have a thing for wolves? (i never was much on norse mythology, but i thought werewolves were a part of it.)

 

Fenrir. google or wiki that for the SW thang.

[Quixus]

Or google/wiki Geri and Freki, Odin's/Leman's wolves.

[Brother Nathan]

But having traits like vampires dosent make them vampires. If someone dosent move much and has skin that looks like bark, does that make them a tree? Obviously not. And its true that BA have alot that goes for making them look like vampires, the teeth (wolves also have extended canines, hardly conclusive) pale skin, (but wait dont they wear batle armour most of the time so making it hard to get a tan. and they have an organ thatmakes their skin change to repel radiation dont they? ravenguard have this gene faulty and so are pale,but we dont.) battle lust, well they have been trained from a young age to fight, and its what they live for. I would be more worred if a marine advoided fighting. And we excell at ripping things appart, and whilst still being able to fight a range you are more sure of killing stuff at shorter range.

Mepheson, course hes mainly based on dracula. hes one guy though. and hes closer to being a primarch than anyone else whos still loyal and isnt one. Heck i would bet theres some people that if they thought it would work would more personify something if thy thought it would make them scary to some others. Look at how the salamanders use their apparences, and the wolves. dosent quite work the same for ultras as they just rely on their reputation as astartes, where as some of us may have and use how we look when it can win a fight quicker than a blade or bolt...or words...

[Gv0zD]

@ Brother nathan

 

Oh, man, please, could you check your spelling... I guess I got your message, but I'm not the native speaker (and not only me on BandC), so it's kinda difficult to read your post. :D No offense, though ;)

[Quixus]

mepheson, course hes mainly based on dracula.

What does a Libranian who through sheer force of will conquers the Black Rage have to do with a Romanian Noble who, according to Bram Stoker, goes nuts at the death of his finacée/wife and becomes an undead bloodsucker? Mephiston actually strikes me as the most non-vampiric member of the Blood Angels. Or if you use White wolf's take on vampirism one that has reached the mythical Golconda (not the town in Illinois).

While more than one Chapter uses their appearance to their advantage. The Red Thirst is something more than just appearance. Even if you removed the fangs, and gave them a more healthy skin color, the urge to rip their opponents' throats (and possibly drink their blood) will remain.

[Brother Nathan]

whats wrong with ripping out someons throat? its pretty much a sure fire way to kill them? And i did say drinking their blood gives you their memories so..? But mephy did have a rule thathe had to take a test and if he failed he had to sty still and feast on the blood of the fallen.... and he can control perople with a glance... and has long hair, lol...