Are Combi-Weapons worth their points?

[tahrikmili]

The Sergeant / Power Fist thread sparked this question in my head - I gotta ask it to you B&C.. Do you think Combi-Weapons are actually worth it for Sergeants?

 

It's basically 1 Melta/Plasma/Flamer shot per game for X pts, while you normally get full version of these weapons between for free or up to X pts in Tactical and Assault squads. Sternguard even take them at a discount despite having Special Ammo.

 

Aside from Sternguard, which can actually shoot special ammo once the combi is depleted, and takes them at a huge discount, I really can't understand a) why they are so expensive, B) how people can justify taking them.

 

The only place I take combi-weapons is the Combi-Melta/Flamer/Plasma (love magnets!) on my Sanguinary Priest accompanying my Combi-Plasma Sternguard..

 

What do you think?

[JamesI]

In my experience using chaos marines, sometimes I find the combi a life save and many times a waste of points. I pretty much only use combi-meltas now as a way to get a BS5 meltagun shot on a lord or captain.

 

Now, if Assault Marines could take Combi-meltas, I'd use them all the time.

[DarkGuard]

Well, once I used to think that combis were garbage, even on Sternguard. Paying points for a one shot weapon that could miss and be ineffective? I'd rather spend those points on the real thing. However, with the real thing (my MM AB squad) being increasingly awful in games, I started looking for alternatives and found them in combi weapons. One of my regular opponents at my LGS runs a Wolf Guard Squad with lots of combi-meltas and plasmas, and they've been pretty good, so I decided to try them out.

 

Well a few games down the line and they're now more widespread. Combi-meltas on Sternguard are particularly good. IMO they don't combi-flamers, heavy flamers are better if you want to concentrate on infantry, and they have hellfire rounds and vengeance rounds for infantry so combi-plasmas are a waste of points. However, the one thing they can't handle are vehicles, unless upgraded. Therefore, combi-meltas in particular are gold, as they let you give them a few fantastic shots at those big vehicles such as Land Raiders, and then they can still contribute to the rest of the squad's shooting with their bolters and special ammo. I run 4 combi-meltas and a power fist at the moment, and they're fantastic. If I want infantry to die, they die thanks to special ammo (and the Libby running with them). If I want tanks to die, I've got a load of shots for them. Feasibly, they can take out two Land Raiders in game (though they never will).

 

As for combis in Tactical Squads, I used to think 10pts was too much. However, they really aren't as they drastically increase the effectiveness of the squad. I hear combi-plasmas are good when paired with a plasma gun, I can see why, 4 high strength, low AP shots can be frightening to that Marine squad in the open. I however, have more experience with the other combis. Now a combi-flamer can pretty much double the squad's damage output in one turn. So if you need a unit shifted from cover, or a Marine unit decimated, fire that combi with the flamer and boltguns, and watch them make a lot of saves. My squad comes to 215pts, so cheaper than taking a power fist instead, and with a MM and two flamers (for one turn at least), they can threaten anything in midfield.

 

Now for combi-meltas, these taken solitary are just asking to be wasted shots, but then so is a single meltagun in a Tactical Squad. Now although you can double up on meltagun, multi-melta, it doesn't make a melta fast response squad, as you can only shoot the meltagun if you move. However, you're only going to want to take down that one big transport, and so taking a combi-melta increases your chances. Odds on they should both hit (and rolling two dice normally means one should hit), and if they hit, they should penetrate, and then it's a 50% chance to take out that tank. The meltagun can still be used, and you've got a bolter, but that combi-melta really gives me confidence that this squad can take a tank out if I need it killed.

 

So in general, I think combi-weapons used well are well worth their points. Usually, their use should seek to allow the squad to do something they can't do, such as combi-meltas in Sternguard squads, or build open and increase what a squad can do, such as in Tactical squads. Used this way, and taken, not perhaps as standard for some, but as a 'I've got the points to spare', they can be nasty and worth using.

[tahrikmili]

Why dismiss Combi-Plasma for Sternguard so easily? At 5 pops a piece, they do something no special ammo can do, ignore Armor saves (even against TEQ) and wound on a 2+. 5 Sternguards with 5 Combi-Plasmas can wipe out squads in a volley of shooting..

 

True, they can't deal with armor, but that's why I add a Combi-Melta IC to them (depending on points, sometimes a Sanguinary Priest, sometimes Tycho, as he's BS6 and also has special ammo)

 

Currently I'm contemplating replacing the Power Fists on my Sergeants with Combi-Meltas or Combi-Plasmas as well (or maybe even keep both, but then I'd only take the Combi-Melta, I don't want an unlucky Gets Hot! result on a Fist) so that I can shoot out the hatch with both a Plasma Gun and a Combi-Bolter the turn I roll forward..

[Gunslinger87]

In my opinion, combi-weapons are only good if used in large numbers. That isn't saying that you should fire all the shots at once (quite the contrary in fact) but have the option of doing so.

 

For example, you have a squad with 3 combi-meltas and a meltagun. Thats up to 4 melta shots in one turn. No smart player will dare move his vehicle into your range. Will you actually shoot 4 shots and then be left with one for the rest of the game? Of course not... but it works great as a scare tactic.

 

The same applies for 3 combi-flamers and a flamer. Those nids or boyz are going to give your little 5 man squad a wide berth, giving opportunities to the rest of your army.

 

But now imagine you only have one combi-melta, combi-flamer, combi-plasma etc. That wont be enough to scare away anyone and once you fire it it will be gone.

 

So what is not included in the 10 points is in fact the increasing utility of each extra combi-weapon over the first.

 

So if I have a basic tactical squad, will I spend 10 points on one extra flamer/melta/plasma shot? Of course not. If I am in an already specialized squad which has a meltagun, a multimelta and maybe a combi-melta on one of the units, of course I will find a way to get that combi-melta on the sergeant. (great example here is some kind of biker, assault bike squad)

 

I would only consider a combi weapon on a tactical squad sergeant if the unit had that non-combi weapon and an attached HQ with same weapon. However, HQs are probably already big enough scare units for this to be unnecessary again.

[hazardousZERO]

With chaos marines i always use combi-weapons. In plauge marine squads whatever the special weapon is that's what type of combi-weapon is used buy the champ, be it melta, plasma or on occasion flamer. Terminators you get the best bang (literally) for your buck when it comes to combi. Most chaos players will tell you there is little better then dropping a 3man combi-melta welding termiside squad costing just over 100pts and blowing up a big expensive piece of armor.

[Jackelope King]

Combi-weapons are gravy, but good gravy. If you have the points at the end of list-building, they're actually a fair way to spend them, so long as you choose wisely.

 

My Bikers are tight on points at 2000, otherwise I'd compliment the 2x Meltaguns and 1x Multi-Melta in a Biker Squad with a Combi-Melta Sergeant to maximize the unit's anti-tank capabilities.

 

In my Armored Cavalry list at 1850, I actually do have a Combi-Flamer on all three Tactical Squad Sergeants. 5-man Tactical Squads don't get special weapons, so I help the list's weaker anti-infantry capabilities with a few combi-flamers for clean-up.

[DarkGuard]

Why dismiss Combi-Plasma for Sternguard so easily? At 5 pops a piece, they do something no special ammo can do, ignore Armor saves (even against TEQ) and wound on a 2+. 5 Sternguards with 5 Combi-Plasmas can wipe out squads in a volley of shooting..

 

True, they can't deal with armor, but that's why I add a Combi-Melta IC to them (depending on points, sometimes a Sanguinary Priest, sometimes Tycho, as he's BS6 and also has special ammo)

 

Currently I'm contemplating replacing the Power Fists on my Sergeants with Combi-Meltas or Combi-Plasmas as well (or maybe even keep both, but then I'd only take the Combi-Melta, I don't want an unlucky Gets Hot! result on a Fist) so that I can shoot out the hatch with both a Plasma Gun and a Combi-Bolter the turn I roll forward..

 

I dismiss the combi-plasmas so easily because Sternguard are already equipped for anti-MEQ (vengeance rounds) and anti-MC (hellfire rounds). True, vengeance rounds don't wound MEQ on 2+, and hellfire rounds don't ignore an MC's armour, but through weight of fire and all that they can deal with them. I would therefore spend my points on a combi-weapon that lets my squad deal with something they can't normally do, and melta is the best way to deal with vehicles. And if the vehicles have already been killed, you can always use those meltas against MEQ and MCs to more reliably kill them.

[Grizzly_bear]

combi weapons are great, give a chaplain a combi - flamer or melta, both are assault, stick him in an assault squad......mass damage to an opponents unti that will be charged by the chaplain lead assault squad.

[deity12]

i think combi-weapons are only worth it on sternguard as they are way too expensive, but they could be useful on a captain, or if you find, for example that your army doesn't have enough meltaguns, but swapping out other special weapons isn't an option, or if you have some spare points(which i usually don't).

Apart from that i'm not really a fan of combi-weapons on marines but they're good on chaos though, especially the terminator ones.

[Mysticaria]

Combi weapons are good in the right spot. You need to look at what you are buying as a squad in capability terms... don't look at it like you are buying 1 shot for 10 points. You aren't buying 1 shot for 10 points, you are buying a squad that can fire X shots of a certain type during one turn in the the game. Firing 2x melta shots is more reliable than 1x melta shot... whether one of those is combi is irrelavent. Firing 4x plasma shots is more effective than 2x plasma, etc...

 

In a tactical squad that can only have one special weapon, combi weapons allow the squad to increase their capability on that one key turn. Most of the time a tactical squad is only going to get one chance before it gets pulled into combat, and being able to double their special weapon fire for only 10 points is a real plus. I can't speak to BA or SW, but for C:SM the sergeant can be given a combi weapon to complement the squad for somewhere in the neighborhood of 5% of the value of the squad. That means, if I am paying 215 points, and can add a combi for only 10 points, that is less than 5% increase in the squad and I've just doubled their special weapons fire on that one crucial turn. Sometimes this is good, and sometimes you are overpaying.

 

I like the Multimelta/Plasmagun/Combiplas Rhino squad. First, the MM and plasma have the same range banding. They both have 24" max range and get better at 12". Second, the combi weapon in the squad makes the AP2 rapid fire threat up to 4 shots. Being able to drive 12", disembark, and rapid fire AP2 shots makes a threat range of 26". That's pretty good for a tactical squad, a squad that everyone knows isn't supposed to actually kill stuff, and really gives a lot of options during a game. Most time I like to park and fire MM/plasma out the firepoint, and the sergeant is there to cover in case the plasma gets hot early in the game. And, the squad still presents a threat to any infantry or light transports that show up. I really think that for 10 points it really makes the squad from something that just sits there and claims objectives into soemthing that has a lot more capability.

 

Again... think about what you are buying as a squad. Think about what your army is trying to do. How do you play? How do your nomal enemies play? What types of situations are your normal squads usually placed in? Will an increase in a certain type of fire on one key turn in the game help your game plan? In some armies, this is the best 10 points they have.. in others it is a waste. Think about the questions above and your army. Only you can tell. Oh yeah, and if you have never tried it... check it out a couple times. What's the worst that can happen, you'll be surprised at your success?

 

-Myst

[thade]

Combi-weapons are gravy, but good gravy.

 

^This.

 

I always take combi-meltas on a few Sternguard if I'm fielding that unit, as 1. they are DIRT CHEAP, and 2. it helps the Sternguard deal with very heavy armor, which they'd otherwise be unable to do on the move, and not give up their specialist ammo (which is why I take them).

[Warprat]

I play with 3-4 Tactical squads in an all foot army. When facing a mechanized superior close combat foe like Space Wolves, I had to find some way to counter his speed and close combat power. At first, it seemed hopeless. They are so strong at close combat, and fast with transports. I had to really change up my tactics to face these guys.

 

I had already been using flamer and plasma cannon against my other opponent, Tau. That combination seemed to work well, but I was running them in full squads to survive the horrendous fire Tau could put out, until my guys could assault them. Most of the time, the flamer and plasma cannon were not needed.

 

When fighting Space Wolves, I needed the plasma cannons to be firing every turn. I have found popping transports and cooking the passengers with plasma cannons to be great fun. But I also wanted a close combat portion to hand out some real damage, hopefully delaying the enemy advance by selling thier lives dearly. The flamer seemed ideal, able to hit groupings of troops at choke points and when pods and transports disembarked. And it worked well, but the damage output of one flamer plus bolters is not great enough to seriously put a dent into a full sized Space Wolf squad. Not even when two flamer combat squads worked together. It was close, but still not enough.

 

Adding a combi-flamer provided the critical mass that was missing. With the double flamer, my combat squads have gained enough strength to be dangerous for a turn. Usually, one turn is all that they will need, and probably all they will get. Two of my double flamer squads working together can really put the hurt on a Space Wolf squad. Reducing it to a point where I can hope to win with a charge, or to stand my ground and rapid fire.

 

In fact it works so well, that I will probably be adding in Rhinos soon, to provide my squads some needed firepower protection, and mobile choke point creation. Not to mention the added mobility.

 

Warprat ;)

[Gothical]

I love combi-weapons, and I think they are an excellent investment, particularly as I have rather gone off close-combat upgrades for Tactical Sergeants (I don't field Sternguard and Devs don't need Sarge equipment really, so Tactical Squads are the only Sergeants I have that can take gear).

 

The small points investment allows you to either double-up the Special Weapon firepower, or it can give you a truly flexible squad. Running 2 squads side-by-side with matching Special/Combi-Weapons means these squads can really punch above their weight and take out things that would otherwise be a death sentence (for example, 8 Plasma Shots, 14 Bolters and 2 Bolt Pistols can really make a mess of Monstrous Creatures and Terminators).

 

Though there is one dilemma I currently face, and that is whether to make a "double-special" squad, or to have a properly flexible squad. For instance, I take two matching Tactical Squads that I like to run side-by-side and I can outfit them thus:

 

1) Sergeant: Combi-Flamer; 9 Marines: 1 Flamer, 1 Multi-Melta; Rhino.

 

2) Sergeant: Combi-Flamer; 9 Marines: 1 Plasma Gun, 1 Multi-Melta; Rhino.

 

The first options allows the squad to seriously go to town on enemy infantry (4 Flamer templates really hurts any unit, with the option of either rapid-fire or pistol+assault to follow things through), which is in keeping with the basic equipment and general role of the Tactical Squad. The Rhino allows the option of drive-by-flaming too. However there are many infantry in the game that are fairly resilient and still available in large numbers, which the Tac Squad should have the option to take on. Here's where the 2nd option comes into play. The Plasma Gun has excellent synergy with the Multi-Melta - it can pop light vehicles/monsters and has a similar range-band; yet it also has great synergy with the Bolter - it has enough shots to be counted as an anti-infantry weapon which also offers the extra oomph against things like other enemy Marine squads. With the Rhino you can have a brutal mid-field "bunker". The Combi-Flamer just helps to round things out - it means the squad can assault into cover fairly reliably, and has a weapon on hand to deal with the larger Horde units that can appear in the game, and in a pinch it's not too shabby against Marines either as it can force a lot of saves (and you can still do the drive-by-flaming, just less powerfully).

 

++

 

I am not terribly keen on the other Combi-weapons. The Combi-Plasma/Melta have uses in large squads when paired with the relevant Special Weapon, but I find that it either lacks the capability to take on larger troop units (the Plasma) or you are firing at targets where the Bolters are a waste (the Melta). The Combi-Flamer just seems to fit in with the role of the Tactical Squad.

 

Mind you, if taking 5-man squads in Razorbacks, I think that any of the combi-weapons can do. The Combi-Melta means the squad can do something to a vehicle, and double as "fast melta" if you can't fit more Fast Attack into your army; and the Combi-Plasma can make the squad an excellent "plug" for holes in your lines, particularly if paired with the Las/Plas Razorback. The smaller unit size means you are not wasting (too many) Bolters on targets they are better not firing at, and the lack of any upgrades for the squad means the Combi-weapon helps give them some teeth. Whether dedicated 5-man squads are worth it or not is another discussion of course.

[templargdt]

+1 For Combiflamer. If I have the points after building the list the combiflamer is excellent in a tactical squad.

[BearersOfSalvation]

It's basically 1 Melta/Plasma/Flamer shot per game for X pts, while you normally get full version of these weapons between for free or up to X pts in Tactical and Assault squads.

 

Actually, it makes more sense to think of it as 2 melta/flamer/plasma shots per game for X points if you're putting one on a tac squad sergeant. How many times do you actually shoot your flamer or melta at a proper target during a game? My tac squads tend to have 1-2 key short-range shooting phases, the rest of the time is moving, meleeing, shooting something at range, shooting something the special isn't good at, or something along those lines. Getting 2 melta shots for the time you get close enough to pop a land raider, or 2 flamers when you want to thin down that giant boyz squad or IG blob, or when you're disembarking to try to crack that enemy rhino and assault the troops inside is incredibly useful. Combi-plasma is not as nice IMO because you usually get to shoot plasma lots of times, and I don't usually use them.

 

For sternguard, their special ammo gives them incredible anti-infantry firepower, but doesn't do anything to vehicles. Adding some combi-meltas (10-20 points for 2-4) is a cheap way to make the squad threaten pretty much every unit type with their shooting, which is incredibly nice, and doesn't hurt any other capability.

[DerekLee688]

I don't trust vengence rounds on Sternguard without a Sang. priest, which I don't own the codex to get that option. I originaly thought they were overpriced for a single shot, but now I'm giving them their 2-3 game test to prove me wrong. Namely the combi-flamer on fist/no-fist tac sergents, and combi-melta on bike Srg.

[ShinyRhino]

I don't typically like combiweapons on my Tactical Squads. I have a single foot marine with a combimelta, and sometimes field him in said Tactical Squads, but he's awful. The single shot just isn't worth it for a unit that is such a generalist. I know the accepted convention nowadays is powerfist/combiflamer, but just don't like the extra 10points spent on a one-shot weapon that may not get used.

 

Now, I do like them on my shootier units, like biker squads. I give the sergeant of my dual-melta biker squad a combimelta. Since biker sergeants can only purchase a single upgrade for their bolt pistol, a melee weapon is a total waste in a shooting squad. Combi becomes a much easier choice.

[RavenTalon]

Combi-meltas are all around WIN. When you absolutely, positively have to bust open that tank, having the only guy in a tactical squad miss with his melta/multi-melta just crushes your morale. Hence the combi-melta. Flamers are also good, but having to kill that tank is usually more pressing than having to kill that big squad of infantry.

 

And I spam combi-guns on my sternguard. It looks cool, and it has a basis in reality.

 

In any decently run military force, you don't have that many dudes with only a basic rifle. A modern American Infantry (Mechanized) Squad gives 9 soldiers two SAWs (light machine guns), two M203 Aux Grenade launchers, a javelin Anti-Tank Launcher and a Sniper Rifle. Do you know who doesn't have specialized weapons? The two team leaders and the squad leader, who should be telling dudes what to do, not running around with a sword.

 

This is based on the German WWII concept of "our infantry squads have multiple weapons to deal with multiple threats." Others call this "duality." I call this WIN. A few combi-metlas allow Sternguard squad to handle anti-tank in a pinch for those one or two engagements where it is needed. Not everyone needs one, but a few combi-meltas and heavy flamers make sternguard squads excelent.

[DerekLee688]

Codex:SM tac's need something extra, combi-X seems like the cheapest extra that matters. Versus our fellow PA we don't have Furious Charge, Fell no Pain, extra CC weapon, any special sergents, or Counter Attack. Otherwise it's superior manuvering and support that will carry the day.