How to equip your tried and true CSM squads

[BDS]

Not to get too far off topic with the dual flamer and IC in a rhino posts, but to dicuss the uses of a flamer squad would be beneficial.

 

I would be curious how others are utilizing their flamer squads.

 

I used to play 10 man, 2 melta, PF and Icon

 

Now I switched then over to 10 man, 2 flamers, PF and Icon wich I have to say is a way better role for them.

 

Both in Rhino ofcourse.

 

 

Vissah could you explain how this squad does well for you and how you support it? How does it do in an all comer role, i.e. are you in a group that has few MEQ's?

 

I currently run a Plague Marine squad with dual flamers, PF chmp, rhino and it does....ok.

 

My thoughts with this set up were thus:

 

• Flamers should always go in a rhino or faster delivery system
  

  
  

• ...walking flamers don't seem logical to me.

  
  

• Once close enough to use a flamer makes you susceptible to assult or commits you to an assault
  

  
  

• ...Plague marines should do well here, as receiving assaults is where they shine, allowing the use of rapid fire bolters

  
  

  
  

• I then try to use the PM's to hold up the depleted squad long enought for a counter charge or finish them off in my opponents CC phase

  
  

• ...Using the flamers then assaulting too convincingly could leave the squad open to return fire in my oppoents shooting phase
  

  
  

• ......Depleting the squad with flamers, receiving an assault and then finishing off in my opponents CC phase would be the better goal in most cases

  
  

 

So, what are some other good flamer squads and what should they be used for?

 

My thinking on what to use a flamer squad for:

• Clearing out hordes of low armor save models
  
• Denying cover saves to low armor save models or large groups
  
• Causing enough wounds by muliple templates to damage MEQ's, especially when tightly grouped
  
• Moving to a forward objective and clearing it out, claiming objective or moving on.
  
• Back line defense for outflankers (many of which are low armor save models, scouts, gene stealers, etc)
  
• Used in conjunction with assault unit/unit good at receivning an assult as proximity of use leads inevitably to assault.
  

 

Curious if other players have additional uses.

 

So with that in mind what makes a good flamer squad?

 

• Fast enough to control use (proactive vs reactive) and redeploy.
  
• Multiple templates
  
• Good in assault or good at surviving assault
  
• Able to withstand a few casualties
  
• Good leadership or fearless
  
• Troop choice would be a bonus
  
• Able to deliver additional tactical uses (Icons, Grtr Deamon, melta and kraks)
  
• Hit and Run would be awesome, but we no longer have it.
  

 

Following through here are my ideas, very curious what others have had success with and how they go about using their squads.

 

Suggested Flamer squads (with CSM codex):

 

1. #10 CSM, 2 flamers, PF chmp (with or without combi flamer), Icon of Chaos Glory, rhino extra armor (optional, but assiss with purpose of squad), combi melta (optional, but if you take a combi wpn...take a combi melta for the chance of peeling a can and toasting the contents)

 

Benefits: Medium cost, troop choice, good numbers, good movement, can summon in deep strikers, etc., can perform anti-tank in CC

 

Optional use of Icon of Slaanesh may help in both receiving or delivering an assault, despite loss of LD reroll.

 

2. #5 to ? Plague Marines, 2 flamers, PF chmp (with or withou combi flamer), rhino as above for same reasons.

 

Benefits: Medium to high cost, two specials in less than 10 man squad, Toop choice, good movement, very good survival rate, can include low cost icon if beneficial, can perfrom anti-tank in CC

 

3. #3 to ? Bikers, 2 flamers, PF and melta bomb, or just melta bomb, Icon of Chaos Glory.

 

Benefits: High mobility, low cost in low numbers, use of invul after turbo, can perfrom anti tank in CC, medium survivability, versatile for lake turn objective contesting.

Cons: High cost in high numbers or with certain Icons, low numbers for casulties in 3 or 4 man squads, non troop choice.

 

4. #5 Raptors (can add more to taste), 2 flamers, Asp Chmp with various wargear, no option for combi wpn.,Icon of Chaos Glory

 

Benefits: Low cost (untill adding extras, 5 man with two flamers, IoCG is only 120pts), can be kitted out for CC anti-tank, and fair in assault, good movement.

Cons: Non Troop, low survivability

 

5. #6 to 10 Havocs, 4 flamers, Asp Chmp with Combi Flamer with or without PF, Icon of Chaos Glory, Rhino as mentioned above.

 

Benefits: Fair cost, good numbers and mobility, High number of templates, fair CC, fair survivability

Cons: Non Troop choice, medium-high cost when tricked out

 

6. #5 to 10 Chosen, 5 Flamers, melta bombs to taste, rhino as above

 

Benefits: Outflank ability adds to good movement, high template count, ability to anti-mech with multiple Melta bombs if desired, medium-high cost, medium surviviability

Cons: Non troops, cost.

 

7. #3 to ? CSM Terminators, Heavy flamer (1 per 5 models), combi flamers to taste, chain fist to taste, icon to taste

 

Benifits: Low cost in low numbers, Deep strike, good survivability, can anti-mech

Cons: Slow after arrival, non troop, situational use

 

Now each squad can be greately enhanced by the addition of one or two Sorcerors, Lords, or Special Characters tricked out to support the use of the squad.

 

The biggest question to me would begin at; "Do I want this to be a troop choice or not?"

 

The most flamey death Troop squad of all?

 

7 PM's, 2 flamers, PF champ with combi flamer, Lucius, and Huron Blackheart, rhino as above.

 

Troop squad, 5 flamer total (none needing psychic tests), includes one AP3 flamer, one heavy Flamer, good in assault, very pricey.

**could swap out for two socerors with Wind of Chaos but could be nerfed with anti psych gear**

**Almost as good same squad as above with adding two Lords with wings and combi flamer and deamon weapon, allows for 5 flamers, but the ability from one rhino to jump out and hit three squads with mulitple flamers and perfrom 3 seprate assaults depending on location/positioning, etc.**

 

Flamiest squad of all?

 

1. How about the Chosen with 5 flamers and two winged lords with combi flamers and deamon weapons...7 flamers with extras as mentioned

 

 

Ah, sorry for the long read if you have suffered this long, thank you for your patience.

 

I now have a vision of building a choisen or Havoc squad with 5 flamers with two Tzeentch winged sorceros with wind of chaos and warptime zooming forward in a rhino popping smoke, quitely weathering return fire, to jump out after my anti-mech opens up some cans and create a giant slag heap in the middle of my opponents lines!!! Yummy.

 

BDS

[irongryphon]

Ah, sorry for the long read if you have suffered this long, thank you for your patience.

Indeed.

 

Anyhow, I was just wondering If anyone equips their csms with cc weapons or is it bolters all around? Seems that it could work with csms with assault weapons that are probably going to end up in melee combat anyways.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Anyhow, I was just wondering If anyone equips their csms with cc weapons or is it bolters all around? Seems that it could work with csms with assault weapons that are probably going to end up in melee combat anyways.

CSM's Have Bolters, BP's and CCW's as standard?

[BDS]

CSM's come with bolter, bolt pistol, and cc wpn standard. I think most equip them mixing each loadout and group in squads to taste to depict it. I know I do.

 

BDS

[Warsmith Aznable]

CSM's come with bolter, bolt pistol, and cc wpn standard. I think most equip them mixing each loadout and group in squads to taste to depict it. I know I do.

 

Same. I'm going for an even mix of the two. I think that when you have them all mixed up like that it shows the variety of Chaos and presents a good image on the table. I also accidentally made an entire squad with the CCW load-out, so made the next one with nothing but Bolters... I was tired when I was modeling that night...

[Agemo]

CSM's come with bolter, bolt pistol, and cc wpn standard. I think most equip them mixing each loadout and group in squads to taste to depict it. I know I do.

 

When I first started playing 40k and was building my CSM battleforce, I didn't realize that each marine had the bolter and pistol/cc loadout standard ( I thought they had to choose which guns to take), and I did a lot of hard thinking about how many cc guys or bolter guys I wanted to in my squads, (should I model him with a sword or a bolter?). So it left me with a pretty even load out on the table now, which I would of done anyway.

 

Ah, my beginner days, when my defiler would shoot his battlecannon and his reaper autocannon and flamer in the same turn at my brothers Tau.........

[Warsmith Aznable]

Ah, my beginner days, when my defiler would shoot his battlecannon and his reaper autocannon and flamer in the same turn at my brothers Tau.........

 

OK, I am new at this, but the BRB says "Walkers can move and fire all of their weapons, just like a stationary vehicle." Which I read as a Defiler being able to do exactly that.

[nurglez]

not really about chaos squads, but about plague marine squads....

 

In my 1500 point deathgurd army, I have 4 squads of 7, 2 squads have 2 melta and a champ with fist and combi flamer each, 1 squad just has 2 melta guns and the last one has 2 plasma guns.

 

I originally ran the fist squads with 2 flamers each and no combi flamer, but I found that melta spam works, it works against vehicles and it works vs troops (ok you only can kill 2 troops with it, but you can assault after ), adding a combi flamer to 2 squads really helped at times.

 

I would take these "tactics" to regular chaos squads too, having a squad with 2 flamers is just, well, great vs troops but useless vs vehicles at any range (apart from armor 10 vehicles and lets face it, I'd rather fire bolters at vehicles then a flamer).

 

So my ideal squad would be with 2 melta, icon of chaos glory and a champ with fist and combi flamer :D

[Mr. Sandbot]

not really about chaos squads, but about plague marine squads....

 

In my 1500 point deathgurd army, I have 4 squads of 7, 2 squads have 2 melta and a champ with fist and combi flamer each, 1 squad just has 2 melta guns and the last one has 2 plasma guns.

 

I originally ran the fist squads with 2 flamers each and no combi flamer, but I found that melta spam works, it works against vehicles and it works vs troops (ok you only can kill 2 troops with it, but you can assault after ;)), adding a combi flamer to 2 squads really helped at times.

 

I would take these "tactics" to regular chaos squads too, having a squad with 2 flamers is just, well, great vs troops but useless vs vehicles at any range (apart from armor 10 vehicles and lets face it, I'd rather fire bolters at vehicles then a flamer).

 

So my ideal squad would be with 2 melta, icon of chaos glory and a champ with fist and combi flamer ;)

 

Recently I've just been running two squads of 2x melta, IOCG and no champ. I don't bring the champ just to accommodate the large point cost of my rubric marines. So far they've been doing their job of taking out tanks and fishing my Tsons out of CC.

 

Out of curiosity, how is 2x plasma on basic CSM been for everyone? I don't hear people talk about them very much.

[Agemo]

Ah, my beginner days, when my defiler would shoot his battlecannon and his reaper autocannon and flamer in the same turn at my brothers Tau.........

 

OK, I am new at this, but the BRB says "Walkers can move and fire all of their weapons, just like a stationary vehicle." Which I read as a Defiler being able to do exactly that.

 

 

The BRB also states that when you fire ordinance weapons (i.e. the BattleCannon) you can't fire anything else. Though their reason for it ( requires the attention of all of the gunners) doesn't really apply to our possessed war engine.

[Dan VK]

10 Chaos Marines

2 Melta Guns

Aspiring Champ w/ Power Fist and Combi Melta

Icon of Chaos Glory

Rhino

 

This is my standard unit, too. I usually upgrade the Rhino with Extra Armor and a Pintle-Mounted Combi-Melta, too.

[Brother Nihm]

Ah, my beginner days, when my defiler would shoot his battlecannon and his reaper autocannon and flamer in the same turn at my brothers Tau.........

 

OK, I am new at this, but the BRB says "Walkers can move and fire all of their weapons, just like a stationary vehicle." Which I read as a Defiler being able to do exactly that.

 

 

The BRB also states that when you fire ordinance weapons (i.e. the BattleCannon) you can't fire anything else. Though their reason for it ( requires the attention of all of the gunners) doesn't really apply to our possessed war engine.

Which is why the Lascannon upgrade is a horrible choice. :blush:

[Warsmith Aznable]

Ah, my beginner days, when my defiler would shoot his battlecannon and his reaper autocannon and flamer in the same turn at my brothers Tau.........

 

OK, I am new at this, but the BRB says "Walkers can move and fire all of their weapons, just like a stationary vehicle." Which I read as a Defiler being able to do exactly that.

 

 

The BRB also states that when you fire ordinance weapons (i.e. the BattleCannon) you can't fire anything else. Though their reason for it ( requires the attention of all of the gunners) doesn't really apply to our possessed war engine.

 

Ah, I hadn't read that. Too bad... :huh:

[the jeske]

why did you think people run defilers with extra ccw only ?

[Rain]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the point of flamers is to use them in conjunction with tank shock. You disembark the squad, and then you use the rhino to tank shock in a "hook" path through and around the enemy squad, which (assuming they pass their LD check) forces them to move and assemble into kind of a clustered tear drop shape which fits very conveniently under flamer templates. This can be used to bunch large ork mobs and other such things and turn em into crispy critters. Some people might call this "cheesy" but I call it tactics :devil:

[Agemo]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but the point of flamers is to use them in conjunction with tank shock. You disembark the squad, and then you use the rhino to tank shock in a "hook" path through and around the enemy squad, which (assuming they pass their LD check) forces them to move and assemble into kind of a clustered tear drop shape which fits very conveniently under flamer templates. This can be used to bunch large ork mobs and other such things and turn em into crispy critters. Some people might call this "cheesy" but I call it tactics :P

 

Some people might call this cheesy, or tactics, but I call this (as I understand it from your post) illegal. :down:

 

The BRB states that when tank shocking, you can only move in a straight line, no other changes of direction are allowed (aside from aiming the tank {pivoting}).

 

Though, you could still use a rhino to bunch up an enemy unit, it just wont be as effective as the hook path. Also, only models that end up under the tank are moved ( the shortest possible distance) if the LD is passed.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Some people might call this cheesy, or tactics, but I call this (as I understand it from your post) illegal. :P

 

The BRB states that when tank shocking, you can only move in a straight line, no other changes of direction are allowed (aside from aiming the tank {pivoting}).

This is true.

[Brother Aiwass]

Tried CSM combos, all with 10 man, champ, PF, IoCG, rhino:

 

Combi-melta, meltagun, flamer: Not very good against plaguerines or FNP, regular tarpit unit.

 

2x flamer, combi-melta: Nice against hordes, tried against orks and nids. With rhino is also a nasty choice when you're tank shocking a unit and then double flamer template!

 

1x plasmagun, 1x autocannon. tried just once, but was a great battle against BA. Wiped an incoming landspeeder in sight, soften a assault squad with librarian and hold-em enought to give time to the near zerkers.

 

The last two are the most that I liked.

[Zhukov]

Currently my CSM squad setup of choice is:

 

Autocannnon/meltagun + a Champ with Combimelta + Powerfist. (in a rhino ofc)

 

Most flexible setup in my opinion; 2x melta CSM and Berzerkers are lacking against too many armies for me at the moment. The Autcannon is especially nice against DE/Eldar/Vendetta builds/Rhino rush builds. But overall is just gives the unit more options; which is good. And yes that means I'm going to run with 2x Plague marines + 2x CSM in my tourney lists from now on, instead of 2x Plague + 2x Zerkers.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Currently my CSM squad setup of choice is:

 

Autocannnon/meltagun + a Champ with Combimelta + Powerfist. (in a rhino ofc)

Hmmm... Interested as to why you run this. Surely the stationary nature of the AC negates the Close Range strength of a Melta, and vice-versa.

[Zhukov]

Well you gotta look at the 'investment' in regard to the 'potential' it gives you. For me it gives the CSM unit a lot of extra potential for only a small investment (10 points + forgoing the option of another special). In many situations I would wish I had 2 extra AC's during the first turns. Its a trade-off in the end, no win-win situation of course, buts its a wortwhile trade-off I say.

 

But apart from the 'autocannon or extra special debate', I'm stearing away from advocating Berzerkers for sure... which makes me a little bit sad as they are my favourite unit but they are too lacking for highly competative play I found out lately. (had some discussions with other people about it). They are very 1-dimensional (only doing stuff in CC), but thats not the worst thing: the bad part is that they do this 1 job too innefective; you wont reliably get charges off against really good openents, assaulting from Rhinos is lacking in the end. But I had problems seeing this myself as I never really got any problems with this; but I lately realised this is probably due to my openents not being able to prevent me this... CSM squads at least can hop out and rapid fire to give them a bigger threat range. It would have been better if Plasma pistols costed 5 points, then you could take 2 Plasma pistols and a combimelta to give them more utility overall... The fact that they die as fast as regular Marines doesnt help either (taking into account the lack of a reliable way of getting into CC; you end footslogging too many times)

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Well you gotta look at the 'investment' in regard to the 'potential' it gives you. For me it gives the CSM unit a lot of extra potential for only a small investment (10 points + forgoing the option of another special). In many situations I would wish I had 2 extra AC's during the first turns. Its a trade-off in the end, no win-win situation of course, buts its a wortwhile trade-off I say.

I was meaning why the Melta with the AC. I understand the benefits of AC's (As an Iron Warrior, they are both fluffy and powerful.) I've enjoyed running them as Campers with a Plasma Gun before and found them effective, but the short range of the Melta just puts me off having AC+Melta. Athough I can see where it would be good against fast transports/assault walkers.

[Brother Aiwass]

Plasma isn't very good against high AV but i thinkthat sinergizes well with the AC. So I'm wondering how works that melta-AC combo in terms of versatility/effectiveness.

[Zhukov]

With Melta + Combimelta you can still choose to 'ignore' the fact that you have an Autcannon and act as a 'normal' squad instead if you want/need to. Single plasmagun kinda sucks and a combiplasma is never really an option (champ killing yay). I would rather not put plasma on normal CSM in the first place when Plague Marines can take them too... but if you want to I would go with 2 plasmaguns (and then no AC). Plasma/AC is only possibly good for an objective camper or when you try to do a gunline (which fails with CSM ofc).

 

Against armies which just outshoot you (not DE or Eldar, even though you outshoot them you'll need the AC's against them to crippl their mobility partly first), you can rush forward and hop out to slag a tank; 1 plasmagun wont do this.

 

Therefore AC + melta/combimelta is the most versatile (in a good way) setup in the current state of 40k. Its because of all the new codices that I like this chance now; it sometimes takes a while to see what impact they have. But I havent really tested it and yet and I'm afraid I wont play many tourneys with my CSM either... But I'm pretty confident that it works like I think it does.

[Supreme Overlord]

I use an equal mix of the Double-Plasma squads and the Double-Melta-With-A-Fist. All have the Icon of Chaos Glory which is very handy when you happen to fail an easy morale check you need to pass (everyones done it). Double-melta squads are versatile and can perform well in most areas but lack the Marine killing power of plasma squads which I really like. Small heavy units can be wiped in a single round of shooting if you choose your targets right and larger ones can by combining the firepower of two double-plasma squads together. That, and most players who use terminators keep their tactical dreadnought armour away from your plasma squads, which is handy when you don't want big death squads of doom killing your Troops.

 

Its all up to personal preference and playstyle really, but I find an equal mix of plasma and melta is the way to go (unless your gaming group or club does not have the usual number of Marine players, but thats an exception).