Whirlwind tactics

[Hellios]

Against razorspam or some other all AV11 list I've seen 2-3 get knocked out on turn one, but I have a feeling some people are overestimating the anti-vehicle output. And no, I don't typically play heavy melta. Usually its missile launchers (typhoon, CML) for getting at light transports, but have been looking at getting in some riflemen dreds too.

 

Seems like everyone is trying to justify WW as the best thing ever. I simply said... it sounds good against Orks, Nids, and others... but sounds like weak sauce against SM. I still see no reason I would ever want a WW over a vindicator against SM. That doesn't mean I think WW is the worst unit ever made. Its just not as good as other option in one matchup. Here... that is a big deal since power armor is everywhere. I imagine somewhere else where SM is less common that WW would be better. One thing to point out is that nobody here plays with WW so if I were to drop one on the table nobody would really know what to expect. They may over or under estimate its capabilities. As I said before, I am in favor of playing with units that "everyone knows are bad" so I can actually see this as one benefit to running WW. But at the end of the day, still not convinced it is better than average against SM.

 

-Myst

 

Well what I was saying is I just have to stun you and I'm good... I don't need to make you explode... what I get on the damage table is all luck... I mean I've got five pens on a vehicle and done nothing but shake it >.<

 

I don't think anyone is trying to say it is the best thing ever... and I'm sure you would get a lot of people telling you a vindicator is no good or that a lot of the predator builds are no good... Also you have to understand that peoople may noty be building lists to take on Marines... they may be building all comers lists but the main issue people seem to have is that it is bad against marines... which it is not at 85pts and getting to shoot from turn 1 you can easily kill 6 space marines... and part of its worth is that if it is left alone it can do damage... more than it should... but on the other hand if people get carried away and too focused on killing it they can lose the game by being stupid.

 

As for MWilhelm... on dimishing returns... well if you have killed everything on the table none of your units will be killing anything... but on that note you don't need to kill as much... it is early in the game where loses make the most significant difference... Some games are close but other are obvious by turn 3 if not before. Also I wouldn't trust a BT for expertise on Whirlwinds ;) Also I'm not convinced that preds do kill more over a game... and I run more preds than I run whirlwinds... (hurting my own arguement?) but I don't run them for the same role...

 

As I say I think it is all a matter of play style... and army construction...

[Mysticaria]

I've never said what I actually think of the WW, I think similar to both Marshal Wilhelm and Myst in that its a very niche weapon, and its something I don't enjoy much in my army.

 

2" or less scatter = rolling 6 or less on two dice

There are a total of 36 outcomes (OC), rolling two is 1 OC, three 2 OC, four 3 OC, five 4 OC, six 5 OC, so

rolling 6 or less on two dice = (1+2+3+4+5)/36 = (3+3+4+5)/36 = (6+4+5)/36 = 15/36

So wrong on my part, I get it to 61%, but for sake of removing any errors, I'm rounding it off to 60% plus/minus 5% :D

Fair enough. Either way it is higher than I thought. Doesn't seem like my vindicators hit that much and it is the same math.

 

-Myst

[Marshal Wilhelm]

So at JK duality but surely that is the arguement for power fists... but in that case you are against it... Tactical squads can threaten infantry with bolter fire... (maybe special or heavy wep fire depending on what you take)... Tactical squads might be able to threaten MCs with bolter-fire combined with special weapons and heavy weapons fire... tactical marines might be able to threaten armour with spec and heavy wep fire... they can also do all those things with a powerfist... I thought you liked to have defined roles for your units?

 

I don't know what you guys have been talking about previously, but that won't stop me from wading into it :)

 

The dakka Pred has duality. It is intrinsic to its load out. Those 6 HB and 2 AC shots kill men, monstrous creatures and can damage AV 10 [11 by virtue of volume of glances, with regards to the HB]

 

The dakka Pred comes to you like that in its own sealed packet.

 

Tacs are made for killing men, generally. You buy them a special and heavy weapon for a role of Backfield [LC] or Midfield [MM]. With those examples, you are paying a little more once you go past the ML+Flamer standard issue, but not very much. But you are not changing the 'sealed packet' very much in terms of points.

 

The PF is expensive [Wolves get theirs for 5 pts less & they have counter attack via the Wolf Guard] and whilst useful, doesn't really match what the squad does. I would guess you are meaning taking a PF for the Midfield squads only? They have a MM, which is ferocious. Any of the Special weapons compliments the MM well. If you fire the MM, you won't be able to assault with the PF anyway. If you have Ultra-tactics, it isn't really an issue by losing the assault by one or two more, as you want to be able to flee away anyway. It is more viable for the Chapters who give up ultra-tactics.

 

For Crusaders or Berzerkers, the PF is excellent, as it gives an excuse to assault AV, which gains you up to 6" per turn, bringing you closer to those infantry

 

But for Tacs, it is an odd juxtaposition whose use might only be for a couple of turns per game. Whenever they assault infantry, they are throwing away the safety of the second bolter shot [compared to the bolt pistol] to get the PF into the fray. Sure it might save you against being Dreadlocked, but two s8 attacks probably wont do that any way. It is more a glimmer of hope. A good number of guys using krak grenades on the near universal AV10 should do it against most tanks.

 

It is expensive insurance, imo. I'd rather trade 3 PFs for a MM HF Speeder, whose armaments don't class like the Tacs + PF does. It also adds another unit, which makes for another unit shooting and another unit that has to be killed.

2 PFs for a MM Attack Bike. The ABike hides behind the Rhino and brings a peek-a-boo attack against that Dread.

 

Those are my thoughts on the matter :)

[Hellios]

The PF is expensive [Wolves get theirs for 5 pts less & they have counter attack via the Wolf Guard] and whilst useful, doesn't really match what the squad does. I would guess you are meaning taking a PF for the Midfield squads only? They have a MM, which is ferocious. Any of the Special weapons compliments the MM well. If you fire the MM, you won't be able to assault with the PF anyway. If you have Ultra-tactics, it isn't really an issue by losing the assault by one or two more, as you want to be able to flee away anyway. It is more viable for the Chapters who give up ultra-tactics.

 

For Crusaders or Berzerkers, the PF is excellent, as it gives an excuse to assault AV, which gains you up to 6" per turn, bringing you closer to those infantry

 

But for Tacs, it is an odd juxtaposition whose use might only be for a couple of turns per game. Whenever they assault infantry, they are throwing away the safety of the second bolter shot [compared to the bolt pistol] to get the PF into the fray. Sure it might save you against being Dreadlocked, but two s8 attacks probably wont do that any way. It is more a glimmer of hope. A good number of guys using krak grenades on the near universal AV10 should do it against most tanks.

 

Those are my thoughts on the matter :)

 

Oh I don't generally disagree... But I believe in taking the fight to the enemy (something I'm sure you know about as a BT) because as long as you are not falling into the enemies trap you can keep the intiative... however this often means I get closer to big guns than I want to be... compared to say my Dark Angels list that is low on fists but in most cases will zzap those guns... I often want to be in combat... I lose my double tap (although I often get a pistol shot + 2 on the charge... even if they need 4's) but it isn't my offensive output that I want so much as cover from enemy fire... I like the fist as it means I don't need to be so picky... I find a tactical squad with a fist can take a carnifex if they have to... maybe I'm just a jammy roller I've never mathed hammered that :) although I tend to stay away from Trygons and Hive Tyrants :P

 

I fear I may have disrailed the topic a bit XD.

[Grey Mage]

With regards to the Dakka Pred, I think it is a better tank. Lets say you get your foe out of his transports and start shelling him with the WW. Each turn you kill less and less guys with it. Like in a y = √x graph. The more shots you take at a unit, the less targets you have to hit. They are harder to land the template on in the first place and when you do drop it on them, you get fewer hits. A WW will only get a few choice hits against a given squad. The dakka Pred has no such problem.

So because the Dakka Pred has less potential to start with its a better tank? Really MW?

 

I mean I can understand that AV 13 helps via target saturation, and thats a valid point, but the idea that youll start punishing squads past the point of diminishing returns is kinda silly dont you think? How often have you had only one unhorsed squad over the course of three turns?

 

Ive used the dakkapred- it was a letdown, and completely uninspiring in its roll of infantry supression. Enemy light infantry- from fire warriors to ork boyz took cover saves against every shot if my opponent had any skill with maneuvers, and relocating it was fairly painful with its inability to move and fire. The Annihilator had similar issues with cost/benefit in an anti-tank roll, particularly in comparison to long fangs.... and Ive got plenty of missile launchers for light armor killing... so why take a combi-pred?

[DarkGuard]

Unfortunately I've not been able to acquire first hand experience with these tanks myself, but I've seen others use them.

 

Now as far as rules etc go, I really feel it all depends. Is indirect fire scatter large blast better than 8 direct shots? Well, no, not really, as chances are, unless your opponent is clumped up or unless your accuracy with non-TL weapons is unerring, these are going to hit roughly the same amount of guys. Then as for the wound chart, most of the shots from the dakka pred are S5, so that's wounding the same as far as Marines and well anything is concerned, unless of course, you're using incendiary missiles with the Whirlwind.

 

And surely, this is a point very much in the Whirlwind's favour. In recent discussions about Tactical squads flamers have been mentioned as good choices for their cheapness and ability to ignore cover saves which are more prevalent. Well haven't we got this with the Whirlwind for cheaper than a 10 man Tactical squad with Rhino? A dakka pred cannot deny cover, it can certainly put a large amount of wounds onto that unit and hope they fail saves, but unlike the Whirlwind, unlike the flamer it can't take out one of the most prevalent and important things in 40k now, cover.

 

Plus the fact is that this vehicle can hide behind cover, and either fire large blast flamers or heavy bolter profiles depending on the situation, so you have a choice there. Tau unit stranded out in the open? Direct hit from normal Whirlwind missiles will put a dent in that unit, and most likely pin or make them fall back due to their leadership. Unit of Eldar pathfinders in cover? Drop an incendiary missile on them and they have no armour or cover saves.

 

True, the Whirlwind isn't amazing against vehicles, but as has been noted already it can possibly knock out light vehicles with it's hitting on side armour with 2D6+5 vehicle penetration. It surely can't be argued that the dakka pred is better at taking down light vehicles due to its autocannon. But we have much better choices for killing light armour (rifleman dreads, Typhoons, combi-preds) and so I normally think that in choosing between the Whirlwind and dakka pred, we are choosing between a vehicle designed to kill infantry, and that is what both of these vehicles do. Therefore, it comes down to personal preference, army composition, and what one needs.

 

Now in my case, I'd choose the Whirlwind over the dakka pred. The reason being I prefer the Whirlwind model, like the idea of rolling artillery supporting the advance, and I already have two Vindicators and rifleman Dreads in my list, so I have saturation covered and long-ranged anti-transport. I have filled the roles that the dakka pred can also do already, and for the chances of multiple hits with the large blast, the fact that I can ignore cover with it and the fact that I can hide it behind cover makes it more attractive for me. It'll live longer, shoot more, and perhaps kill a lot of guys, perhaps not, but it'll be a nuisance. Yeah I could roll 12" scatter while firing indirectly all of the time, but then I could roll 8 1s and 2s when firing with the dakka pred. In the end, as far as accuracy is concerned, its all down to luck :tu:.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Like all debates in tactica about whether x is better than y, it all depends on your army. A whirlwind works best with certain unit choices. For example, typhoons deal with the light/medium armor, MCS and medium infantry (actually I'd venture to say typhoons can tackle any problem), multimelta tacticals and MM/HF speeders take care of heavy armor whilst whirlwinds smash through light infantry.

 

The best question to ask is if the whirly has a good role in your army/playstyle.

[shatter]

I use 20 sniper scouts and 3 HK WWs to support my assault unit(s).

 

I love indirect fire.

 

Love it. I target the centre of their overall deployment and rely on scatter management to create chaos.

 

It forces the enemy to get out of cover and come to me, making my terminators move relatively faster. Ie, Their stuff has to move up else I'll sit back and just pound away... and they have to do it before they run out of troops. So all their stuff comes toward the loving embrace of my termies.

 

BTW, whirlies can still direct fire up the rear of vehicles should one have said facing as a target.

[deepstrike]

Friend of mine plays Space wolves and he always has a whirlwind. It always seems to do very well. I regularly play imperial guard and chaos space marines while our other regular opponent runs tyranids. It has proven very flexible against us.

[captain sox]

I'm with Grey Mage. I occasionally field WWs as they're kind of like a very long ranged heavy flamer that I can completely hide behind hard cover. It's 90 points of "Hey, here's four to six wounds on your MEQ squad that you need to save for." Can a Dakka Predator do better? Sure, in a vacuum. But how about on a table with a LOT of LOS-blocking buildings? Now your Dakka has to pick which of my units it offers support fire. My WW can offer support fire to virtually any of my units. My Tac squad across the board needs a little more fire power? Here comes the artillery.

 

Don't discount things because vacuum-powered Mathhammer says something else is better. There is a distinct difference between how good a model looks on paper and how well a model performs on any given table. And if you haven't fielded a list with three WWs in it yet, proxy one this week and see how ridiculously fun it can be. Pinning checks for my targets at -1? Yes, please.

 

Thade makes a good point here, they are good in numbers. I showed up to a freindly game with 3 of them, and my opponents were not amused. I used the points and added a Hunter Killer Missile to each, for that added punch.

 

Unless you upgrade your Predators with Lascannons, your hitting targets with the same AP 4 as the Whirlwind, and the Whirly also can ignore cover.

 

Don't get me wrong, I do like both vehicles alot, and I use both vehicled often. But for arguments sake, for the same costs, I'd take the AP 4 of the Whirlwind vs the AP 4 of the Predator.

[thade]

Don't get me wrong, I do like both vehicles alot, and I use both vehicled often. But for arguments sake, for the same costs, I'd take the AP 4 of the Whirlwind vs the AP 4 of the Predator.

 

And Str 5's not that bad compared to Str 7; wounding on 3s instead of 2s vs MEQ, but potentially inflicting more hits at range. Not to mention hitting Side Armor with Ordinance, and the -1 Pinning check. They're fun, I really recommend trying them in a few of your fun-lists to see what you can get out of them.

[DarkGuard]

Don't get me wrong, I do like both vehicles alot, and I use both vehicled often. But for arguments sake, for the same costs, I'd take the AP 4 of the Whirlwind vs the AP 4 of the Predator.

 

And Str 5's not that bad compared to Str 7; wounding on 3s instead of 2s vs MEQ, but potentially inflicting more hits at range. Not to mention hitting Side Armor with Ordinance, and the -1 Pinning check. They're fun, I really recommend trying them in a few of your fun-lists to see what you can get out of them.

 

Not to mention that the majority of a dakka preds shots are S5, so you're only missing out on a couple of rolls to wound of 2+, if they hit.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Im not sure what to make of the whirlwind...its cheap...really cheap and can hide away shooting at what you want and even if its destroyed its not much you've lost. Sure the dakka pred is cheap too, but it can't hide away and make targetting it such a nuiscence, but then the dakka pred isn't capable of blowing apart your own units via scatter either, has better armour and plenty of decent firepower...

 

The whirlwind is something i cant quite get my head around.....

[Brother Tual]

A whirly is a great 'fun' unit with alot of potential. I have found itr most rewarding against Mech Eldar - not because it does kill units, but because my enemy knows it CAN kill units. Watch as your enemy hesitates to deploy avengers from wave serpents (who are otherwise perfectly placed to excat some serious doom/guide bladestorm hurt) for fear that a decent hit will wipe the whole squad.

 

I like the whirly because it teams up well in 5th ed vs mech lists. It sounds strange to say the whirly is a great anti - mech unit but combo it with typhoons or riflemen dreads it supplys the hurt on the forced out unit that otherwise makes mech very hard to deal with... actually killing the troops.

 

I dont think we have a unit LIKE the whirly available to us. You can mirror it to some degree with a T fire or template spam but having the indirect fire makes it a hell of alot more harder to take out with a stray first turn shot. The whirly is a continuous unit, it is not as explosive in effect as a vindicator or drop stern guard unit but it provides attrition characters to a list which is sadly generally overlooked in todays gaming environment in favour of 'everything must die in one turn'.

[greatcrusade08]

Whirlies are fun, but with the choice ill take a t-fire every time

[Hellios]

Whirlies are fun, but with the choice ill take a t-fire every time

 

And we will do as life dicates and defeat you every time... No the Thunderfire is also a really great weapon... It is all situational... I can see a lot of situations where a TFC would be better than a Whirlies but I can also see the times when Whirlies would.

[waaanial00]

Tried the Whirlwind a bunch of times, at the start I had great luck with it but the doom of a single scattering template started to errode its in game effects on me and I found it was just dead weight in my list. Started taking a thunderfire and suddenly I had much more positive returns.

 

The potential of a Whirly looks great on paper but my large template shots just scatter too much, I prefer the greater number of templates from the Thunderfire. More chances of getting less scatters. Plus the chance of actually getting more hits on one squad than there are members of that squad, something you cannot do with a Whirlwind.

 

People can throw out there that it is fragile all they want. Its fragile nature is exactly what tempts people to shoot at it in the first place, not so fragile with a 3+ cover save and the fact that it is either killing the techmarine or freeing him up. Have never had it taken out turn 1.

 

@Helios, it sounds like I am attacking you but its a real pet annoyance of mine. You are using "..." a lot. Do you know where it is supposed to be used because you seem to be throwing it in there when you could be using "." or ",". As I said its just a pet annoyance which I try and get people to stop doing.

[Hellios]

@Helios, it sounds like I am attacking you but its a real pet annoyance of mine. You are using "..." a lot. Do you know where it is supposed to be used because you seem to be throwing it in there when you could be using "." or ",". As I said its just a pet annoyance which I try and get people to stop doing.

 

I like my long pauses... even when speaking... and now it has spread to my written word. I don't see that many people using "..." at least nowhere near as much as I do... maybe to leave something hanging at the end.

 

Also I'm not the greek god of the sun :'(

 

I'm not worried about attacks anyway... It is a sad day when you get concerned over what the 'internet' has to say.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

The whirlwind is something that i quite like the sound of the more i look at it, not because its a big threat or anything but as something to target units accorss the board and soften them up. I mean in tandem with another vehicle like the combi-pred, one could open up transports and the WW can then place some hurt onto the squad that was inside before something else, possibly even a tactical squad, comes a long to finish off the squad. It could also do well at bombarding units on objectives or entrenched units.

 

Firing from a hidden position is a bonus, though being able to fire directly also sounds pretty good!

[thade]

Completely off-topic. Over-use of ellipses in written English is tragic. It no longer carries any wait and nobody pays mind to that "implicit pause". I support the period. ;)

 

That said, I also support the WW. Because of nightmare stories I've heard of the model, I've never tried the TFC. Now that I use the BA dex, I cannot. ;)

[Jackelope King]

That said, I also support the WW. Because of nightmare stories I've heard of the model, I've never tried the TFC. Now that I use the BA dex, I cannot. :(

The Thunderfire has one advantage over the Whirlwind: multiple shots really make a big difference. The special ammo is nice too, but the Whirlwind already covers both of the basics.

 

However, the Thunderfire is probably the worst heavy support choice in Codex: Space Marines. It is an expensive alpha-strike. It dies when a stiff breeze blows on it. It has zero mobility. Any army with any sort of ranged fire support will kill it very, very easily. I used to use two of them, and I know how well they wipe the floor with hordes (and yeah, you need to field at least two of them, because without 2+ cover saves in ruins, they're going to die very fast). However, they are not a viable choice for an all-comers list, as far as ranged support is concerned.

 

Dakka Preds still almost always get my vote, though.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Thing is jackelope, do whirlwinds do any better in your books for an all comers?

 

I think what you say makes great sense, that the thunderfire is very static, as the WW can be, but the WW can also scoot and reposition itself to capitalise on different things.

 

If anything the WW trades some firepower for better armour and mobility?

 

Note: I generally don't like including multiples of units either, so do these firebases lose power from only being a single unit too?

[greatcrusade08]

my own all comers list fields two t-fires and i find them very effective.. moreso against MEQ than hordes tbh.

 

i often laugh when people tell me they arent effective, only a bad workman blames his tolls.

the damage output of the t-fire is more than worth its inclusion.. its down to the player to minimise its weaknesses

[Jackelope King]

my own all comers list fields two t-fires and i find them very effective.. moreso against MEQ than hordes tbh.

 

i often laugh when people tell me they arent effective, only a bad workman blames his tolls.

the damage output of the t-fire is more than worth its inclusion.. its down to the player to minimise its weaknesses

You can only do so much with the artillery rules in 5th Edition. A vehicle without the benefits of the vehicle damage chart will need a lot to really shine, and the Thunderfire's damage output, while nice, just doesn't overcome its crippling durability problems. A Predator takes Las-Cannon fire to the face all day and laughs, while a Thunderfire whimpers when a squad with bolters draws down on it.

 

If they could fix the Artillery rules so that the Thunderfire wouldn't die the moment a bird pooped on it, then I'd be a little more forgiving (I still take issue with its mobility problems, and would probably prefer the Dakka Predator, but that's all one big hypothetical).

[glsn]

I have used both thunderfire cannnons and whirlwinds. I have horror stories from both sides, where the whirlwind/thuderfire cannon died first turn, and where they were awesome and gave me victory. Note I only ever used one each and not both at the same time. My current attitude is if I have a spare hundred points in a list, I'll put in the thunderfire cannon (I also plan on buying a bunch of whirlwinds and converting them so I can use them as Razorbacks or Whirlwinds).

 

The thing is they have the same job and I find the thunderfire cannon does it better. Pop a vehicle and pound the guys falling out. I was playing against marines and a guy formed a Rhino wall. I fired all my anti-tank only exploding one of three rhinos, but stunned/imobilized the others and the vindicator. I fired my thunderfire cannon into the squad in the crater and popped the rhino next to them with a stray thunderfire cannon round. Can't do that with a whirlwind.