The Gift of Chaos

[irongryphon]

Hello my brothers of bloodshed. I was working on building up my first army when an interesting idea came upon me. I was planning on giving one of my HQs the gift of chaos ability.

 

Now hear me out, my plan as it stands now is to give it to my daemon prince who will be engaged in close combat for most of the battle anyways. This works out as it can only be used on a target that is within 6" and can be used in close combat. From there it's the d6 above the targets toughness, which is more often then not a 30% to 50% chance of instant death to that target with no saves. After that, it gets even better! From what I can tell, the destroyed enemy then turns into a free chaos spawn under my control (the rules don't say anything about the spawn having to be in reserves or even purchased). So in the end, I have a good chance of one hitting enemies then turning them into my own units for free.

 

Now, keep in mind I am really new to the game and might be missing something in my own naivety, so some feedback would be appreciated before I go out and buy a bunch of chaos spawn models.

 

For the glory of chaos!

[Legatus]

It is definitely fun, especially if you maange to transform an important enemy model such as a sergeant or even a HQ. And yes, the Spawn appears directly in the place where the enemy model used to be, no reserve or deep strike. But in parctice it is not that easy. You have to pass a psychic test, which is not allways easy against Marines or Eldar, and after that you have to roll over the target's toughness, which in most cases (when fighting other Marines) is 4. So in a standard game you will get to maybe transform one enemy model per game. More only if you are lucky.

You should be careful in killpoint games, as then the enemy will get extra killpoints for killing the spawn. But transforming an enemy HQ is just priceless.

[Hellios]

It is very hit or miss... but allways a laugh... Sometimes it has saved my butt... like when I turned the Nightbringer into a spawn... at other times I've done nothing... The most spawn I've ever produced in one game was 7.... at 2,000... maybe 3,000pts against Imperial guard and I teleported my sorcerer lord right next to the guard command squad... 70 shots later my lord was still standing... next turn he spawns the guard commander... next two turns he spawn a commissar each turn... he then spawns the sgts of two squads near by to keep them tied up... elsewhere in the world my aspiring sorcerers have created 2 more... but they needed to use force weapons to kill Ogryns so that kept them busy <_<

[the jeske]

it is the worse psychic power in our dex and one of the worse in the game . the fact that it has 6" range and that you have to cast if before moving , means that the only way to cast it against anything is for your opponent to somehow put a unit within 6" and not moving it for a turn and you not wanting to charge it .

[Skirax]

Magnus turned my Russ into a Spawn :P

 

But yes, this is a very popular Power.

[Brother Nihm]

But yes, this is a very popular Power.

Outside of Tournaments.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

you not wanting to charge it .

I was under the impression it could be used IN close combat.

 

But yeah, I wouldn't go out and buy a load of Spawn. Maybe buy one or two for a laugh, but don't waste money that could be spent on CSM's or Obliterators.

[irongryphon]

the fact that it has 6" range and that you have to cast if before moving , means that the only way to cast it against anything is for your opponent to somehow put a unit within 6" and not moving it for a turn and you not wanting to charge it .

 

But that's only if you don't want that unit engaged in close combat. The power can be used while in close combat and 6" is definitely close enough for anyone is base to base contact. So unless you wipe out the enemy on the first turn of the assault, you'll still be able to cast it next turn.

 

Regardless, thank you all for the feedback. :blink:

[the jeske]

ok so lets you charge in with your DP and stay in hth for one turn . dont break your opponent and dont lose , then you change the fist guy or HQ attached[again squad + HQ should more then hurt a DP] and then you can hope gifts maybe works . And if you charge in with a DP and a squad and the opposing squad is still not broken , well then tehre is a good chance that going within 6" and/or charging is not a very good idea.

 

I was under the impression it could be used IN close combat.

but a DP should either support a unit or tar pit stuff , in once case [should happen more offten] you kill the opposing unit too fast and in the other making a spawn means it will die and the chance that the DP will get wounded/killed through being fearless becomes bigger.

 

Or are we talking here about a sorc ? because a sorc charges in gets to eat a fist and doesnt use the gift at all. even breath would be better then. [what in no case means a sorc with breath is a good choice of a unit].

 

 

Outside of Tournaments.

realy you guys see them spamed in non tournament armies ?

[Brother Nihm]

Outside of Tournaments.

realy you guys see them spamed in non tournament armies ?

Not spammed, but it happens that there's quite a lot of GoC'ing going on in friendly games. It IS a fun power, albeit not an effective one.

[the jeske]

but doesnt fun [no matter how we see it] have to actualy happen . gifts as a power is impossible to use , unless the opponents [for god knows what reasons] decides to help us with turning his chara in to a spawn . It is like having an Xbox that only works , if your hous gets hit by lightning .

[Legatus]

I have turned models into spawn*, and I have had models of my own turned into spawn. I have turned enemy Sorcerers into spawn (in one game Ahriman, actually), and I have had my own Chaos sorcerer turned into spawn. It happens. And it is fun.

 

Actually, since I do not have a spawn model I merely removed the enemy models.

[the jeske]

and I falied 13 +2 terminator saves in one turn [which included a libby lord inside] from a unit of 20 grots . But that doesnt mean it realisticly happens. To use gifts an opponent has to help , even if he moves 1" away from the 6"[and we dont have options to pin units] he is out of range and the power will not work , that is without the psychic test rolls , hoods/runes/staffs etc. But yeah If to opponents find turning something in to a spawn fun , why not . But what kind of a game is it , where you let your opponent kill some of your dudes , just that he has fun .

[Captain Malachi]

I assaulted a souped up unit of chaos termies with a five man scout squad once just because I thought it would be funny. Sometimes losing spectacularly is fun, strange I know, but it is.

[Legatus]

and I falied 13 +2 terminator saves in one turn [which included a libby lord inside] from a unit of 20 grots . But that doesnt mean it realisticly happens. To use gifts an opponent has to help , even if he moves 1" away from the 6"[and we dont have options to pin units] he is out of range and the power will not work , that is without the psychic test rolls , hoods/runes/staffs etc.

Somehow my sorcerer allways ends up in HtH, where there are usually enough juiciy targets for Gift of Chaos around. And being a sorcerer, accompanied by regular Chaos Marines, a combat, especially against other Marines, does not end in one or two phases. Maybe I am using him wrong.

[Cosmic Archmage]

but doesnt fun [no matter how we see it] have to actualy happen . gifts as a power is impossible to use , unless the opponents [for god knows what reasons] decides to help us with turning his chara in to a spawn . It is like having an Xbox that only works , if your hous gets hit by lightning .

 

It is almost impossible to use when you have it on your HQs, due the the nature of the enemy being always able to target them in CC. On aspiring sorcerers, the opportunity to use it is pretty decent. If the enemy doesn't engage you in close combat, you get to rain AP3 bolter fire upon him, if he does, chances are your asp. sorcerer will survive and get to use it 2 times on your next turn, so it's a win/win situation in any case.

 

The times i've used it, it was quite effective against guard, and I was successful in spawning big bad HQs, wich is mostly done when I use Ahriman (using GoC 3 times is actually a pretty enjoyable trick he's got).

 

Anyway, I stand by the idea that it is indeed a fun power, wich can be real useful when you use it against things like gunline guard, but you are better off with Warptime in almost any situation when you want to be competitive.

[GeoWolf]

I like to use GoC against blood angels. With them trying to cram themselves down your throat you get plenty if shots at using it. I have managed to use gift to turn Dante, a sang priest, a dc pf and a sang guard in one game. Granted, it took two aspiring sorcerers and two hq sorcerers to get that much off. Two squads of tin cans can put a decent hurt on the emo vamps, but I went into the game for humiliation.

 

I will agree, it isn't the greatest power, but if you aren't attempting apparent game domination its fun.

[Cosmic Archmage]

Small annecdote : just yesterday in a 3000 points game against an even mix of Blood Angels and Necrons (Team Matt Ward is cool :unsure: ), I had fielded Ahriman and 3 of my Thousand Sons squad with Gift of Chaos. The Spawning was pretty sweet indeed : both Sanguinor and a Destroyer lord got spawned, with a few other models. Even though the game was kill points, I agreed to put down the spawns for those 2 HQs, just for the humiliation factor. Just wanted to share that.

[saintevil]

This is a tad off topic, but isn't the main objective of WH40K to have fun? I don't know. Maybe we do things much differently here in South Africa, but we tend to get lists that people thought might be fun to play! In tournaments!!!! For feth's sake, I allow my friend to throw my Rhinos with his carnifexes! I allowed Commander Farsight to reroll his attacks against my Khorne Berzerkers in Nationals! We play this game to have fun! To play competitive doesn't mean you have to be a sour prick! I am sure you competitive guys have a back up plan if something goes wrong, why not allow something to go wrong, just to see how you mnight cope?

 

So go ahead! Give GoC to your DP! If it doesn't work, so what? Have fun, get annihilated, laugh about it and have a rematch!

 

Maybe the air is different here and I'm permanently stoned, but this is just my 2 cents. So go ahead and be morbid about the things I've said and tell me how stupid I am. Jeske, I know your pretty upset about the new dex, Feth knbows I was as well, but that doesn't mean you have to put down every new guy that tries something. Rather encourage and give constructive advice like Brother Nihm.

 

Ok. I'm ready for the fire squad. Shoot when ready! I die for what I believe!

[Shas'o R'Vre]

For feth's sake, I allow my friend to throw my Rhinos with his carnifexes! I allowed Commander Farsight to reroll his attacks against my Khorne Berzerkers in Nationals! We play this game to have fun! To play competitive doesn't mean you have to be a sour prick! I am sure you competitive guys have a back up plan if something goes wrong, why not allow something to go wrong, just to see how you mnight cope?

 

So go ahead! Give GoC to your DP! If it doesn't work, so what? Have fun, get annihilated, laugh about it and have a rematch!

Your point is valid, but there is a counter-argument. Whilst having close and entertaining games is fun, getting destroyed in games is not, and neither is losing in competitive environments. Therefore, advice given is not based on the "novelty" aspects, but rather creates lists that are fun to play, whilst staying competitive and allowing room for spontaneous decisions and rule-bending.

[BDS]

For feth's sake, I allow my friend to throw my Rhinos with his carnifexes! I allowed Commander Farsight to reroll his attacks against my Khorne Berzerkers in Nationals! We play this game to have fun! To play competitive doesn't mean you have to be a sour prick! I am sure you competitive guys have a back up plan if something goes wrong, why not allow something to go wrong, just to see how you mnight cope?

 

So go ahead! Give GoC to your DP! If it doesn't work, so what? Have fun, get annihilated, laugh about it and have a rematch!

Your point is valid, but there is a counter-argument. Whilst having close and entertaining games is fun, getting destroyed in games is not, and neither is losing in competitive environments. Therefore, advice given is not based on the "novelty" aspects, but rather creates lists that are fun to play, whilst staying competitive and allowing room for spontaneous decisions and rule-bending.

 

This is a very common sentiment when posting army lists and ideas and can easily get negative. On the other hand, it can resolved by adding to the posting instructions to include in the original topic whether the idea is meant for a "fun" or a "competitive" list/game.

 

Then it just falls to the readers/posters to keep comments on topic.

 

In this case, both groups are spot on...it is fun in fun games, and it is not competitive for competitive games.

 

Jus 2 teef'

 

BDS

[God Of War]

Use Warptime in any sort of competitive game.Gift of Chaos is extremely fun with friends, though.

Ex:I used Warptime in a small competition and my Daemon Prince ripped Marneus Calgar apart.

I used Gift of Chaos in a friendly game and turned Shrike into a gibbering spawn that eviscerated a Techmarine.(Not a standard experience, and the Techie was down to one wound and had no servo-harness.

[Vorion]

"Fun" is what we make of it, so its up to the player. If someone wants to get badly beaten it's their choice. If they want to play only to win and only enjoy the game if they are bashing opponents that is also their choice.

 

Is GoC potentially amazing? On paper yes.

 

Is it practical? In game no.

 

Try it out and see how you like it

[the jeske]

ok . how is it potantionaly amazing on paper ?

I mean it is not like lash , which looks like the awesome but then you get hit byt the 5th ed psyker meta and mecha armies everywhere comined with lack of support units for chaos [which means sometimes we strugle with opening those transports] , and it does not work in real games.

 

gifts on papers looks like this. I have to cast it at a unit that I tar pited in hth and didnt kill it [with the whole , didnt kill it with a DP or sorc+ unit and we didnt get killed back, we both didnt break ,anti psyker stuff didnt work] , other ways of casting is are impossible unless somehow my opponent helps me with it [by moving in to 6" range of my HQ and staying there without moving for a whole turn ] . I would realy lilke to know where the "amazing on paper part is " ?

[Papewaio]

DISCLAIMER: I tend to lurk rather than post so please feel fre to completely disregard the following.

 

@the jeske: The 'amazing on paper' part comes from when you realise that you can turn a powerful opposing model into something under your control, with no saves. I do understand where you're coming from, but the majority of games that people play (at least in my area) are friendly. The idea of friendly games are to try things out and have fun. I get the general feeling from irongryphon's posts that he is going to primarily play friendly games.

I'm not saying your advice isn't valid, actually I agree that it is one of the worst psychic powers out there, but replying in blunt fashion as you do gives the impression of someone just saying a flat 'no'. Being polite might reduce the amount of negative feedback to your posts.

 

@irongryphon: Try it out once or twice, because the feeling when you turn Logan Grimnar into a Spawn is amazing. But that's not very likely to happen immediately. Listen to the jeske when you want to start playing competitively.