The Avenging Lions

[Ioldanach]

Version 2.1 here.

Version 3.0 here.

Version 4.0 here.

Instead of using the Index Astartes format that most people use, I've decided to use the format that is presented in The Badab War - Part One. This is a first draft, with a few noticeable holes (flavor text, the selected battle honors, etc.). I'm considering changing the sequencing a bit. I have two special characters. One is a new character I've developed while the other is just an adaptation of the Emperor's Champion from the Black Templars codex (minus vows). If anyone wants to discuss either or both of these characters, I can create a topic in the homegrown rules section. I've deliberately kept the characters low-key.

THE AVENGING LIONS

CHAPTER NAME: .............. THE AVENGING LIONS

FOUNDING: .................. 22_ND [M.36]

CHAPTER WORLD: ............. ALIUM/CRUSADING CHAPTER

FORTRESS MONASTERY: ........ THE BATTLE BARGE JUSTICE BRINGER

GENE-SEED (PREDECESSOR): ... BLACK TEMPLARS

KNOWN DESCENDANTS: ......... NONE

{quote in development}

Chapter Tactics

If you include an Avenging Lions character then all units in your army exchange the combat tactics special rule for the Stubborn universal special rule. If more than one character in your army has the Chapter Tactics special rule, you must choose which version will apply.

A

A crusading Chapter in the proud tradition of the Primarch Rogal Dorn, the Avenging Lions were created in the years following the Wars of Apostasy. The Avenging Lions were one of several Chapters that from the outset was intended to spend its existence on continuous crusade. The Chapter has dutifully pursued that goal since its creation, earning honors and renown for their achievements in battles across the galaxy.

For their service to the Imperium in taking part in the siege of the Ecclessiarchal Palace that eventually saw the downfall of Goge Vandire, the Black Templars were honored by having their gene-seed selected for the creation of a new Chapter. The Adeptus Mechanicus screened the gene-seed stores submitted by the Black Templars, selecting the most pure samples for use. However, High Marshal Sigenandus surprised the High Lords of Terra by flatly refusing to provide battle-brothers to help train the new Chapter, declaring that it was the sacred duty of the Black Templars to further prosecute the enemies of the Emperor and leading his Chapter on its interminable crusade. Chapter Master Lazerian of the Imperial Fists offered to provide a cadre to train the fledgling Chapter. Another Successor of the Imperial Fists Legion and Rogal Dorn, the Imperial Fists had also taken part in the siege of the Ecclessiarchal Palace. The Imperial Fists and Black Templars had enjoyed strong bonds of brotherhood dating back to the 2nd Founding when both Chapters were first created from the 7th Legion, and Lazerian understood the motivations of the Black Templars. His offer was an effort to ensure that the traditions of the Legion were retained in the new Successor. The High Lords accepted Chapter Master Lazerian

Edited December 22, 2011 by Brule the Spear-Slayer
Removed stuff taken from Codex Black Templars. -Brother Tyler

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

You might want to put the rules here. As the Emperor's Champion rules are GW copyright, they shouldn't be posted. Edited November 21, 2010 by Chapter Master Ignis Domus

[NightrawenII]

You might want to put the rules here. As the Emperor's Champion rules are GW copyright, they shouldn't be posted.

+1, as I said in another thread, Liber is forum for background development.

 

Guh! Another Black Templars successor. It looks like the contamination is spreading among the DIYers. :ph34r:

 

Justice Bringer sounds odd. Bringer of Justice is better.

 

Overall:

This IA lacks some character or trait, which would distinguish them from the crowd. To be honest, the Imperial Armour format is more suited for dry summary, than for exciting article every IA aspire to be.

[Ioldanach]

You might want to put the rules here.

You might want to put the rules here. As the Emperor's Champion rules are GW copyright, they shouldn't be posted.

+1, as I said in another thread, Liber is forum for background development.

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse everyone. I had the rules and special characters included because they're part of the full article I'm creating. What I meant to focus on was the background. Does it flow well? Are there inconsistencies? Does it work with the established canon? Stuff like that. Please ignore the rules and characters (and if it's still confusing, I can always edit them out).

 

As the Emperor's Champion rules are GW copyright, they shouldn't be posted.

Good point. It looks like someone took care of that for me already. Note that I did make a few changes to him, but these took away from the Black Templars version (so mine costs the same and is less powerful).

 

Guh! Another Black Templars successor. It looks like the contamination is spreading among the DIYers. :)

Ah yes, I've seen the nonsense about the Black Templars that is pushed upon people in this section. Let's get this out of the way early. The notion that the Black Templars don't train or father new Chapters is an opinion that is not supported by the canon material. GW has never even implied that the Black Templars don't have successors. I agree with the basic points that have been pointed out, but those merely provide us with challenges to be overcome. Part of my objective was to demonstrate how those challenges might plausibly be overcome. If I have failed in that area, please point out where you perceive the failure and how you think I might do a better job. But please dispense with the narrow-minded knee jerk reactions about the Black Templars and whether they do or do not have successors. This Chapter is a successor of the Black Templars. If you don't like it and can't bring yourself to be objective about it, please ignore it and focus on the rest of the article.

 

But why get angry about it (as evidenced by the emoticon)? It's too subjective a thing to get emotionally involved in.

 

Justice Bringer sounds odd. Bringer of Justice is better.

Why does it sound odd? I'm not opposed to your idea, but the original doesn't sound odd to me. I'm not opposed to making the change, but I don't see a need unless it's really necessary. For those that didn't catch it, the "Justice Bringer" name came from Michael Moorcock's works - it was the epithet of Donblas, the leader of the Gods of Law. That doesn't really matter here - I just figured I'd point it out for those that might have found it familiar.

 

Overall:

This IA lacks some character or trait, which would distinguish them from the crowd. To be honest, the Imperial Armour format is more suited for dry summary, than for exciting article every IA aspire to be.

To be honest, part of my goal here was to present a Chapter that is "average". Every Chapter is heroic and unique, so trying to describe how heroic my Chapter is seems to be superfluous and a waste of time. Of course they're heroes - they're Space Marines. So I figured that uniqueness would be provided for in the little things. In that, I've composited a few things from the Imperial Fists and the Black Templars and have added a few small bits. I didn't want to take everything from one/both of the major Chapters, so I took some small things that seemed plausible, and added to them in small ways. I want to avoid going overboard, though. I truly don't aim to be "exciting" with the article. Rather, I want to present basic facts about a typical Chapter of Space Marines. I might need to add a few small things here and there, but developing a Chapter that is "exciting" the way (I think) you mean is the opposite of what I want to do. It's just your average everyday Chapter of Space Marines - unique in a few small areas, but otherwise similar to every other Chapter (which is how most Chapters should be, in my opinion).

 

The choice of the Imperial Armour format was deliberate, and though I disagree with the word "dry", the "summary" is exactly what I was going for. I think that too many players try to go into too much detail with the IA articles that aspire to be "exciting", painting themselves into corners by providing unnecessary details. I found the Imperial Armour articles to provide an amount of detail that was exciting enough to inspire players to collect those Chapters, as evidenced in a discussion in the Index Astartes section. The Chapters in that book varied in the amount of "personality" they had, with some being bog-standard boring, others being clearly distinctive, and most being somewhere in between. I wanted something in between, but closer to the bog-standard boring side (without quite being boring).

 

So I don't mind sprucing it up a bit, but I don't want to go overboard.

 

My intent was to provide some interesting tidbits in the Selected Honors. I also had a notion about expanding upon the combat blades issue (without going too far). I forgot to follow that thread, though, so I'll work on it.

 

Just in case anyone misinterprets the tone of my response, I do appreciate the input given so far. :D

[NightrawenII]

Guh! Another Black Templars successor. It looks like the contamination is spreading among the DIYers. <_<

Ah yes, I've seen the nonsense about the Black Templars that is pushed upon people in this section. Let's get this out of the way early. The notion that the Black Templars don't train or father new Chapters is an opinion that is not supported by the canon material. GW has never even implied that the Black Templars don't have successors.

Aaah, the 'ole Lack of Evidence is not Evidence of Lack. ^_^

Actually, there is indirect notion in the GW's material. one of the reasons the Ultramarines sired 2/3 of Chapters, is because of their strict adherence to the Codex.

 

I agree with the basic points that have been pointed out, but those merely provide us with challenges to be overcome. Part of my objective was to demonstrate how those challenges might plausibly be overcome. If I have failed in that area, please point out where you perceive the failure and how you think I might do a better job.

Well, you failed.

You didn't give any plausible reason, why would HLoT let the Templars father, train and teach new Chapter.

 

But why get angry about it (as evidenced by the emoticon)? It's too subjective a thing to get emotionally involved in.

Because people keep poking the sleeping dragon, regardless on the warning-table, "Don't poke the sleeping dragon". :o

 

Why does it sound odd? I'm not opposed to your idea, but the original doesn't sound odd to me. I'm not opposed to making the change, but I don't see a need unless it's really necessary. For those that didn't catch it, the "Justice Bringer" name came from Michael Moorcock's works - it was the epithet of Donblas, the leader of the Gods of Law. That doesn't really matter here - I just figured I'd point it out for those that might have found it familiar.

The composition of words. This a personal opinion, though. Feel free to ignore it.

 

Every Chapter is heroic and unique, so trying to describe how heroic my Chapter is seems to be superfluous and a waste of time. Of course they're heroes - they're Space Marines. So I figured that uniqueness would be provided for in the little things.

We know they kick ass. They're Space Marines. So tell us about their bubblegum.

~Octavulg

 

This is what one wise man said. :lol: And I agree with that whole-heartily. The purpose of IA isn't (and never was, mind you) telling us how they kick ass, but WHAT gum they are chewing.

Do you catch my drift?

 

In that, I've composited a few things from the Imperial Fists and the Black Templars and have added a few small bits. I didn't want to take everything from one/both of the major Chapters, so I took some small things that seemed plausible, and added to them in small ways. I want to avoid going overboard, though. I truly don't aim to be "exciting" with the article. Rather, I want to present basic facts about a typical Chapter of Space Marines. I might need to add a few small things here and there, but developing a Chapter that is "exciting" the way (I think) you mean is the opposite of what I want to do. It's just your average everyday Chapter of Space Marines - unique in a few small areas, but otherwise similar to every other Chapter (which is how most Chapters should be, in my opinion).

(~)

The Chapters in that book varied in the amount of "personality" they had, with some being bog-standard boring, others being clearly distinctive, and most being somewhere in between. I wanted something in between, but closer to the bog-standard boring side (without quite being boring).

Yeah, but there is really nothing, which would set your Marines apart of these two. Your Chapter simply doesn't have much personality. In fact, you missed (or can I say avoided?) two opportunities, which would give them some extra flavour: Beliefs and Homeworld.

 

+++++

To be honest, part of my goal here was to present a Chapter that is "average". (~) I truly don't aim to be "exciting" with the article. Rather, I want to present basic facts about a typical Chapter of Space Marines. (~) It's just your average everyday Chapter of Space Marines - unique in a few small areas, but otherwise similar to every other Chapter (which is how most Chapters should be, in my opinion). (~) I wanted something in between, but closer to the bog-standard boring side (without quite being boring).

To be honest, this is self-defeating argument. Once again quoting someone else:

The purpose of an Index Astartes is to draw interest and make us care about your creation (or your version of someone else's), not to just throw out a list of boring facts and then walk away. If you're not aiming to engage the reader then what's your purpose in even creating the writeup? Are you not trying to create something that people would want to read? If so, then someone who tells you what makes them not care about the words on the page is probably more worth listening to than those who would cheer your efforts so far. Conversely, if you're just doing this to please yourself, why even post to the Liber?

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I would highly recommend the Guide to DIYing and Octavulg's Octaguide 2.0.

[Ioldanach]

I would highly recommend the Guide to DIYing and Octavulg's Octaguide 2.0.

I've read both, thank you, and I take each for what they're worth - nothing more than guidance based on the opinions of members. Each has good points, but neither is the end-all or be-all of Chapter creation. Likewise, despite my relatively recent join date, I've been around here for far longer and have also read a number of articles that preceded the two in question. Every article has had some things that I agree with and some things that I disagree with.

 

And one thing I don't aim to do here is to conform to some arbitrary format that doesn't do what I want. While the IA format is very good, I've chosen to go with another format.

 

Aaah, the 'ole Lack of Evidence is not Evidence of Lack. :P

Actually, there is indirect notion in the GW's material. one of the reasons the Ultramarines sired 2/3 of Chapters, is because of their strict adherence to the Codex.

Actually, the "Lack of Evidence" is equally applicable to the notion that the Black Templars don't have successors. Yes, the Ultramarines may have sired 2/3 of the various Chapters, but that means that the other 1/3 have come from other Legions. As the official material provides, successors are just as capable of siring successors as the 2nd Founding Chapters. We already know that the Imperial Fists have fathered successors in the Iron Knights and Executioners, so there is ample evidence that the Imperial Fists Legion (including the various successors) can provide the basis for a Chapter.

 

Well, you failed.

You didn't give any plausible reason, why would HLoT let the Templars father, train and teach new Chapter.

Really? If you don't think that the Age of Apostasy provided a solid basis upon which to honor the Black Templars with the opportunity to sire a successor then you either don't understand the magnitude of the contribution the Chapter made to the Imperium or you have unrealistically high standards for what it would take to give the HLoT a reason to trust the Black Templars (if only for a short while). And we don't even know that the HLoT don't trust the Black Templars - all we have is some byzantine information that fits with all of the other conflicting information that exists within the Imperium (and if you don't know what I mean, consider for a moment that Marneus Calgar was once brought under suspicion within the Imperium). Trust is not a word that is thrown around lightly within the Imperium, even between those who might consider themselves allies.

 

So I think that the Age of Apostasy provides us with a solid foundation upon which to craft a Black Templars successor. There might be ways in which I can better explain this, so feel free to provide input to improve my explanation if it doesn't work well enough for you.

 

Because people keep poking the sleeping dragon, regardless on the warning-table, "Don't poke the sleeping dragon". :o

Ah, but that "sleeping dragon" is completely arbitrary and unfounded in my opinion. ;)

 

We know they kick ass. They're Space Marines. So tell us about their bubblegum.

~Octavulg

 

This is what one wise man said. <_< And I agree with that whole-heartily. The purpose of IA isn't (and never was, mind you) telling us how they kick ass, but WHAT gum they are chewing.

Do you catch my drift?

Well, that is what I was getting at when I mentioned that there were some noticeable holes. I definitely want to avoid the hyperbole that is evident in most other articles/Chapters, however. I think that much of what you perceive as being missing would probably be captured in the selected battle honors, though I'm sure I could spruce things up a bit in the main part of the article that is presently there.

 

Yeah, but there is really nothing, which would set your Marines apart of these two. Your Chapter simply doesn't have much personality. In fact, you missed (or can I say avoided?) two opportunities, which would give them some extra flavour: Beliefs and Homeworld.

Yes, the element of beliefs would be captured under the Chapter Organization bit. I'm not following the IA format, though, so don't expect that amount of detail. Also, a Chapter that recruits from four worlds and which considers its battle barge as its headquarters likely wouldn't derive a lot from a "homeworld". ;) That was a deliberate ommission and will remain unless I decide to focus the Chapter more tightly upon one specific world.

 

+++++

To be honest, part of my goal here was to present a Chapter that is "average". (~) I truly don't aim to be "exciting" with the article. Rather, I want to present basic facts about a typical Chapter of Space Marines. (~) It's just your average everyday Chapter of Space Marines - unique in a few small areas, but otherwise similar to every other Chapter (which is how most Chapters should be, in my opinion). (~) I wanted something in between, but closer to the bog-standard boring side (without quite being boring).

To be honest, this is self-defeating argument. Once again quoting someone else:

The purpose of an Index Astartes is to draw interest and make us care about your creation (or your version of someone else's), not to just throw out a list of boring facts and then walk away. If you're not aiming to engage the reader then what's your purpose in even creating the writeup? Are you not trying to create something that people would want to read? If so, then someone who tells you what makes them not care about the words on the page is probably more worth listening to than those who would cheer your efforts so far. Conversely, if you're just doing this to please yourself, why even post to the Liber?

The purpose is to provide readers with information on the Chapter. I am deliberately avoiding going into too much detail because I've seen too many IAs fail on account of trying to put too much information in - the results being overly stylized Chapters that lack "realism". I'm going for "realism". I could definitely add some things here and there to improve the article, but I don't want to create a caricature of a Space Marine Chapter. My intent also includes providing other players with the background information on the Chapter I've selected to collect and use on the tabletop. I don't need it to be super sexy.

 

I'm definitely willing to work with others on this, but keep in mind that this is my article about my Chapter. I've selected certain things such as the basic format and certain information that I want in. I'm willing to budge on a few things (just not the ones that have been mentioned so far) and am willing to add things. Believe me, your input has been heard and considered. While I haven't updated the article yet, I'm considering some things to add in order to better explain the character of the Chapter and how it is different from other Chapters (only as much as is necessary, though - I'm not in this to make the Chapter different for the sake of being different).

 

Also, may aim is not necessarily to conform - going along with the herd has never been my style. ;)

[Shinzaren]

The goal of an IA is to fit inside the shared universe. Shared being the operative word. We all want to look at each other's IAs and say, "Yeah, I can see them in my universe." The guides are there to help people fit in that shared universe. While it is true that they are not the be all, end all, of IA creation; they are quite useful and should not be ignored.

 

Your justifications for the Black Templars getting a successor are okay, but hardly bulletproof. The Imperial Fists were also present at the second Siege of Terra, and given their near flawless service, adherence to Codex, and standing as a first founding chapter, it is much more likely that they (Or one of their less independent successors) would be granted the honor of fathering and training a new chapter. You alluded to this, by having them form the training cadre, so why not just make them IF successors? What do you gain for being BT gene-seed and IF trained? All it nets you is a headache, as people have and will continue to point out that the generally accepted rule is not to use BT gene-seed.

 

You also need to consider that the High Lords of Terra are just men, and might be suspicious at how quickly the Black Templars turned on the Imperium as a whole, even though they would later be proven justified. At the time however, they were going against the established hierarchy. The HLoT might see this as a troubling sign, even though it ended up being a good thing. They don't like things that go against the grain, and that flaunt their independence too openly.

 

That said, I haven't reviewed the IA proper yet, as it contains rules, special characters, etc etc; all of which are outside my area. I will try to devote some time to it later today or this evening and give it a more thorough read critique.

[NightrawenII]

Actually, the "Lack of Evidence" is equally applicable to the notion that the Black Templars don't have successors. Yes, the Ultramarines may have sired 2/3 of the various Chapters, but that means that the other 1/3 have come from other Legions. As the official material provides, successors are just as capable of siring successors as the 2nd Founding Chapters. We already know that the Imperial Fists have fathered successors in the Iron Knights and Executioners, so there is ample evidence that the Imperial Fists Legion (including the various successors) can provide the basis for a Chapter.

You are missing the point of my post.

There is 600+ successors of Ultramarines, because they are codex-adherent.

There is zero (known) successors of Black Templar or Space Wolves. And one of these reasons is their head-strong, wild and non-codex nature.

 

Really? If you don't think that the Age of Apostasy provided a solid basis upon which to honor the Black Templars with the opportunity to sire a successor then you either don't understand the magnitude of the contribution the Chapter made to the Imperium or you have unrealistically high standards for what it would take to give the HLoT a reason to trust the Black Templars (if only for a short while). And we don't even know that the HLoT don't trust the Black Templars - all we have is some byzantine information that fits with all of the other conflicting information that exists within the Imperium (and if you don't know what I mean, consider for a moment that Marneus Calgar was once brought under suspicion within the Imperium). Trust is not a word that is thrown around lightly within the Imperium, even between those who might consider themselves allies.

 

So I think that the Age of Apostasy provides us with a solid foundation upon which to craft a Black Templars successor. There might be ways in which I can better explain this, so feel free to provide input to improve my explanation if it doesn't work well enough for you.

No, the issue here is not about trust. It's about the problematic nature of Templars.

If the Templas ever have sired successor, it'll end up with the same problematic nature. And that's not, what HLoT wants.

 

Because people keep poking the sleeping dragon, regardless on the warning-table, "Don't poke the sleeping dragon". :)

Ah, but that "sleeping dragon" is completely arbitrary and unfounded in my opinion. :D

Well, in your opinion maybe. :D

 

The purpose is to provide readers with information on the Chapter. I am deliberately avoiding going into too much detail because I've seen too many IAs fail on account of trying to put too much information in - the results being overly stylized Chapters that lack "realism". I'm going for "realism". I could definitely add some things here and there to improve the article, but I don't want to create a caricature of a Space Marine Chapter. My intent also includes providing other players with the background information on the Chapter I've selected to collect and use on the tabletop. I don't need it to be super sexy.

The purpose of an Index Astartes is to draw interest and make us care about your creation.

Righ now, you have provided basic informations, which aren't enough to warrant our attention.

 

While I haven't updated the article yet, I'm considering some things to add in order to better explain the character of the Chapter and how it is different from other Chapters (only as much as is necessary, though - I'm not in this to make the Chapter different for the sake of being different).

Good.

 

I'm going for "realism".

Ok, this makes me laugh, if you want realism, then you are in the wrong game. :blink:

 

++++++

Also, may aim is not necessarily to conform - going along with the herd has never been my style.

Do you realize what is SOOOOO wrong with this sentence?

[Ioldanach]

You are missing the point of my post.

There is 600+ successors of Ultramarines, because they are codex-adherent.

There is zero (known) successors of Black Templar or Space Wolves. And one of these reasons is their head-strong, wild and non-codex nature.

And two of the known successors of the Imperial Fists Legion are codex-adherent (the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists). However, we have solid evidence that successors have been created from other Chapters, including Chapters that the HLoT might consider even less trustworthy than the Black Templars (the Blood Angels and Dark Angels codexes give us this information). Also, where does it say that the HLoT don't trust the Black Templars?

 

No, the issue here is not about trust. It's about the problematic nature of Templars.

If the Templas ever have sired successor, it'll end up with the same problematic nature. And that's not, what HLoT wants.

Provide quotes from official sources backing up your last two sentences, please.

 

The purpose of an Index Astartes is to draw interest and make us care about your creation.

Righ now, you have provided basic informations, which aren't enough to warrant our attention.

Fair enough, but I won't be filling my article with the amount of nonsense I see in most other articles.

 

Ok, this makes me laugh, if you want realism, then you are in the wrong game. :lol:

Hence the quote marks around the words "realism" in my post. <_<

 

Also, may aim is not necessarily to conform - going along with the herd has never been my style.

Do you realize what is SOOOOO wrong with this sentence?

Feel free to enlighten me at any time, oh great zen master. :no:

[NightrawenII]

And two of the known successors of the Imperial Fists Legion are codex-adherent (the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists).

Yeah, but Black Templars are non-codex.

 

However, we have solid evidence that successors have been created from other Chapters, including Chapters that the HLoT might consider even less trustworthy than the Black Templars (the Blood Angels and Dark Angels codexes give us this information).

Heh, yeah but:

DA's gene-seed is not used very often, because the HLoT began sniffle something fishy about them, but they are not sure.

BA's gene-seed is avoided after the Curse of Sanguinius became apparent.

 

However, these Chapters are codex-adherent.

 

Also, where does it say that the HLoT don't trust the Black Templars?

(~)

If the Templas ever have sired successor, it'll end up with the same problematic nature. And that's not, what HLoT wants.

Provide quotes from official sources backing up your last two sentences, please.

Both of them are normal logic. Why would a training cadre of Black Templars teach their successor about codex? And HLoT are reluctant to use pure gene-seed of codex-adherent Chapters, because there is a shred of suspicion.

 

Also, may aim is not necessarily to conform - going along with the herd has never been my style.

Do you realize what is SOOOOO wrong with this sentence?

Feel free to enlighten me at any time, oh great zen master. <_<

Path of Enlightenment is filled with heart-searching, oh little grasshopper. :lol:

[Octavulg]

General Note

 

"You are not the [blank] Templars

Many DIYers like to have the Black Templars be their training cadre (and gene-seed source). However, there are a number of both in-universe and out-of-universe problems with this. Why would the High Lords choose the Black Templars? They're headstrong, violate the Codex, and are completely outside Imperial control, even moreso than the usual Astartes independence. The High Lords would not trust them. Nor would they be a good choice for a training cadre, precisely because of their particular quirks – they'd pass them on to the new Chapter, which would provide the High Lords with another problem chapter. Added to this, there's the fact that most people seem to simply take the opportunity to recreate the Black Templars, thus raising the issue of why the exercise was undertaken in the first place. The Black Templars as a Chapter cadre raise far, far more problems than they solve. If you want a crusading Chapter, both the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists were such (the Imperial Fists still are). Both use the Emperor's Champion (indeed, even non-Dornian Chapters have been known to do so). You do not need the Black Templars to have similar influences."

 

Notice something interesting about this paragraph? You all should.

 

It's talking about the training cadre. The BT as a geneseed source are basically not a problem at all.

 

The only problem this article would have in that regard is why the HLoT originally asked the BT in the first place.

 

Comments on the Article-of-As-Yet-Unnamed-Type

 

CHAPTER NAME: .............. THE AVENGING LIONS

FOUNDING: .................. 22ND [M.36]

CHAPTER WORLD: ............. ALIUM/CRUSADING CHAPTER

FORTRESS MONASTERY: ........ THE BATTLE BARGE JUSTICE BRINGER

GENE-SEED (PREDECESSOR): ... BLACK TEMPLARS

KNOWN DESCENDANTS: ......... NONE

 

No need for the note about them being a crusading chapter - if they have a Chapter World, they have one. If they don't, they don't. IIRC several of the Imperial Armour Chapters crusade to greater or lesser extents, but they still just note the world. That, or put it in brackets. The slash just looks ugly, IMO.

 

The gene-seed format would be more appropriately expressed as Imperial Fists [black Templars] (see the Marines Errant).

 

Chapter Tactics

If you include an Avenging Lions character then all units in your army exchange the combat tactics special rule for the Stubborn universal special rule. If more than one character in your army has the Chapter Tactics special rule, you must choose which version will apply.

 

This would work better at the end of the article than at the beginning. It's best to compartmentalize rules and fluff as much as possible to avoid jolting the reader out of the IA/whatever-we're-eventually-going-to-call-this.

 

And since we're currently trying to figure out what to call that in the Librarium, suggestions for what to call this kind of article are appreciated.

 

For their service to the Imperium in taking part in the siege of the Ecclessiarchal Palace that eventually saw the downfall of Goge Vandire, the Black Templars were honored by having their gene-seed selected for the creation of a new Chapter. The Adeptus Mechanicus screened the gene-seed stores submitted by the Black Templars, selecting the most pure samples for use. However, High Marshal Sigenandus surprised the High Lords of Terra by flatly refusing to provide battle-brothers to help train the new Chapter, declaring that it was the sacred duty of the Black Templars to further prosecute the enemies of the Emperor and leading his Chapter on its interminable crusade. Chapter Master Lazerian of the Imperial Fists offered to provide a cadre to train the fledgling Chapter. Another Successor of the Imperial Fists Legion and Rogal Dorn, the Imperial Fists had also taken part in the siege of the Ecclessiarchal Palace. The Imperial Fists and Black Templars had enjoyed strong bonds of brotherhood dating back to the 2nd Founding when both Chapters were first created from the 7th Legion, and Lazerian understood the motivations of the Black Templars. His offer was an effort to ensure that the traditions of the Legion were retained in the new Successor. The High Lords accepted Chapter Master Lazerian’s offer, allowing the Imperial Fists to train the new Chapter. As a result, the Avenging Lions inherited much from the Imperial Fists.

 

While this is perfectly sound, boy does it tie you tight to events which may see further elaboration. GW decides to flesh out the Age of Apostasy even a little and you'll be right back here editing.

 

What Shinzaren says bears some weight - what good do the Black Templars serve here that the Imperial Fists would not, and why would the High Lords choose the BT over the IF, who also were awesome during the AoA?

 

Indeed, why wouldn't the High Lords short circuit any potential trouble the Black Templars might present and explain how the BT were getting the honor of the geneseed, and the IF the honor of training such Chapters.

 

A notable point in the Chapter’s history was the aftermath of the Stethnyrach Crusade in the early years of M37. The Avenging Lions engaged at Chapter strength in the crusade, fighting alongside a crusade of Black Templars, their progenitors. Horgast Bellowflame, a lieutenant of the Blind Apostle, had conquered the Imperial world of Stethnyrach with a mighty force of renegades and daemons. The Black Templars had established a Chapter Keep upon Stethnyrach over two millennia prior and the small number of Black Templars upon that world had put up a valiant defense before being crushed by the overwhelming numbers of the Chaos forces. Responding to the emergency, the Avenging Lions fought in numerous boarding actions against the vessels of the traitors, allowing the Black Templars to assault the surface of Stethnyrach in order to wreak their vengeance upon the servants of the Dark Powers. The crusade was costly for the Avenging Lions, with the Chapter Master dying in the successful defense of the Justice Bringer when Bellowflame’s minions launched a surprise counterattack upon the battle barge. Ultimately, the participation of the Avenging Lions proved a key to the successful prosecution of engendered a blood-debt with the Black Templars, who were able to successfully retrieve valuable gene-seed that had been stored within the fallen Chapter Keep.

 

This seems to fit better as part of the battle history than in here, since it doesn't really tell us anything about the Chapter.

 

Also, a note about the tabards: it comes across as a little ludicrous right now. So they wear tabards. So what? If you lead with them being granted Diomondas & Co's standards, then explained how some other veterans now wear them, that might feel a little more natural. As is, it kinda feels like you're making a big deal over cloth, rather than over what the cloth represents.

 

Also, the sidebar could fit perfectly well in with the rest of the battle.

 

Aside from adherence to the Codex Astartes, the Avenging Lions inherited a number of other aspects of the Imperial Fists. Most readily apparent among these is the Imperial Fist’s defiance in combat and stubborn refusal to give ground. This tenacity has occasionally resulted in heavy losses for the Chapter, but it has repeatedly recovered and continued to crusade in the service of the Imperium. The Avenging Lions have also been heavily influenced by the Imperial Fists in the area of swords. Upon becoming a full battle-brother, every member of the Chapter is granted a combat blade by the Chaplains. This short sword is inscribed with the name of the battle-brother and the battle-brothers of the Chapter are seldom without their combat blade. Additionally, the Avenging Lions have embraced the honor duels of the Imperial Fists and the battle-brothers of the Chapter are distinguished by the facial scars that are the results of these duels.

 

While I don't mind them being quite similar to their predecessors, it would be nice if they had some little thing they did that distinguished them from their fellows.

 

* * *

 

Comments to the Author

 

And one thing I don't aim to do here is to conform to some arbitrary format that doesn't do what I want. While the IA format is very good, I've chosen to go with another format.

 

Nothing wrong with that. Indeed, thank you for being a test case.

 

Ah, but that "sleeping dragon" is completely arbitrary and unfounded in my opinion. msn-wink.gif

 

It's not arbitrary. There are very logical reasons explaining why the High Lords would not think the Black Templars were a good choice to mentor and train a new Chapter. Starting with the fact that they do whatever the hell they want, whenever the hell they want, with fanatical obsession. That's dangerous.

 

My dislike of Blood Angels successors, now that's arbitrary. <_<

 

The purpose is to provide readers with information on the Chapter. I am deliberately avoiding going into too much detail because I've seen too many IAs fail on account of trying to put too much information in - the results being overly stylized Chapters that lack "realism". I'm going for "realism".

 

'Realism' does not prohibit interesting or unique, you know.

 

I'm considering some things to add in order to better explain the character of the Chapter and how it is different from other Chapters (only as much as is necessary, though - I'm not in this to make the Chapter different for the sake of being different).

 

While being different for the sake of being different is bad, you must be at least somewhat different or there's no point in writing it down.

 

I mean, if people ask you what your Chapter is like, at the moment you could save them a lot of time by saying "a lot like the Imperial Fists, actually, but they fight in space more". And it'd be nice if there were more to it than that.

 

Provide quotes from official sources backing up your last two sentences, please.

 

Explain why successors of the Templars, trained by the Templars, wouldn't end up being like the Templars. Seriously.

 

Fair enough, but I won't be filling my article with the amount of nonsense I see in most other articles.

 

I'm getting the distinct impression from several of your comments that you think you're more talented than the general population of the Liber. And while that may or may not be true, the general population is not likely to respond well to that. You've seemed quite dismissive toward what people do here and the opinions of the community at large (as well as my own), and I'm curious whether you genuinely feel that way, and if so, why you're asking for opinions here at all.

 

* * *

 

Nightrawen

 

No, the issue here is not about trust. It's about the problematic nature of Templars.

If the Templas ever have sired successor, it'll end up with the same problematic nature. And that's not, what HLoT wants.

 

True, if the Templars trained them. Which they didn't in this case.

 

The fact that the HL asked them to might be a problem, but he's dealt perfectly well with why they didn't end up exactly like the Templars.

 

The problem with the Templars is them training Chapters, not their geneseed itself.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Octavulg

[NightrawenII]

Nightrawen

 

No, the issue here is not about trust. It's about the problematic nature of Templars.

If the Templas ever have sired successor, it'll end up with the same problematic nature. And that's not, what HLoT wants.

 

True, if the Templars trained them. Which they didn't in this case.

 

The fact that the HL asked them to might be a problem, but he's dealt perfectly well with why they didn't end up exactly like the Templars.

 

The problem with the Templars is them training Chapters, not their geneseed itself.

Well, that was my aim for this whole thread. :cuss

 

I don't see any reason, why would HLoT let Templars father, train and teach new Chapter.

[Ioldanach]

Yeah, but Black Templars are non-codex.

 

...

 

Both of them are normal logic. Why would a training cadre of Black Templars teach their successor about codex? And HLoT are reluctant to use pure gene-seed of codex-adherent Chapters, because there is a shred of suspicion.

All the official background material tells us is that the gene-seed of the Ultramarines is preferred in the creation of Codex Chapters. It doesn't say that the Ultramarines gene-seed is the only gene-seed used in the creation of successors, that the Ultramarines gene-seed is only used in the creation of Codex-adherent successors, or that only the Ultramarines gene-seed is used in the creation of Codex-adherent successors. It just says the Ultramarines gene-seed is preferred. So that leaves open the supported possibility that the gene-seed of other Chapters/Legions might be used in the creation of successors, including Codex-adherent successors.

 

More importantly, who said that the intent behind the Avenging Lions creation was to create a Codex-adherent successor? I certainly never did. :D

 

The intent was to honor the Black Templars for the great service they provided to the Imperium in helping to end Goge Vandire's rule. Whether or not the HLoT mistrust the Black Templars is highly debatable. There might be some within the Imperium that don't trust the Chapter, but if there's any event in the Chapter's history that would allay those suspicions, if only for a time, then the Age of Apostasy is it. Perhaps the Chapter's refusal to train a successor led to further mistrust down the road.

 

No need for the note about them being a crusading chapter - if they have a Chapter World, they have one. If they don't, they don't. IIRC several of the Imperial Armour Chapters crusade to greater or lesser extents, but they still just note the world. That, or put it in brackets. The slash just looks ugly, IMO.

I've followed the pattern established by the Marines Errant.

 

The gene-seed format would be more appropriately expressed as Imperial Fists [black Templars] (see the Marines Errant).

Agreed. I'll make that change.

 

This [the Chapter Tactics] would work better at the end of the article than at the beginning. It's best to compartmentalize rules and fluff as much as possible to avoid jolting the reader out of the IA/whatever-we're-eventually-going-to-call-this.

Fair enough. My logic was that players often like to know on the front end how the Chapter will be played, so I figured putting it in the sidebar information would provide the quick information. I can take it out if it's really that distracting or breaks up the flow of the article.

 

And since we're currently trying to figure out what to call that in the Librarium, suggestions for what to call this kind of article are appreciated.

I don't know why the article format really needs a name, but I'll take that up in the other discussion I saw.

 

While this is perfectly sound, boy does it tie you tight to events which may see further elaboration. GW decides to flesh out the Age of Apostasy even a little and you'll be right back here editing.

That's a risk I'm willing to take.

 

What Shinzaren says bears some weight - what good do the Black Templars serve here that the Imperial Fists would not, and why would the High Lords choose the BT over the IF, who also were awesome during the AoA?

The way I see it, the Imperial Fists and other Chapters present at the siege may have been offered the same opportunity. This opens up an interesting notion with the Soul Drinkers and their eventual fate, but that was unknown at the time of the Age of Apostasy. The only gap with this concept is that the Fire Hawks were one of the four Chapters that participated in the siege, yet they neither claim nor acknowledge any successors. The answer I see to that is that the Fire Hawks were created in M36 and may not have had the gene-seed stores to provide for a new Chapter, with the possibility that the HLoT may have decided to allow for the Chapter to create a successor in a later Founding. Also, the Badab War Part One doesn't say that the Fire Hawks don't have any successors, only that they neither claim nor acknowledge any, leaving open the possibility that there might be a Chapter or two out their that claim descendance from the Chapter (without being acknowledged as such by the Fire Hawks) or a successor may have been created using the Fire Hawks gene-seed without the knowledge or consent of that Chapter. That's all hardly relevant to my Chapter, though. As for whether or not to use the Imperial Fists gene-seed instead of the Black Templars, it might not hurt, but it also doesn't hurt to use the Black Templars (so that's what I'm doing).

 

This [the Stethnyrach Crusade] seems to fit better as part of the battle history than in here, since it doesn't really tell us anything about the Chapter.

 

Also, a note about the tabards: it comes across as a little ludicrous right now. So they wear tabards. So what? If you lead with them being granted Diomondas & Co's standards, then explained how some other veterans now wear them, that might feel a little more natural. As is, it kinda feels like you're making a big deal over cloth, rather than over what the cloth represents.

The intent was to highlight the "reconciliation" between the Black Templars and their successor. It is intended to be less of a description of the Chapter's prowess in battle and more of a turning point in the Chapter's history. I'll re-word it in order to better express that point.

 

Also, the sidebar could fit perfectly well in with the rest of the battle.

We'll see if I can work it in properly with the re-wording, though I called it out as a sidebar in order to highlight this aspect of the Chapter's appearance.

 

While I don't mind them being quite similar to their predecessors, it would be nice if they had some little thing they did that distinguished them from their fellows.

Agreed. I realized that I forgot to work in the reason for the Chapter's name and how that figures into their psyche, so I'll work that into the next draft. However, the intent isn't that they're "quite similar" to their predecessors. I want them to inherit a few things from each (the Black Templars and Imperial Fists) without looking like mini-clones of either Chapter. To that end, that don't follow the Fists' masochistic use of the pain glove (though they still use that in their training/discipline) or scrimshandering, nor do they have the organization or religious fervor of the Templars. They borrow a little from each and have their own unique elements to boot. I just need to add a few unique elements. However, while this Chapter, like every other Chapter, has its unique elements, I don't see them as being overtly different from most other Chapters. They havea few small differences and I need to work on incorporating those into the narrative, but I don't intend for these guys to stand out.

 

It's not arbitrary. There are very logical reasons explaining why the High Lords would not think the Black Templars were a good choice to mentor and train a new Chapter. Starting with the fact that they do whatever the hell they want, whenever the hell they want, with fanatical obsession. That's dangerous.

Every Chapter is autonomous. Some Chapters might be trusted more or less than others based on their history and whether or not they work and play well with others, but that doesn't necessarily preclude a Chapter with a long history of service to the Imperium being chosen to sire a successor. The Badab War book specifically supports the likelihood that Chapters might be chosen to sire successors, as found in the Marines Errant article:

...although why the Eagle Warriors in particular were singled out for the honour of a 'named' founding being drawn from their ranks at this time remains lost to posterity.

We don't know what it was that the Eagle Warriors were singled out for, but whatever it was was sufficient for their gene-seed to be used in the creation of a new Chapter. I figure the Age of Apostasy and the Black Templars' participation in the siege of the palace is of at least equal value, whether the Templars follow the Codex Astartes or not.

 

'Realism' does not prohibit interesting or unique, you know.

 

...

While being different for the sake of being different is bad, you must be at least somewhat different or there's no point in writing it down.

 

I mean, if people ask you what your Chapter is like, at the moment you could save them a lot of time by saying "a lot like the Imperial Fists, actually, but they fight in space more". And it'd be nice if there were more to it than that.

The parallel I would draw here is professional sports teams. While every team is "good" (i.e., they have at least a minimum level of skill and proficiency), not all stand out for their "personality". They might all have little quirks, but that doesn't necessarily make them interesting (especially those that are instictively hostile towards them for whatever reason - say being from a rival team or having a mascot that the fan just doesn't like). While I need to work more to better describe the specific nuances of the Avenging Lions, I don't intend to make them necessarily stand out. I don't want hyperbole. I just want to provide information on the Chapter that I've decided to base my army on. I don't mind if other players don't find them interesting. I just want some feedback to improve the article before I submit it to the librarium. I'm going to remain true to my vision of the Chapter while incorporating appropriate suggestions for improvement.

 

I'm getting the distinct impression from several of your comments that you think you're more talented than the general population of the Liber. And while that may or may not be true, the general population is not likely to respond well to that. You've seemed quite dismissive toward what people do here and the opinions of the community at large (as well as my own), and I'm curious whether you genuinely feel that way, and if so, why you're asking for opinions here at all.

Far from it - I'm just your average bloke with average skills. However, I've seen many players fall into what I consider pitfalls and I want to avoid those pitfalls. I'm learning from the mistakes of others. I don't doubt that I'll make my own mistakes (and I've already acknowledged some of those). Also, if I thought I knew better than others, would I really be here asking for their input, and incorporating the changes that I like/agree with?

 

I put some more thought into this last night.

 

As I mentioned previously, I completely forgot to explain the aspect of the Chapter's beliefs that tie in with the Chapter name. I'll add that into the next draft.

 

I also need to expand upon the role of the combat blades. These have a ritual significance to the Chapter. That will be incorporated into the next draft, too.

 

I'll remove the rules from the next draft. If anyone sees a need to discuss them, please let me know and I'll start a discussion in the homegrown rules section.

 

I'll work on the two or three notable battles that the Chapter participated in for the next draft (which might take some time, especially with Thanksgiving coming up).

 

I took a quick look at the other discussion about what to name these articles and I saw a suggestion that the Badab War Disposition part that appears in the Imperial Armor book might be replaced with a description of the army or something. That's a very interesting idea, so I might do that. At present, though, I'm working on a kill team from this Chapter, so this part of the article might take some time, requiring me to settle on a full army first.

 

Again, thanks for the input (even if I don't agree with some of it).

[NightrawenII]

More importantly, who said that the intent behind the Avenging Lions creation was to create a Codex-adherent successor? I certainly never did. ;)

How it come?

The Codex Astartes is Holy Tome of Space Marines.

Creating non-codex-adherent Chapter is like establishing heretical-sect. Very unlikely given the mindset of Imperium.

[Octavulg]

More importantly, who said that the intent behind the Avenging Lions creation was to create a Codex-adherent successor? I certainly never did. msn-wink.gif

 

It's the logical intent behind most Foundings.

 

I've followed the pattern established by the Marines Errant.

 

God, it looks so icky. Ah well.

 

Fair enough. My logic was that players often like to know on the front end how the Chapter will be played, so I figured putting it in the sidebar information would provide the quick information. I can take it out if it's really that distracting or breaks up the flow of the article.

 

They can always skip to the end, now can't they. :D

 

I don't know why the article format really needs a name, but I'll take that up in the other discussion I saw.

 

Because named things are much easier to talk about, honestly.

 

We'll see if I can work it in properly with the re-wording, though I called it out as a sidebar in order to highlight this aspect of the Chapter's appearance.

 

Highlighting aspects of the Chapter's appearance tends to come across as "and this is why I model them this way!". If you build up to it, that's a lot less pronounced.

 

Every Chapter is autonomous. Some Chapters might be trusted more or less than others based on their history and whether or not they work and play well with others, but that doesn't necessarily preclude a Chapter with a long history of service to the Imperium being chosen to sire a successor. The Badab War book specifically supports the likelihood that Chapters might be chosen to sire successors, as found in the Marines Errant article:

 

Yes, every Chapter is autonomous. And the ones that exercise that autonomy the most are the ones that the Imperium has a low opinion of. Hell, exercising that autonomy got the Celestial Lions (and the Crimson Fists, depending on what fluff you read) destroyed.

 

My problem is with the idea of the Black Templars being chosen to mentor a new Chapter because all they'll teach that new Chapter is "ignore the Codex and ignore Imperial authority. Do what the Emperor would want". And there is no reason for the High Lords to want more of that to be going around.

 

Even if the High Lords wanted to honor the Black Templars, I'd expect them to have the Imperial Fists train the Chapter. Still something the Black Templars will appreciate, but without the risks of ending up with more Black Templars in the long run. It thanks them, but it doesn't encourage them to do the things they shouldn't.

 

The parallel I would draw here is professional sports teams. While every team is "good" (i.e., they have at least a minimum level of skill and proficiency), not all stand out for their "personality". They might all have little quirks, but that doesn't necessarily make them interesting (especially those that are instictively hostile towards them for whatever reason - say being from a rival team or having a mascot that the fan just doesn't like).

 

Sports teams aren't thousand-strong organisations with their own planets and several centuries or millenia of history. Nor are they created in mysticism-shrouded rituals, then perpetuated through more mysticism-shrouded rituals. Or, at least, not to the same extent. :D

 

A Space Marine Chapter's a weird combination of nation, military and fraternal organization. All of those things are noticeable for accruing character over time.

 

And if they have character, that character will be interesting to someone.

 

While I need to work more to better describe the specific nuances of the Avenging Lions, I don't intend to make them necessarily stand out. I don't want hyperbole. I just want to provide information on the Chapter that I've decided to base my army on. I don't mind if other players don't find them interesting. I just want some feedback to improve the article before I submit it to the librarium. I'm going to remain true to my vision of the Chapter while incorporating appropriate suggestions for improvement.

 

You don't necessarily have to make them hyperbolic, or make them stand out. But equally they shouldn't be a color scheme, an insignia, and the practices of their predecessors.

 

Chapter's may not be interesting, but they're at least somewhat distinct from each other.

 

Far from it - I'm just your average bloke with average skills. However, I've seen many players fall into what I consider pitfalls and I want to avoid those pitfalls.

 

Like what?

 

Also, if I thought I knew better than others, would I really be here asking for their input, and incorporating the changes that I like/agree with?

 

If you didn't, would you keep describing things as nonsense?

 

As I mentioned previously, I completely forgot to explain the aspect of the Chapter's beliefs that tie in with the Chapter name. I'll add that into the next draft.

 

I also need to expand upon the role of the combat blades. These have a ritual significance to the Chapter. That will be incorporated into the next draft, too.

 

Those would be good, I think.

 

I took a quick look at the other discussion about what to name these articles and I saw a suggestion that the Badab War Disposition part that appears in the Imperial Armor book might be replaced with a description of the army or something. That's a very interesting idea, so I might do that. At present, though, I'm working on a kill team from this Chapter, so this part of the article might take some time, requiring me to settle on a full army first.

 

That seems kind of redundant with Organization.

 

Honestly, I'd leave it out. It's a section that ties them into the subject of wherever they're included. The appropiate equivalent would seem likely to be something about their involvement with the Legio B&C, but it'd be equally appropriate to have nothing.

[Ace Debonair]

As for whether or not to use the Imperial Fists gene-seed instead of the Black Templars, it might not hurt, but it also doesn't hurt to use the Black Templars.

A strictly codex version of the Black Templars could actually be pretty awesome, if done well. But even so, it'd be a lot less hassle to arrive at that destination by starting from the IF geneseed.

 

Forget 'rules and guidelines', it's just more work and messing about to justify a BT successor than an IF one.

 

More importantly, who said that the intent behind the Avenging Lions creation was to create a Codex-adherent successor? I certainly never did.

Well, given that you copied a BT character and made him weaker, I think it's safe to assume your chapter's not organised the same as the Templars. ^_^ (Which is a good thing )

And if they're not codex, you should probably say so. :lol:

 

Fair enough, but I won't be filling my article with the amount of nonsense I see in most other articles.

Unfortunate choice of words for someone essentially 'making a Black Templar successor because you can't prove there aren't any', to my mind.

Quite besides from referring to a lot of the work we do here as nonsense, which is a great way to make the wrong impression. :P

[Ioldanach]

Fair enough, but I won't be filling my article with the amount of nonsense I see in most other articles.

Unfortunate choice of words for someone essentially 'making a Black Templar successor because you can't prove there aren't any', to my mind.

Quite besides from referring to a lot of the work we do here as nonsense, which is a great way to make the wrong impression. :D

Agreed, "most" was an unfortunate word choice. I see "too many" other articles falling into what I consider to be traps. Sometimes they start out that way, and sometimes they are pushed that way. Just my opinion.

[Ace Debonair]

Fair enough, but I won't be filling my article with the amount of nonsense I see in most other articles.

Unfortunate choice of words for someone essentially 'making a Black Templar successor because you can't prove there aren't any', to my mind.

Quite besides from referring to a lot of the work we do here as nonsense, which is a great way to make the wrong impression. :lol:

Agreed, "most" was an unfortunate word choice. I see "too many" other articles falling into what I consider to be traps. Sometimes they start out that way, and sometimes they are pushed that way. Just my opinion.

Well, we all make mistakes, it's true. :wacko:

The Emperor knows I certainly make my fair share of them. :P

[Ioldanach]

Version 2.0. I made some revisions based on the feedback given so far. I also fixed up the battle honors portion a bit. I didn't want all three to be about fighting Chaos, so I changed the Stethnyrach Crusade to Eldar. I also moved the villain of the Stethnyrach Crusade to the new battle in order to preserve continuity. There are also some notes interspersed to explain and/or highlight areas of concern (they're indicated by the orange numbers corresponding to the notes at the end). I also reorganized some things after reading and re-reading. Hopefully they help the narrative to flow in a more logical manner.

[table=THE AVENGING LIONS]

[tr]

[td=70%]CHAPTER NAME: .............. THE AVENGING LIONS

FOUNDING: .................. 22_ND [M.36]

CHAPTER WORLD: ............. ALIUM/CRUSADING CHAPTER

FORTRESS MONASTERY: ........ THE BATTLE BARGE JUSTICE BRINGER

GENE-SEED (PREDECESSOR): ... IMPERIAL FISTS [bLACK TEMPLARS]

KNOWN DESCENDANTS: ......... NONE

Edited November 28, 2010 by Brule the Spear-Slayer

[Ioldanach]

After taking another look at the work I did and comparing it to IA9, I think I missed the boat on the Selected Battle Honours. For the most part, I didn't include enough information. I also didn't give enough details on why the battles were notable. So I'll be expanding them somewhat to provide a little more information (without making them galaxy-spanning in importance). Also, I really don't like the last sentence of the Stethnyrach Crusade, so I'm going to revise that one (along with a lot of other stuff).

 

Something else I forgot to include was a better explanation on the Chapter's name and colors. I think that the "avenging" part might be clear, but I edited out the explanation on lions (which is nothing more than a neat little informative story and not of any great importance, but it does provide a little bit more of that distinctiveness that was suggested by other members).

 

I'm a terribly slow painter, so what I might do to make this article more like those in IA9 is develop the background for the army I plan on creating, including a major engagement that the army becomes involved in. Then, using the B&C painter, I'll create images for generic Avenging Lions as well as a squad that is part of my army. The Space Marines shown in IA9 are in the basic standing position without weapons/wargear, so I can create some suitable pictures with the current painter. I might have to resort to Photoshop to create a little bit of distinctiveness on par with the Space Marines shown in IA9 - or I might have to resort to the older painter (which will take some work in order to get the colors to match ;) ).

 

Someone else suggested describing the Avenging Lions' relationship with the Legio Bolter & Chainsword. I don't think that I'll do quite that, but I might add a page/picture of my Legio B&C mini-me, including one of those shield things. I think someone said that the templates for the shields are (or would be?) available for download, so that might be an interesting diversion.

 

So expect some revisions the next time around.

[Ioldanach]

I did a little more work and research, as well as a little more in-depth reading of the current version of the article. Apparently I did discuss the inspiration for the color scheme, so I can leave that alone.

 

Going back through IA9, I noted that the chapters that had more lengthy Selected Battle Honours were those that were older. So I'm going to reduce my Selected Battle Honours down to two.

 

I also found more information on the Apostles of the Blind King by going through the rulebook, so I'm going to have to revise that bit.

 

I also didn't like the fate I described for Brother-Captain Artakes. It was too close to that of Chaplain Titus of the Howling Griffons (I was probably subconsciously copying). So I'm changing that a bit.

 

Also, while watching the Avengers cartoon with my daughter, I realized that I'd been drawing upon a number of sources in creating the Chapter badge. In this case, the emblem used by SHIELD was one element (the shield over eagle wings). Another element was from Old Dominion University (the concept of the lion's face on the shield), as well as two elements from LogoLounge Master Library volume 2 3000 Animal & Mythology Logos (the DavisMonthan logo shown on page 148 combined with a bit of inspiration from the Rhino Shield of Amcoat Technologies logo shown on page 207. All of that with some standard WH40K bits thrown in for good measure. I doubt any of you really cares, but I figured I'd tell you anyways. FWIW, one lion design I really liked but ultimately rejected was a derivation of the logo used by the late Ryan Gracie: http://www.infinitymartialarts.com.au/imag...cie%20patch.jpg). I also like the standard Consuls/Mentors eagle head, but wanted to do something a bit different.

 

And then I decided that a little bit of bad blood with another element of the Imperium seemed to be in order. I debated a number of options, but ultimately decided upon another Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes, doing my best to avoid involving any of the major Chapters in the story; and I also wanted to avoid making the relationship too similar to the Fire Hawks and their antagonistic relationships with other Chapters.

 

Finally, I decided to add some more pictures in order to make the article a bit more like the IA9 articles. I used both of the painters and had to do a little bit of Photoshop magic (which didn't come out looking as good as I would have liked, but it's tolerable).

 

So I expect to have the updated article posted later today.

[Ioldanach]

[table=THE AVENGING LIONS]

[tr]

[td=70%]CHAPTER NAME: .............. THE AVENGING LIONS

FOUNDING: .................. 22_ND [M.36]

CHAPTER WORLD: ............. ALIUM/CRUSADING CHAPTER

FORTRESS MONASTERY: ........ THE BATTLE BARGE JUSTICE BRINGER

GENE-SEED (PREDECESSOR): ... IMPERIAL FISTS [bLACK TEMPLARS]

KNOWN DESCENDANTS: ......... NONE

Edited February 21, 2011 by Brule the Spear-Slayer

[Ioldanach]

Well, no one commenting could mean any of several things. First, I've gotten everything "right" enough in everyone's eyes that my work needs no further work (naturally, this is the option I like most so I'm going to delude myself into believing that it's the real reason :nuke: ). Alternately, it could be that the high volume of discussions in this forum has pushed my topic far enough from the first page that no one sees it and doesn't get a chance to consider/criticize (which would be unfortunate, but understandable). Finally, it could be that my intransigence in maintaining the Chapter as a Successor of the Black Templars has soured everyone that wanted me to change their descendance, so they're not willing to comment further. If the last option, that would be highly unfortunate, but I'll survive.

 

Anyways, I've been continuing work on this Chapter, especially since someone else (UltimateJake) has agreed to write a story about the Avenging Lions. So it's imperative that I flesh them out appropriately.

 

One thing I noticed is that I have the Chapter recruiting from multiple worlds, but all of the names I've chosen are based on a Thracian theme. It's difficult to rationalize this. It could be that it just so happens that the battle-brothers of the Chapter use a variety of names based on their original homeworlds, but I've simply picked those that have the Thracian theme. Alternately, it could be that battle-brothers are re-assigned a name upon becoming a full battle-brother, and the list of names just happen to be Thracian in their theme. Another option is that all of the worlds that the Chapter recruits from just happen to follow a similar Thracian naming methodology. You can see how none of those options appeals to me. So it seems to me that I'm going to have to change a few names here and there in order to more accurately (and realistically) reflect the multi-cultural aspect of battle-brother names based on multiple homeworlds.

 

Another thing that I've failed to effectively articulate is the gothic and monastic nature of the Chapter. I really envision this Chapter epitomizing the gothic monasticism of the Adeptus Astartes. They're not "angry knights in space", as some have described the Black Templars, nor are they the secret-hiding Unforgiven. Instead, they embody the merging of monasticism and warrior elite that I believe GW has been working to emphasize for the Space Marines. They're not necessarily "more" gothic/monastic than any other Chapters, though. I just need to work that aspect of the Chapter's nature into their background so that no one draws the wrong conclusions about them. This is still very much a work in progress, so I'll work it in to the revised version of the article.

 

Now since it seems no one has further comments on the Chapter (though I welcome your input), I'll stop updating this thread since that appears to be self-serving. Instead, I've created a blog and will post the revised version of the article and future updates (including actual painting of miniatures :) ) therein. Once I get the background finalized, I'll submit the article to the Librarium. In the meantime, if you think there's anything I need to (re-)consider before I find eternal fame and glory in the Librarium, please post here.

Edited February 21, 2011 by Brule the Spear-Slayer

[Ioldanach]

I found my old copy of the Book of the Astronomican recently and was intrigued at the following:

 

CHAPTER OF WHITESCARS SPACE MARINES

(c.901.M38-988.M41)

[smindent=40]The Whitescars Chapter of Space Marines as presented here, may be regarded as a representative example of the Imperium