The Avenging Lions

[Octavulg]

Well, it seems a little derivative... ;)

 

Nice enough concepts. I think some of it may be the sort of details that are great when you know them, but not as much when explained to a third party. But it makes sense, and it's an interesting source for inspiration.

[Ioldanach]

Well, it seems a little derivative... ;)

I detect my own words coming back to haunt me. :) B)

 

It could be a fair statement, though. Which parts seem a little derivative? I know that there is going to be some level of this as one cannot draw upon inspiration from another source without being somehow derivative. But I want to avoid being overly derivative, so if there's any portion where it looks like I'm laying it on a little thick, I'll find a way to cut back.

 

Nice enough concepts. I think some of it may be the sort of details that are great when you know them, but not as much when explained to a third party. But it makes sense, and it's an interesting source for inspiration.

I'm glad you like the concepts. I'll work up some rough drafts/revisions and hopefully you and others will help me to expand upon them so that it makes sense to a third party.

[Octavulg]

It could be a fair statement, though. Which parts seem a little derivative? I know that there is going to be some level of this as one cannot draw upon inspiration from another source without being somehow derivative. But I want to avoid being overly derivative, so if there's any portion where it looks like I'm laying it on a little thick, I'll find a way to cut back.

 

It's mostly just the fact that the source of your ideas is another Space Marine chapter. It seems like it should be fine once you've finished filing the serial numbers off. ;)

 

More seriously: it'll be fine. They're solid ideas, and I think they'll be plenty distinct enough - especially since the White Scars haven't been using them lately.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Octavulg

[Marshal Rohr]

No wonder you get upset when people say the Black Templars wouldn't sire a new chapter....

[Ioldanach]

It's mostly just the fact that the source of your ideas is another Space Marine chapter. It seems like it should be fine once you've finished filing the serial numbers off. :D

I don't see that as "derivative" in the negative context, however. It's more of a conscious decision based on a reasoned evaluation of the Chapter's background, and the process is the key. To illustrate, I didn't think to myself, "hmmm...I want to make a Chapter that is a cross between the Imperial Fists and the Black Templars. Instead, I looked at the background and started with the concept of a Chapter descended from the Black Templars and how it might reasonably look. There is a consensus among many players that the Black Templars would never father a Successor, and though I don't agree with the conclusion, I agree with elements of the logic that led to the conclusion. So I considered what plausible explanation there might be for the Black Templars to be chosen as a parent for a descendant. From that, I speculated on how that all might pan out and decided that the Black Templars wouldn't train the new Chapter, choosing a training Chapter based on the situation I envisioned. Now I'm not saying that this is the only way that the Black Templars would ever father a Chapter or that every Successor of the Black Templars, if any exist, will look like this. I'm just taking the situation I envisioned and seeing where it takes me.

 

As for why the Chapter might look like the Imperial Fists, the logic is that the initial training cadre came from that Chapter so it's logical that some of the Imperial Fists character would carry through. The Successor doesn't currently look like the Imperial Fists, though there is a core that can be traced to that venerable Chapter (mostly in the swordsmanship, being Stubborn, and being Codex adherent). The Successor has, naturally, developed its own character over time based on its experiences and other influencing factors (the worlds it recruits from, etc.). In this, I've made the Chapter much closer to the Imperial Fists than the Black Templars because it seems much more logical to me. There are elements of the Black Templars I've included, but I've really tried to minimize them. For example, the Avenging Lions don't wear chains and don't follow the Crusade/Crusade Company organizational structure - they were trained by the Imperial Fists and, therefore, follow the Codex Astartes. I initially had the tabards, like the Black Templars, though I modified that based on the explanation for why the Avenging Lions might wear them. I've decided to change that now, though. Probably the only thing that really comes from the Black Templars is the heavier use of the Emperor's Champion. The oaths are a watered down version of the vows of the Black Templars, but I've changed them from an army-wide effect to something that is more personal in nature (I need to ensure that I explain that clearly when I actually write this stuff out) and which doesn't have any in-game effects (i.e., Brother Nick doesn't swear some oath and then have some benefit on the tabletop as a result of that oath - the oaths are just a way to give the Chapter some distinctive character).

 

There are a number of things that are unique to the Avenging Lions when compared to the Imperial Fists and Black Templars, however.

 

No wonder you get upset when people say the Black Templars wouldn't sire a new chapter....

Oh I don't get upset. It just gets frustrating when people don't get it and they try to waste my time in a vain effort to force me to do what they want instead of allowing me to enjoy the hobby. In reality, I pity those that are too narrow-minded to realize that their opinions are their own and that the fluff supports a number of other conclusions. Why they see a need to foist their own opinions on others in some attempt to dominate the game world-view is beyond me. Beyond having to occasionally deal with their intransigence, though, they're not really worth wasting any of my time on, so I just humor them and allow them to voice their thoughts, and then I ignore the prattle and consider the useful stuff. I might have to refute their ideas, and I give that the minimum amount of time it deserves, but after that they get the attention they deserve if they lack the intellect/courtesy to desist - they get ignored as white noise so that I can focus on real constructive feedback/ideas. :D

 

If you have something constructive to add to the conversation (i.e., helping me to further develop the Avenging Lions), I'd be more than happy to hear what you have to say and engage in a collaborative effort with you. If you'd rather just throw out zingers that don't really contribute to the discussion at hand, however... :D

[Octavulg]

I don't see that as "derivative" in the negative context, however.

 

Neither do I! You're reading too much into this. ;)

 

Seriously. I was just talking about the White Scars bit (and not that seriously). IF successors should be a bit derivative of the IF.

 

Now I'm not saying that this is the only way that the Black Templars would ever father a Chapter or that every Successor of the Black Templars, if any exist, will look like this. I'm just taking the situation I envisioned and seeing where it takes me.

 

And speaking as the progenitor of the "Black Templars would never father successors" argument, your explanation works fine. :P

 

I don't think it'd hold as much water if everyone started using it, but it works.

[Marshal Rohr]

No wonder you get upset when people say the Black Templars wouldn't sire a new chapter....

Oh I don't get upset. It just gets frustrating when people don't get it and they try to waste my time in a vain effort to force me to do what they want instead of allowing me to enjoy the hobby. In reality, I pity those that are too narrow-minded to realize that their opinions are their own and that the fluff supports a number of other conclusions. Why they see a need to foist their own opinions on others in some attempt to dominate the game world-view is beyond me. Beyond having to occasionally deal with their intransigence, though, they're not really worth wasting any of my time on, so I just humor them and allow them to voice their thoughts, and then I ignore the prattle and consider the useful stuff. I might have to refute their ideas, and I give that the minimum amount of time it deserves, but after that they get the attention they deserve if they lack the intellect/courtesy to desist - they get ignored as white noise so that I can focus on real constructive feedback/ideas. ;)

 

If you have something constructive to add to the conversation (i.e., helping me to further develop the Avenging Lions), I'd be more than happy to hear what you have to say and engage in a collaborative effort with you. If you'd rather just throw out zingers that don't really contribute to the discussion at hand, however... :)

 

Good thing no one was doing that then, isn't it?

[Ioldanach]

I don't see that as "derivative" in the negative context, however.

 

Neither do I! You're reading too much into this. ;)

 

Seriously. I was just talking about the White Scars bit (and not that seriously). IF successors should be a bit derivative of the IF.

Well no worries, then. :)

 

Now I'm not saying that this is the only way that the Black Templars would ever father a Chapter or that every Successor of the Black Templars, if any exist, will look like this. I'm just taking the situation I envisioned and seeing where it takes me.

 

And speaking as the progenitor of the "Black Templars would never father successors" argument, your explanation works fine. :P

 

I don't think it'd hold as much water if everyone started using it, but it works.

Agreed. I understand the arguments that stack the deck against the Black Templars ever fathering Successors, but that doesn't make the notion impossible.

 

And I don't think I'd enjoy it if everyone jumped on my bandwagon, either. ;)

 

So I'll get to work on revising the article as I described previously and we'll see if I can explain it well enough. Perhaps those who haven't helped anything yet might offer some criticism when I present the draft in order to help me improve upon it.

[Ioldanach]

Apparently I'm not as creative as I thought. I was following some posts here and I realized that my preferred name for the "best of the best" is the same as the title of one of the Night Lords novels. :D I'm not sure if the usage of "Soul Hunters" there is a proper noun applied to a unit/organization, or if it's just a sexy title used to describe them. Either way, I probably need to change the name of my elite guys. Fortunately, I've been doing some conceptualization and have been expanding my ideas for these guys. Here's the current deal...

 

So going back to the basic concept, these guys are nothing more than the equivalent of a standard Honor Guard (or the Sanguinary Guard or Wolf Guard) - they are the most experienced of the Chapter's veterans. So a battle-brother will, once he accrues enough experience, ascend to the 1st Company where he becomes a veteran. While in the 1st Company, he trains in all of the aspects of warcraft and learns how to use terminator armor, and depending upon his preferences/aptitudes he may fight as a Sternguard, Vanguard, or Terminator (or maybe even all three :P ). The best of these veterans becomes a member of the Honor Guard.

 

I'm retaining this basic concept, but I'm going to give it a little bit of Avenging Lions flavor.

 

What I see happening in the Avenging Lions is that the standard "battle-brother to veteran" point is one of the significant crossroads. For most Avenging Lions, this is where a Space Marine is selected to remain on the standard path or if he'll train to join one of the special orders (Apothecary, Techmarine, or Chaplain). Librarians are selected during the initial stages of training, at the junction between neophyte and Scout (wherever such a "junction" might be said to exist). One's aptitude for the other special orders is measured by testing and observation: those that have demonstrated an understanding for complex biological issues might be earmarked as future Apothecaries; those whose intellect seems more in line with technology and the mechanical might be earmarked as future Techmarines; and those who have demonstrated exceptional zeal and devotion to the Chapter's warrior cult might be marked out as future Chaplains. This wouldn't be an immediate transition, though. Instead, battle-brothers who have demonstrated potential aptitude for these orders might undergo a period of apprenticeship and training to see if they truly belong in those orders. If they succeed, they will be fully trained in the appropriate order, but if they don't they might return to the "normal" path.

 

Those battle-brothers (veterans) who don't display an aptitude for one of the specialist orders might become normal veterans, typically fighting as either a Sternguard or a Vanguard until they learn to use terminator armour. It might still be possible for them to be shifted into one of the special orders if they demonstrate aptitude during this stage. The vast majority of veterans will probably "plateau" at the veteran level. This is simply a matter of potential - they might survive the never-ending warfare that the Chapter engages in, but they lack the ability to progress to the very pinnacle of leadership within the Chapter. A small number have both the physical and intellectual potential to progress further, though, and these will become the Honor Guard (whatever I end up calling them). These are the best of the best - veterans whose intellects might enable them to one day lead a company of Space Marines, or even the Chapter. They must be physically potent, but must also be able to apply leadership, tactics, and strategy, as well as direct logistics and perform diplomatically (in whatever capacity Space Marines might by diplomatic, which usually means just coordinating with other elements of the Imperium's war machine, but might also force them to meet with xenos representatives on rare occasions).

 

So there will only be a handful of these guys in the Chapter, perhaps two or three squads.

 

So far, I don't think this is out of sync with the standard organization and progression within a Space Marine Chapter. I've merely provided more detail than Games Workshop has given us, filling in some holes with my own speculation. If I'm wrong in this, please let me know.

 

Now it's going to get a bit hazy, though, as I change things up a bit.

 

All of these Honor Guard will undergo even more advanced leadership training, getting the "big picture" stuff that will enable them to one day lead a company (if they master the material, that is). Some of these will demonstrate that they might never be Captains, despite their martial prowess and intellect. Others will have potential to advance further. Those that lack the potential to advance further aren't shamed in any way - they simply lack the potential to effectively lead a company. If their piety and understanding is sufficient, they might transition over to the Chaplain ranks (going through the normal apprenticeship first). Otherwise, they will be the members that form the Command Squads serving in companies in the Veteran and Company Champion profiles. Those that have the aptitude to become Captains will generally serve in two capacities - either as the Honor Guard proper guarding the Chapter Master or as the Sergeants of the Command squads. In this role they are effectively apprenticed out to the Captains to fully refine their advanced leadership skills, serving as second-in-command while assigned to their companies. This doesn't guarantee that they'll succeed the Captain of the company they're assigned to if he dies, however. If a captaincy becomes vacant for some reason, one of the Command squad Sergeants will take his place after going through some selection process (that I haven't detailed yet, and perhaps never will).

 

So now that I'm ditching both "Souldrinkers" and "Soul Hunters" (thanks to AD-B for using an awesome name :P ) I have to look at alternatives. What I want to do is avoid over-saturating the lion imagery to the point where it becomes a parody of what might be realistic (in the way that I think the association of wolves with the Space Wolves has done). So I'm going to discard the "Lion Guard" idea, too (and I'm surprised no Dark Angels fans jumped on me for that idea in the first place :ph34r: ). So going back to the warrior cult of the Avenging Lions, there is a focus with vengeance and justice. The Chapter sees itself as taking the justice of the Emperor to the outer dark, punishing those that in the eyes of the Avenging Lions commit offenses against the Emperor. This might be for turning from the Imperium (as Chaos Space Marines and Lost and the Damned), being filthy xenos, or something else. They're not doing the job of the Adeptus Arbites (i.e., they're not enforcing the rules of the Imperium). Instead, they see it as their Emperor-given mandate to punish anyone that isn't in the Emperor's light.

 

So where am I going with this? The warrior cult of the Avenging Lions is based around justice.

 

So aside from the Chaplains (and their apprentices) preserving the justice-based warrior cult, I see the Honor Guard being established as the exemplars of the warrior cult. Basically, this is the application of them being the pinnacle of what every Avenging Lions battle-brother aspires to be (though few will ever attain this goal). Most battle-brothers might become pretty good, ascending to veteran level, but few will ever be the "all stars" that are the Honor Guard. In addition to the concept of a "promotion" (i.e., from "Veteran" to "Honor Guard"), I see this as having solemn ritual significance. These battle-brothers have basically proven that they are the best of the best and are thus charged with continuing to exemplify the ideals of the Chapter and to guard its spiritual sanctity. Where the Chaplains both teach and demonstrate the warrior cult's ideals, the Honor Guard are expected to exemplify those ideals (not with fiery zeal as the Chaplains, but through noble example - there's fine semantic difference that I have difficulty in explaining).

 

Taking this concept, the Honor Guard ranks will be given a special name that suits the nature of the Chapter and its warrior cult. The focus is on justice, so the working name I have right now is "Guardians of the Temple of Justice" (the "Temple of Justice" being the Chapter's Reclusiam). There's an element of cheesiness to that title, so I'm willing to change it if I can find anything suitably epic and accurate that doesn't have cheesiness. The "rule of cool" will apply. ;)

 

Assuming I end up going with the "Guardians of the Temple of Justice", the name for the Honor Guard would then revolve one of the three elements: guardian, temple, or justice. All three have an element of coolness to them, but each also comes with a down-side. "Guardian" is the least cool, though it is most normal in that it parallels the Honor Guard, Sanguinary Guard, and Wolf Guard. "Temple" becomes "templar", which some might feel is too close to the Black Templars (the parent Chapter of the Avenging Lions), though it has definite ties to the Great Crusade era Imperial Fists Legion. "Justice" might become "justicar", though that might be considered too close to the Grey Knights. Of the three, I like "justicar", and it leads to unique Avenging Lions ranks (e.g., the company captains are called "Justicar-Captains", the Chapter Master is called the "Justicar-Commander", etc.) If I go with another name for the Honor Guard, I think I'd like to retain "justice" in there in order to go with the justicar usage. If anyone can come up with some other cool name that gives a decent title, however, I'm willing to switch. Right now, though, I have to say that I'm quite eager to use "justicar".

 

Some will see a sort of parallel with other Chapters and their unique organizations/appellations, though I've tried to avoid mirroring them too closely. While I've pointed out the Honor Guard, Sanguinary Guard, and Wolf Guard, I would be remiss in not pointing out the Black Templars, Dark Angels, Relictors, and Grey Knights. The Sword Brothers of the Black Templars are quite like the Honor Guard, and I think that the progression is quite similar to what I've done for the Avenging Lions. I've made some very minor deviations from the Sword Brothers, but they are, for the most part, nothing more than the Black Templars version of the veterans and honor guard of other Chapters, so looking similar to the Sword Brothers isn't unreasonable. Note that the similarity isn't derived from the Avenging Lions' descent from the Black Templars, and I definitely want to ensure that whatever name I give the Avenging Lions guys doesn't mistakenly give the impression that I'm just copying from the Black Templars. In this, I really think that I should avoid the use of "templar" in the name (even though I think it could be used well based on the Legion's history). The Deathwing of the Unforgiven Chapters is a strong representation of the higher ranks and orders within a Chapter. Likewise for the Conclave of the Relictors. Lastly, the Grey Knights have the Paladins (and as I've indicated, explicitly use the title "justicar"). I think I've successfully avoided mirroring any of these Chapters too closely, though I hope anyone that disagrees will let me know.

 

Sort of related to this whole "Honor Guard" issue is the Thracian swords I want to use. Last night I saw migsula's beautiful Alpha Legion project, especially noticing the blade that he gave to Alpharius That is a good representation of the Thracian sword I'm talking about, though I'm probably going to modify it a bit, making the blades a bit more robust. I also have a vision of incorporating elements of the Butcher Guards, the bodyguard of King Balor in Hellboy 2: The Golden Army. I don't envision the Avenging Lions honor guard to be as slow, nor do I see the swords being quite as cumbersome in appearance, but there are aesthetic elements of the Butcher Guards and their swords that I want to express in the Avenging Lions. Actually, you can see a much better picture here, and I definitely don't want the heavy chopper appearance of those blades. I think the concept I want is the ceremonial presence and fighting prowess they possess in performing their duties as a bodyguard. Hmmm...perhaps the Chapter Master of the Avenging Lions will have only one arm (the other one being bionic)...

 

So I've thrown a lot at you. This is all malleable stuff. My intent is to give you an understanding of where I'm going with this so that you can better critique the write-up I do for the article. If there is anything that you think needs to be worked on conceptually, please let me know. Otherwise, this should give you an understanding so that you can let me know where I can improve the actual article.

[Ioldanach]

Okay, I've made my initial revisions into the article. Please let me know if you see anything that I missed or which might need some revision:

[table=THE AVENGING LIONS]

[tr]

[td=70%]CHAPTER NAME: .............. THE AVENGING LIONS

FOUNDING: .................. 22ND

[M.36]

CHAPTER WORLD: ............. ALIUM/CRUSADING CHAPTER

FORTRESS MONASTERY: ........ THE STAR FORT CONSTANTIUS

GENE-SEED (PREDECESSOR): ... IMPERIAL FISTS [bLACK TEMPLARS]

KNOWN DESCENDANTS: ......... NONE

[Ioldanach]

(long overdue update)

[table=THE AVENGING LIONS]

[tr]

[td=70%]CHAPTER NAME: .............. THE AVENGING LIONS

FOUNDING: .................. 22ND

[M.36]

CHAPTER WORLD: ............. ALIUM/CRUSADING CHAPTER

FORTRESS MONASTERY: ........ THE STAR FORT CONSTANTIUS

GENE-SEED (PREDECESSOR): ... IMPERIAL FISTS [bLACK TEMPLARS]

KNOWN DESCENDANTS: ......... NONE