DoA players... how do you handle superior assault units?

[jbarket]

So, I tested a new version of my 1850 list today against my forever opponent's first try at a Daemonhunters list, and he tabled me. He's a good player, so I didn't expect to wreck him, but I actually knew I had lost on Turn 3 immediately after my first assault.

 

His list was something like (excuse my lack of knowledge about DH):

Grey Knights Grand Master w/ retinue in LRC

Grey Knights Termies on foot

2x Stormtroopers in Rhinos

1x Stormtroopers on foot

Vindicare Assassin

 

My list was:

JP Libby w/ Unleash and Shield

JP HG w/ 4x MG

2x JP Priests

3x 10 man RAS w/ 2x MG and PF

1x 10 man RAS w/ 2x FL and PF

2x Devastators w/ 4x ML

2x Scout Squad w/ 4x SR and ML

 

I rolled very poorly and he rolled very well, but the end result was still pretty shocking. I mowed through his Stormtroopers and the Assassin like they were free KPs, but I did not kill one terminator. When my list was significantly less refined, I blew through Deathwing and did well against Loganwing, so I'm used to termies.

 

What I wasn't used to was termies with superior weapon skill, ridiculous wounding ability and an IC who hit at the same time as I did on the charge.

 

If I ran mech BA, I would have a solid answer for this--shoot the hell out of them--but as DoA, I'm having a hard time finding something that isn't an insane point sink.

 

SG would have denied their armor saves, but would have died just as easily. DC would have had an additional attack each, but would have fallen like stones before they got to swing back.

The only options I see are VV or HG with SS, but even then it doesn't look hopeful. Terminators would do very well (particularly with a priest), but they're like a lead weight around the waist of a DoA list.

 

What are you guys doing? How do you handle units that spam PWs, have superior initiative or just throw out a ton of wounds?

[SnorriSnorrison]

Hi jbarket,

 

seems like a tough nut to crack, but Terminators are Terminators in the end. Plasma- and Meltaguns are their bane, as are powerweapons striking before them in CC.

 

A unit of Sanguinary Guard with 2x Infernuspistols and Chapter Banner is 250 pts, 5 Grey Knight Terminators are 245 pts, no upgrades included.

 

Stick a Sanguinary Priest to the Guard and go slicing some Terms, they will die, even on average rolling. With init and s5 they won't have a chance to deal with the losses or to dish out significant damage.

 

And, if you don't mind, some advice for your list:

 

The Libby seems to better be replaced by a reclusiarch, as enemy psykers can't ban his abilities(rerolling, fearless). Also, the Libby is not very good in CC, especially not against those who can hinder his psychic abilities.

 

The Honour Guard is overkill. You won't need 4 meltas very often, better replace about 2 of them by Powerweapons and/or Stormshields.

 

The Missile Launcher Devs might not be the answer for everything as they will have some hard times against the LRC and the two Rhinos will be gone very fast. I´d suggest to replace one dev unit with a unit of two Landspeeders with Mulit-Meltas here. They are fast as hell and can threaten the LRC in round 2. After that, you can assault the Grey Knight Grandmaster and stuff,

 

The Scout squads don't make sense to me...you tried to pin the stormtroopers, I suppose? Those points might better be spent on assaultier units like SG or the Reclusiarch.

 

 

I have assembled an alternative list. As I don't know what point limit you played, I just took 1500:

 

Reclusiarch, JP

 

Sanguinary Guard, 2x IP, Chapterbanner 250

Sanguinary Priest 2x Jp 150

 

Assault Squad, 2x MG, PF, 2x 470

Assault Squad, 2x Fl, PF 225

 

Landspeeder Squadron, 2 Speeders, 2x MM 120

 

Devastator Squad, 4x ML 130

 

 

I think that this might be more effective. Add the Honour Guard and that list is even more combat-orientated. Perfect for DoA. ^_^

 

 

I hope this was helpful.

 

 

Snorri

[daboarder]

grab some VV and assualt him on the drop, just make sure they are in range of a priest.

[shatter]

Aye, you're surprisingly short of veterans and ap2/PW models. Yes, you have plenty of melta, but overall, quite low max application per player turn. I also prefer some AP2 in deva squads. 2ML, 1PC, 1LC is my favourate combo.

[Hellios]

Grey knights shouldn't give you an issue in combat... yes WS5... (I think?) yes S6 and in this case terminators... but if you are shooting them orn hitting them at the same time or first you should be killing enough... even if they kill a lot in return... they have very few guys. Obviously if you have bad rolls and he won't fail a save... well there is nothing you can do about that...

[tahrikmili]

concentrate your devastator missile launcher fire on them, frag missiles, spam them with silly amounts of templates from afar and force obscene amounts of armor saves. Win.

[bulley]

Drop the scouts - and get a VV unit (or SG) to be your hammer unit - both of which can/are beasts in combat. - That will solve some of your problems. RAS are good but not great in combat and while they'll eat guard and some other units alive second you face ahmmer/deathstar units you'll have trouble.

 

The HG / VV then form a sort of tag team on big units, and RAS suppor these - 1 or 2 squads then can peal off and go for objectives later w/ 12" + run moves if needed, and the others if still alive move for front objectives.

[Brother Nathan]

if something is better than you in cc, then dont fight it in cc. thought most people would figure that. relic blade weilding terminators shouuld kill nything. your problem against them would probably be your powerfists. sure its easier to get a kill with it than a power weapon. but on the charge against uch a unit i know id want to swing first on the charge to reduce the attacks back at me. but as others said. shoot them. they dont get storm sheilds and the like so plasma annons ruin their day...

[SnorriSnorrison]

I agree with Hellios. S6 won't save them if there is nobody to strike back. Overwhelm them with brutal force, then swarm out to kill the stormtroopers. Assault Squads with FC will absolutely devastate them...oh, and the SG might have a field day by shooting them with their AP4 bolters.

 

Snorri

[Redfinger]

Alot of what should be done has already been said, basically 3 things though;

 

1. Concetrated fire power- you have dev's and melta's, concentrate your fire on them, they will be widdled down.

 

2. Mobility- you have 18 inches of assault threat and 12in of movement, use it, pick and choose your battles

 

3. Storm Shields- I have been talking this point for a while nowand no one seems to be understanding, the SS's allow you to absorb those attacks, to break the momentum of the assaultee, and that is the single biggest threat to any assaulting unit, having your momentum stopped. By HI'ing the VV with SS's this is effectively stopping that momentum. Now if you are playing a kp game, follow this up by a concentrated asault with as many other units you can, you get enough s5/I5 atttacks and anything will die. If your playing an objective game then leave the VV to just tarpit that unit, with 3-4 SS's they will survive the whole game.

 

Lastly I don't think the 4 melta on the HG are a waste, I think that is a great fire platform, I wouldn't reccomend anything less than 3.

 

Ashton

[SamaNagol]

That isn't a superior Assault army. It's a very expensive small model count army that dies when it has it's protective AV14 shell removed.

 

Send in a Assault Squad and slag the Raider. Then gang up and pick off the units one at a time with the charge.

[daboarder]

wait....is anyone else having MASSIVE deja vu?

 

I just think that this exact question came up when the new codex was released an redfinger ad snorri answered the exact same way, mort was involved someway if m memory is corect.......or am I going crazy?

[gustmic]

What Redfinger said.

 

/gustmic

 

Visit my All-jumper Blood Angel WIP for 2000pts

[SnorriSnorrison]

wait....is anyone else having MASSIVE deja vu?

 

I just think that this exact question came up when the new codex was released an redfinger ad snorri answered the exact same way, mort was involved someway if m memory is corect.......or am I going crazy?

 

Never gonna change my opinion on that. :D

 

 

Snorri

[HERO]

and an IC who hit at the same time as I did on the charge.

 

Are we playing the same game? Most ICs these days have I5/6..

[jbarket]

Are we playing the same game? Most ICs these days have I5/6..

 

It was that in combination with the rest.

 

So, I tweaked my list and brought a squad of assault termies, put my libby in termie armor and delivered them (and a furioso) in a SR. He tweaked his list to replace all of the Stormtroopers with regular GK marines, swapped out for a different assassin and generally beefed things up.

 

This time, it was Blood Angel domination. I think it's unlikely that a lone SR could survive against most armies, but with only one long range threat, I had no problem getting around the board. Terminators with FC and LCs did well against his GK termies, and the Furioso with talons... just wow. I dropped it, charged a full squad of GK marines and they all died before they could even swing back.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have not run up against any deathstar my BA cannot smack around the table. :)

 

0b :)

[Jorre]

Your ranged support almost seems like a complete waste against his army. Missile launchers are terrible against terminators and Land Raiders, you would be better off with a couple AC/LAS Predators or retooling your devastators to use Heavy Plasma or Lascannons.

[SamaNagol]

I'd imagine the Vindicare is the biggest hindrance to you here, being able to snipe your one wound Sanguinary Priests for free.

[jbarket]

I'd imagine the Vindicare is the biggest hindrance to you here, being able to snipe your one wound Sanguinary Priests for free.

 

He was a major concern, but with focus fire, I took him out easily. I killed his... whatever assassin in the second game... on turn 1 to rid myself of the threat.

 

As far as the ranged support... I totally agree, but this is in an all comers list. Tailoring to him, I would just take a ton of PWs and plasma and just overwhelm him.

[SamaNagol]

How did you manage to get the Vindicare? Both units of devastators?

[mercury]

Looking at your original list, I am not terribly surprised that you lost your first game. I have been working with DoA-style armies for a little while and found that you REALLY need a powerhouse assault unit or two. Unfortunately Assault Marines just aren't sufficiently strong in an assault. Others have said it, but I must re-iterate that you should be fielding either Sang Guard or Vanguard. I would personally recommend Vanguard with storm shields and 1/2 special weapons for a mix of resilience and combat potential, even on the turn they arrive.

 

For reference, the core of my DoA lists is almost always as follows:

(all have jump packs)

Librarian

2 Sang Priests

20 Assault Marines

5 Vanguard with at least 3 storm shields, power fist and glaive

*special weapons & power fists scattered throughout

 

The Vanguard are expensive, but work better than termies or Sang Guard in this type of list because they can keep up with the army without relying on a transport and can use HI to prevent themselves from being wiped out by shooting before they inflict any damage. The unit should be capable of standing up to GK termies, particularly if you can manouveur a Sang Priest into a position to support them.