Arco Flagellants

[River Black]

I recently picked up a set of six of these guys and have started to paint them up. I just love the look and the concept of them but I am having a hard time working them into a semi competitive list. I was wondering if anyone has had any luck with them and what’s the best way to use them. I think with the 5th ed run rule they should be able to get into the red zone more quickly but they still seem to be lacking the essential I5.

[the jeske]

they kill themselfs too fast , cost too much [for squads that are big enough to be effective in hth ] and die to their own rules . to take them you have to drop stuff like exorcists for example , which considering the lack of long range fire power is a no go in sob lists. For IG lists it is better to run a cannones as counter , cheaper and a better tar pit [also easier to hide] . not viable in any form of list.

[ValourousHeart]

They are awesomeness vs. Nids.

 

Just played the other day... turn one stealers assaulted one of my seraphim squads.... left 4 of the 7 girls alive... Hit and Run.

This left the stealers between 2 squads of 3 arco, and 1 Penitent Engine.

 

My turn, sera zoom off and nuke a guant squad.

Dominion squad drives over and nukes a second stealer squad that didn't run far enough to assault turn one.

Penitent flamed some stealers and then both arco units and PE charged.

 

Stealers went first at I6... killed 1 arco.

Arco swung at I4, 1 rolled 6 attacks and killed himself.

PE didn't get to swing cause all the stealers died at I4.

 

Sure some will say that this is a fluke... but I did take a Psychos list to a local tourny last year.

 

My list was

 

=I= lord w/ 3 HB servitors

priest with brazer

3 squads of 7 IST w/ shotguns

2 PE

Orbital Strike

 

Ended up tied for 3rd, but lost the dice off to see who would collect prizes.

Oddly enough the army that gave this list the most trouble was TAU... go figure.

[calypso2ts]

You need to be very careful in how you use Arcos in order to get the most out of them. They really need to be used as a counter assault unit, possibly following some Melta squads to keep them out of LoS. If I were to use them I wouldnt activate the Stims until I was right on my enemy, then I would pray that I did not get a 6" on my Rage run and let them take down tacticals, non SS Terminators or other similar targets. They are best for hitting units without an Invulnerable Save that have a significant cost that can be killed so you dont have to risk rolling 6's in a second round of combat.

 

For fun run them, I run PE's at times for fun, but in a competitive environment they just are not good enough.

[Eltnot]

They are awesomeness vs. Nids.

 

Just played the other day... turn one stealers assaulted one of my seraphim squads.... left 4 of the 7 girls alive... Hit and Run.

This left the stealers between 2 squads of 3 arco, and 1 Penitent Engine.

 

My turn, sera zoom off and nuke a guant squad.

Dominion squad drives over and nukes a second stealer squad that didn't run far enough to assault turn one.

Penitent flamed some stealers and then both arco units and PE charged.

 

Stealers went first at I6... killed 1 arco.

Arco swung at I4, 1 rolled 6 attacks and killed himself.

PE didn't get to swing cause all the stealers died at I4.

 

How many stealers were in that unit? How many points did your arcos cost compared to that stealer unit?

I think you'll find that the stealers cost a lot less and probably came close to killing their points value anyhow between those three seraphim and the one arco, two if you include the one that killed himself.

 

3 seraphim - 66 points

2 arcos - 70 points

Total - 136 points

 

Genestealers - If there was anything less than 10 genestealers involved, than you lost out in that engagement.

[ValourousHeart]

Did I call that one or not... told you some one would claim it was a fluke.

 

How many stealers were in that unit? How many points did your arcos cost compared to that stealer unit?

I think you'll find that the stealers cost a lot less and probably came close to killing their points value anyhow between those three seraphim and the one arco, two if you include the one that killed himself.

 

3 seraphim - 66 points

2 arcos - 70 points

Total - 136 points

 

Genestealers - If there was anything less than 10 genestealers involved, than you lost out in that engagement.

 

But I'll indulge you.

 

We started the game late and only got to the end of turn 1 by closing time.

But in that one round here is what we did.

I don't know nid points so I'll tell you what we had and how killed what and you tell me who was winning.

It was a 2000 point game, pitched battle, 2 objectives.

 

His List:

 

Tyrant w/ 3 body guards

3 Hive guard (no LOS missile launchers)

16 Shooty Guants (upgraded to shoot 40 some odd poison shots per turn)

8 Stealers

8 Stealers

Troop MC that spits out guants (tervagon i think)

6 Warriors (decked out for wound allocation)

MC w/ flamer template that shoots like hell hound

 

My List:

 

Saint

3 Arco

3 Arco

10 sisters w/ vet, melta, HF, brazier, book

---Rhino (IA2) Smoke, Light, 2 SB

10 sisters w/ vet, melta, HF, brazier, book

---Rhino (IA2) Smoke, Light, 2 SB

10 sisters w/ vet, melta, HF, brazier, book

---Rhino (IA2) Smoke, Light, 2 SB

7 Sera w/ vet, 2 flamers, brazier, book

7 Sera w/ vet, 2 flamers, brazier, book

5 Dom w/ vet, 4 flamers, brazier, book

---Priest w/ brazier

---Immolator (IA2) w/ HF, Holy Prom, EA

1 Penitent Engine

Exorcist

Exorcist

 

List of who killed what:

 

Hive Guard => 1 rhino, 1 sera (from rhino explosion)

1st Stealer unit => 2 sera, 2 arco (one arco killed himself... but sure we can count it here :P )

Tervagon spit out one unit of 12 guants Turn 1 (maybe that counters some of my damage)

 

1st Exorcist => 1 warrior

2nd Exorcist => 3 wounds on flamer MC

PE => 4 stealers (with his HF)

Arcos => 4 stealers between both squads (3 wounds from one squad, 5 from the other)

Dominion Squad => 8 stealers (didn't need the braziers)

1st Sera unit=> 16 guants (used the brazier just to be sure)

 

His tervagon was on his objective and his tyrant was pushing toward mine.

It would take 3 turns for his guants spit from the Tervagon to reach the objective.

My sera were about to start racing down the length of board and would have take 3 turns to get to his objective.

My exorcist were 2 turns from the hive guard having range but would have to come within LOS of my exorcist to be in range.

My arcos and PE were in range to charge his Hive guard.

 

My whole point in replying is that every unit in Codex: Witch Hunters can be used effectively.

And you don't have to sacrifice to include them. (taking arcos doesn't prevent you from taking Exorcists, as someone above claimed... 1 is elite, the other is heavy support... maybe he was thinking of the PE).

You just have to craft a list to work on the synergies of the units.

 

We can't just say hey I have some points left over, let's toss in an orbital strike.

But you can build a competitive list around any of the so called useless units... you just have to decide during list creation what units you want to use, and how you want to enable them to complete their job.

 

For example... Arcos, PE and Repentia need either a bait or an escort unit(s)... to get them close to the enemy unit without being diverted by something they can't hurt or will kill them out of hand.

[melvinmcsnatch]

I never consider something worth it if it has such a narrow use and set of extravagent conditions that must be fulfilled, and that's exactly what this unit takes. Unless you're gonna set up the terrain to conceal your movement , get the charge, roll a good dice for attacks, and not get shot at everbecause your 6 arcos are gunline food. The drugs will kill you.

 

But since you've bought them, try them out! Just remember to pick a fight with something bigger than them. This 200+ squad WILL NOT survive, so make it count.

 

I've sworn off Arcos, Repentias and PE's forever. I've had good moments with them all, but from week to week, they've just been a giant waste of points that I'd rather reserve for Retributor squads.

[ValourousHeart]

What exactly do you mean by "narrow use and a set of extravagant conditions"?

[the jeske]

it is only good against "non in cover units of meq ". does stuff only in hth but has no transport and if you make them faster before the assault there is a good chance that some of them will die before striking [or the chance is smaller but your squad of arcos is small too , but that kinds of a sucks for a unit that does not go in to a transports and has a cover class sv].

[River Black]

I only paid $10 for the set 2nd hand so im not that concerned about it being a poor investment. Besides just like other dead beat models I would hope that these guys get a decent rule face lift when sisters get an updated codex. I picked up three PE for the same reason and also at $10 each. I guess they would fall into the same category as the Arco as well or do PE have more of a chance. I figured that I would ask here instead of just making a new thread.

[andrewm9]

it is only good against "non in cover units of meq ". does stuff only in hth but has no transport and if you make them faster before the assault there is a good chance that some of them will die before striking [or the chance is smaller but your squad of arcos is small too , but that kinds of a sucks for a unit that does not go in to a transports and has a cover class sv].

 

That and they have no assault grenades. Assaulting into cover is a bad idea for these guys

[Eltnot]

Did I call that one or not... told you some one would claim it was a fluke.

I didn't say it was a fluke. I proved that you actually lost out in that engagement. You lost more points worth of models than your opponent, and are trying to claim that as a good result.

 

Half a page of text doesn't change the fact.

 

Arcos = Fail in 99% of circumstances.

End of discussion.

[Aidoneus]

Out of curiosity, what do people think of arcos in Apocalypse? You can Flank March to get them into hand-to-hand, and the invuln saves will actually help against a crazy amount of low-AP and/or Str D weapons. Worth taking in those situations?

[Fredegar Kadere]

It is foolhardy to rate the worth of a unit by comparing its cost to that of the opposing models cost that it kills. A vindicare does not earn its points by plicking off a lone lascannon marine, but by picking off the power fist marine in the squad that is about to get assaulted by a dreadnought. A lowly canoness does not earn her points by assaulting a Death Company squad for four turns without a single kill before dying, but by keeping that squad tied up while the rest of your army repositions and takes out the smaller fish. The worth of a unit is the disruption to the enemy's plans that it can cause. Rock - paper - scissors.

 

With that said I would not consider the Arco-flagellant to be good for a semi-competitive list. They fall more into the fluffy Ecclesiarchy list. As others have mentioned the Arco is hampered by a high cost and low survivability rate due to the fact that they kill themselves off over time. If you do plan to run them I would run them close to the maximum allowed that way your rolls of 6 have less a chance of impacting the overall performance of the Arco squad. If you plan to use them as a linebreaker unit then have them shielded by advancing foot sloggers or within the healthy heart of an armoured transport column. Keep them around your squishies and Exorcists if using them as a counter-assault defender/attacker. In both cases do not activate stimms unless you are engaged in an assault or positive that they will be able to assault that turn. Sisters do not have much in the toughness department so a high toughness model with a always on invulnerable save can make a semi decent tarpit unit as long as stimms stay offline. Use wound allocation shenanigans if you happen to roll a 6 in the assault phase on one of the Arco's, note that the wording in the entry is up to debate so you may want to clear that with the opponent first.

 

Ideally you would want to send the Arcos against an enemy unit that ignores armor with its melee attacks, has a low number of melee attacks, or that has a high armor save.

[the jeske]

Out of curiosity, what do people think of arcos in Apocalypse? You can Flank March to get them into hand-to-hand, and the invuln saves will actually help against a crazy amount of low-AP and/or Str D weapons. Worth taking in those situations?

 

same points invested in to TH/SS termis work better, specialy as there are no limitations if you can or cant take them .

 

. A lowly canoness does not earn her points by assaulting a Death Company squad for four turns without a single kill before dying, but by keeping that squad tied up while the rest of your army repositions and takes out the smaller fish. The worth of a unit is the disruption to the enemy's plans that it can cause. Rock - paper - scissors.

doesnt change the fact that A arcos do nothing in shoting . B are bad in assault[no transport , kill themselfs , no frags , random number of attacks means they have to be run at 6 man size . +4inv with 4Tand 1W means they die to small weapon fire] C they cost a lot and dont give faith in a faith centered army D they are bad hth units in an army that does not do hth and they cant do counter [ because again too slow , no frags , cant realy deal with stuff like walkers or HQ+squad] . A cannones is good because she is cheap , recycles faith when dies and does a good tar pit with inv +2 . she does not kill stuff [not with the number of A she has] , but she can tar put [and no I dont think that she can survive more then 2 turns of hth against DC , unless the DC is 4 man strong] .

f you plan to use them as a linebreaker unit then have them shielded by advancing foot sloggers

aha and this way your opponent will just tap them with those anti horde units he normaly runs [in case of IG or SM] and they will be no difference between runing them in the open and behind a unit [save for the fact that trying to slog sob is a bad idea to being with] . And even if they somehow reach hth ,all it takes is cover and they bounce of even a tactical , not to mention stuff like BA/SW/chaos squads. [because against eldar/tau/DE they will never see hth or they will see it get charged and die befor striking. ]

Sisters do not have much in the toughness department so a high toughness model with a always on invulnerable save can make a semi decent tarpit unit as long as stimms stay offline.

I would sooner buy a unit of GK termis and use them as tar pit then 6 arcos[and fewer wont counter a thing] . I mean what kind of a unit assaulting do we talk here , IG ? because bolter taping and/or charge can destroy a unit of arcos most of the time due to rate of fire , even more so if there is cover. just from one squad without any help.

[Inquisitor Fox]

My opinion on cases like this remains the same: If a unit appeals to your style or your preferences, or it's something that you think is "neat" try it and see. Chances are the things that "call to you" somehow are the things you should be using. Everything has a use and a time and place, the trick is just getting the experience to learn to use it to it's strengths and minimize it's weaknesses. That and they're fun, and that's the reason we play, right?

[Marid]

If we all played what was "best" the game wouldn't have much variety, would it?

 

I just finished painting six Arcos, three Daemonhosts, and I have three Penitent Engines coming up next. Ready for a random good time? :devil:

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Ok i will wade into this arguement.... Having a 10k+ size SoB army.

 

Well lets see i have 2 full squads of Arco Flaggallants, and i know there expensive, i know you have to be careful with them, i know if you roll 6's it means an instand death for one of them. But i will tell you, if you enjoy playing them and learn a few targets to attack with priority, these guys are seriously killers.

 

Firstly i once played a 3000 point army versus a Black Templar army, now not counting i only rolled twp 6's for these guys, if you want to compare there worth well try this. In the end before there demise they had killed a whole squad of Sword Brethran, a tactical squad, and also a devestator squad. All nicely lined up one after the other. If you plan any squad you can make it work. Its not how many points you have to win back, its how you use them.

As Fredegar Kadere mentioned, the Vindicare probably wont kill 110 points of worth, but can kill of select targets that can hamper your opponents capabilities.

 

I use them in small lists from 1500 points to great efficiency, most small games have troops, these guys with 4+ Inv save actually are harder to kill than most everything out there, and when you get within charge range, will say "chunky salsa".

 

the jeske: he isnt playing SM's, he is playing WH, why would you consider Arco's when you cant even allie them into these armies unless he just uses no SoB altogether. And i for one, find id rather have Arco's over TH/SS termies actually..more attacks, 50% save still fine for me, and all power weapons, which means and yes ive tried it, they strike first. Now assuming you get all 6 Arco's agaisnt a 5 man or more squad of TH/SS termi squad they will stike with 6 to 36 power weapon attack. How many on average 2 or lower will you roll for your saves??

Do you even know tactics, seriously is everything just charge and get shot at? I garauntee if you played me with a SM you would seriously be shown what i have done for years with these guys, and NO they dont just get shot at and die to small arms fire. Use screens, Rhino's and lots of cover, you dont ever find some stupid soldier blindly walking into massed anymore, its not the civil war.

I never use Arco's for suicide death squads, i always find and will tell you, i have always reached hth with them, and proven there worth, most opponents now who have faced them with me, know to kill them before they get withing range.

Finally as for foot SoB, i run a Apoc list with 2X10 girl and 2x 20 girl foot troops and trust me, they survive very well actually and have defeated lots of SM, Nidz and Ork armies.

And your statement that a Canoness is only good for tar pitting, seriously have you ever played SoB properly or faced a real opponent using her? My last battle my Nun of Doom, managed to kill a squad of possessed, assisted with a Battlewagon, 10 orks inside and single handedly killed a BloodThirster, so tell me how is she only good for one thing??

 

Anyway, if you like the Arco's, use them, paint them and find your style of play with them. Some armies you will find trouble with, but dont give up because one or two on here think there crap, overpriced and lack grenades. You will enjoy killing your opponents with these guys. Just remember to use cover, mobile cover and back them up and clear dangeous targets like artillary, heavy weapons with your Excorsists and a LR or two from your Inquisitor.

Enjoy them. I do

[Eltnot]

Out of curiosity, what do people think of arcos in Apocalypse? You can Flank March to get them into hand-to-hand, and the invuln saves will actually help against a crazy amount of low-AP and/or Str D weapons. Worth taking in those situations?

I'd rather take Repentia. A largish unit can often pull off a multicharge against several vehicles and damage several in a turn. Add a budget priest and they become reasonable vs skimmers and other fast vehicles too. That said, that's about the only time that Repentia are a good unit, where they can come on and immediately charge tanks.

[calypso2ts]

I would play Repentia if I had the chance to outflank them, otherwise they are just too tough to get into the enemy

 

The same applied to arcos, I think the real issue for me is that you lose control of the unit. The same thing with Penitent Engines, rage is terrible on these units and makes them tough to use in a meaningful manner.

[Onnotangu]

Did I call that one or not... told you some one would claim it was a fluke.

I didn't say it was a fluke. I proved that you actually lost out in that engagement. You lost more points worth of models than your opponent, and are trying to claim that as a good result.

 

Half a page of text doesn't change the fact.

 

Arcos = Fail in 99% of circumstances.

End of discussion.

 

not everyone cares about points made back. some of us play for fun.

 

I got 21 zealots, 13 repentia, 6 arcos and 2 PEs that romp all the do da day over most Ork/SM/Tyranid armies I come across. they don't always win but I certainly do have fun.

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Exactly i have 6 PE's and 2 squads of Arco's, and 2 twenty girl squads of Repentia, and i love using them all together in one mad rush across the field in a Apoc game. Its very intimidating for your opponent to ignore them. And nearly everytime they reached the other side and just started carving the field to peices.

Now while thats happening im moving all my forces to reach there tank line with Immolator Dominion squads. It soon becomes a rout for there army as they try to deal with so many threats in there lines.

Its actually quit funny to see.

[the jeske]

wait . how do you get 2 units of repentia in a single army ?

[ValourousHeart]

Wow so many comments to respond to.

BTW... I hope everyone had a great thanks giving.

 

...if you make them faster before the assault there is a good chance that some of them will die before striking [or the chance is smaller but your squad of arcos is small too...

 

The chance of them dying to holy rage is the same chance as a PG or PC has of getting hot.

If you are so frightened of that chance, why are you not against plasma for the same reason?

 

During the movement phase only a single die is cast to determine how far you move... so there is a 1:6 chance that 1 will die... no matter how big or small the squad... it doesn't change.

 

 

Did I call that one or not... told you some one would claim it was a fluke.

I didn't say it was a fluke. I proved that you actually lost out in that engagement. You lost more points worth of models than your opponent, and are trying to claim that as a good result.

 

Half a page of text doesn't change the fact.

 

Arcos = Fail in 99% of circumstances.

End of discussion.

 

Ah so you didn't read my reply...

 

So from your first post, I would need to kill at least 10 stealers to win the engagement to counter my loses...

I kill 16 stealers, 16 guants, 1 warrior, and knock off Half the wounds from 1 MC... yet according to you I still lose, interesting.

[River Black]

The chance of them dying to holy rage is the same chance as a PG or PC has of getting hot.

If you are so frightened of that chance, why are you not against plasma for the same reason?

 

Well its not the same odds. You get a 3+ armor save vs ges hot which significantly lowers the risk of losing a guy.