Arco Flagellants

[ValourousHeart]

+4inv with 4Tand 1W means they die to small weapon fire

 

They are T5 not T4. And so they are not easily killed by small arms (IG require 6s and MEQ require 5+)

Yes it is only a 4+ save... but they are less likely to be wounded than people give them credit for.

 

 

The chance of them dying to holy rage is the same chance as a PG or PC has of getting hot.

If you are so frightened of that chance, why are you not against plasma for the same reason?

 

Well its not the same odds. You get a 3+ armor save vs gets hot which significantly lowers the risk of losing a guy.

 

I remembered that after I posted. But consider this... a PG rolls a 1 and not only does the model risk dying, he also misses the target.

If an arco squad rolls a 6 during the movement phase, they lose one of their number yes, but the rest move 12" with the last 6 ignoring terrain.

This gives them an 18" assault range, and if nothing is that close, they run.

 

In the CC phase, if an arco rolls a 6 he dies... but only after he swings 6 times, 7 if he charged (which is highly likely).

 

Every other unit in the game that has a chance to wound itself with its own weapon, misses the enemy with the hits it inflicts upon itself.

Arco are unique and deadly in the fact that they still get to hit even in death.

[Eltnot]

So from your first post, I would need to kill at least 10 stealers to win the engagement to counter my loses...

I kill 16 stealers, 16 guants, 1 warrior, and knock off Half the wounds from 1 MC... yet according to you I still lose, interesting.

How many of those models did the arcos damage again? Oh wait, that's right, they got smashed.

 

Back to the OP's question of can they work in a semi competitive list, the answer is no.

 

They can be fun to play.

They can be fun to paint.

They will rarely win you games.

 

You can do amazing things when the dice roll in your favour, but more often than not, they will die without killing much in return. I am aware of the fact that a unit does not need to kill it's own points to be worth taking, but arcos:

Can't be controlled very well and so can't be positioned appropriately to deny areas of the battlefield (You can't hold them back if you need to after activating the drugs).

They can't capture objectives.

They can be easily led away from where they need to be by a smart opponent (here chase this empty rhino around or these gun drones that came off my devilfish, or this unit of Guardian Jetbikes).

They struggle to deal with mechanised opponents (They have problems hurting tanks and can be easily avoided or simply led around by the enemy on a wild goose chase).

 

They generally only work well when you are either:

A. Really lucky.

B. Your opponent doesn't know what they can do or how to deal with them.

 

Neither of the above makes a good choice for any kind of competitive list (despite how much ValorousHeart tries to argue otherwise).

[ValourousHeart]

Whoa, someone is taking this really personally. Time to cut back on the cool-aid. And you still haven't read my post have you... I clearly stated earlier that they killed the 4 stealers that didn't die to the HF from the PE. The arcos certainly didn't get smashed, it was the stealers that died.

 

But you are right, in the tiny world where we only have the two options you listed (lucky and dumb) arcos are a bad idea. However, I prefer to operate in a world where I assume that I am dealing with competent players, who are capable of learning something new. I also assumed that this is a world that the other players in this forum might also consider the better place to live. But I should know better than to assume.

 

Back in 3rd when the codex came out I had trouble using arcos and PE. WH and SoB before them never had a unit like the 3rd ed Chaos Cav Deamon Prince... a 200 pt model that could single handed wipe out a 2000 pt army. We have always had to use synergy to achieve victory. So I kept trying arcos with different units to help get them across the board. Go figure, trial and error worked.

 

You made 4 points at the end of your post that I would like to counter.

 

1) Can not be controlled / positioned.

3) Can be led away by smart player.

I will field these at the same time as they really are the same complaint, you were just sneaky with the wording to make it seem like they have more faults.

 

Yes any unit with the holy rage rule (arco, repentia & penitent engines) has to move toward the closest enemy unit, and has to assault if able to. And yes that means they can be baited. So you have to learn how to direct your opponent, and not be constantly reacting to what they do. (not necessarily you Elnot, but you in the general sense). So this means that you will want them closer to the center of the board in most cases so that if they wish to draw them away, they have to get behind you as pulling them sideways will just bring them closer to other units which you will assault.

 

In most pick up games you will know what your opponent is bringing... and in a tournament you will definitely know what is in his list before you start deploying. So you will know if he has any threat units, and you will know if he has any units that can be used to bait your arcos. The trick (not really a trick, as everyone should already know this) is to deal with the units that prevent you from playing your game in addition to dealing with the units that allow your opponent to play his game. If you have lots of armor... dealing with heavy weapons squads is a priority. If you have an assault squad with a chaplain... dealing with his tarpits is a priority.

 

The same goes for Arcos. A rhino should not bait arcos for more than a single turn if even that long. WH have enough units that can deal with a rhino that this should be a non-issue. Gun drones... really... don't they move 6", assault 6"... yeah if they are close enough to bait arcos, then they are within assault range. And considering that the arcos will be close to most of my other units on my aggressive drive in, I'll probably just shoot the drones to get them out of the way... that or plant a rhino or two in the way so the arcos have to go around.

 

Now jetbikes are a bait unit that needs to be dealt with. But they need to be dealt with because they are a scoring unit. In an objective game, all resources go toward killing troops. Which means that if your jetbikes are baiting my arcos... then my seraphim know just where you are going to be in order to corner you. Sure you can turbo boost away... but you won't be baiting my arcos anymore. Alternatively, those jetbikes will be close to my sisters in rhinos... cause that is where my arcos are... and DG flamer goodness is just what the doctor ordered.

 

2) Can not capture objectives.

 

Neither can HQ, Elites, Fast Attack or Heavy Support units. So yes you will need troops as well. Not quite sure where you are going with this one. But seraphim and exorcists are great units in their slots that perform well and just as random in the case of the exorcist. None of the elite units in the book stand out as the hands down winner like the exorcist and seraphim do. But a T5, fast moving, pw carrying unit with lots of attacks, does counter one of the major short falls that the WH codex has.

 

4) Struggle to deal with armor.

 

Can't really argue with that. At S4 at best they can glance AV10... could wreck it if it is open topped... but most of those are fast moving and so will be hitting on 6's. Best bet is to not to rely on arcos to deal with armor. (kind of obvious really) However, as i said earlier, WH don't really lack for a way do deal with armor, what they lack is a solid CC element.

 

Arcos allow a WH army to apply a new level of pressure to an opponent which works very well with the basic mech sister list. We have our Exorcists in the back ground pounding away at the enemy tanks, cracking them open. We have our Seraphim moving up the flanks dealing with side elements and flankers, making good use of their hit and run ability. We have our Rhino mounted sister and dominion units that can bring lots of pain with a well timed DG rapid fire / flaming. And finally we have our arcos which can charge in and clean up any survivors that didn't die in the shooting phase, preventing at least 1 unit from charging back at our sisters. Try it, it works.

 

Arcos can win in a competitive setting... I think 3rd place in a tournament is a respectable showing considering the "weak" list I brought. And a record of 2/0/1 at that tournament clearly disproves your claim that they can't win.

[Eltnot]

1) Can not be controlled / positioned.

3) Can be led away by smart player.

You talked here about dealing with the threats that will cause your arcos to move away from where you need them to be here. The trouble is that the enemy is doing the same. They look at your army, work out what they need to deal with as a priority and deal with it. Here is where the arcos fall down.

 

They are T5, have a 4++ save and can't ride in a transport which means that you cannot protect them. What about putting them behind your rhinos or in cover you say? Well I'll explain how your opponent deals with that.

 

The majority of WH armies come in two varieties, Mech and foot slogging:

 

Foot Slogging

Given that your force is mainly comprised of infantry, you are trying to overwhelm the enemy's anti infantry firepower by having too many bodies. Arco flagelants don't help you here as they reduce your total body count (you can get another squad of battle sisters for the price of three arcos and the requisite priest). Despite that you might still field them, but you still can't protect them. The enemy can shoot them since they have no tanks to hide behind and cover is no benefit as they already have a 4++ save. On top of that all of the enemy's heavy weapons which have no decent targets will target the next best thing, a high toughness unit which just happens to be those arco flagelants.

 

Mechanised

Here you do have a chance of hiding them, by placing them behind your tanks as they advance so that the enemy literally can't see them. There are however a few options for them to deal with the maniacs.

 

Barrage weapons - As these guys will be the only infantry, or close to it deployed, any anti infantry weapons that can reach them will target them. Any mortars/biovores etc will be targeting them and thinning their numbers without having to worry about LoS.

 

Furious Charge/High Initiative - More and more armies have access to units that have or can get a higher initiative than 4. This isn't always a problem for arcos to deal with but it does represent another thorn in their side as every casualty that you lose hurts you more than it does to the enemy.

 

Leading units - Once arcos trigger their holy rage ability, you have very little control over them (other than running them in a direction of your choice in the shooting phase). From this point on, then enemy can move a disposable unit forward to lead the arcos off in the wrong direction. Don't forget that they don't need to be within charge range, they just have to be the closest unit. Given our short ranges, the enemy probably won't lose out anyhow if they move the rest of their army back whilst moving forward one unit to lead the arcos in a new direction. Units such as gun drones, eldar jetbikes, and rhinos are all good examples here. In your next turn, the arcos will have to move toward that unit, forcing you to either leave them unprotected, or to move the rhino shield away from the main enemy force, either way the enemy wins.

 

Board Control

Arcos don't do a very good job of this as once you use them to take and are (using their stimulants), you can no longer stop them from chasing the enemy. This might seem like a good thing except when the enemy is out of charge range, but moving the arcos out towards them brings them into range of lots of rapid fire weapons. This is not ideal for you, and is also a common problem with repentia. There is a chance that having crazy arcos running around is still a good thing, but a smart opponent can usually ensure it isn't.

 

2) Can not capture objectives.

I should have been clearer here. Arcos can't capture objectives as lots of other units can't, but they aren't ideal for contesting objectives either. Other units are. The fact that they have to charge off means that you can't leave them to sit on an objective to protect it from the enemy like other units can. The enemy can then simply bait the arcos with one unit and move up to take the objective with another. Killing the bait unit doesn't win you the game, contesting and preventing the enemy from capturing does.

 

Arcos can win in a competitive setting... I think 3rd place in a tournament is a respectable showing considering the "weak" list I brought. And a record of 2/0/1 at that tournament clearly disproves your claim that they can't win.

 

The results of a single tournament doesn't prove a lot, especially one that only went for three games. As someone who not only plays in tournaments regularly, but has also been running them for years now, I understand that a seeding system for tournaments only really starts to show effect from game three to four onwards. It's quite common for people to win their first two to three games before getting smashed for the rest once they seeding settles in and starts to match player more accurately. If you had four wins out of five or six games, then that would be meaningful, but two out of three often comes down to getting lucky matchups.

 

At the end of the day, the ability of arcos to do well comes down to your opponent doing what you want him to do, or you getting very lucky. Taking a unit based on your opponent screwing up is not a way to do well in a competitive environment.

 

All this being said, if you want to use them and try to get the most out of them, here are some suggestions:

1. Use rhinos and other tanks to shield their approach.

2. Hold off activating their stims for as long as possible. The less you lose to drugs, the more you have when you need them. That said you don't want them to get charged without their stims either.

3. Charging them into units by themselves is worse than charging in alongside another unit. The more you can tie up their models with basic sisters, the more attacks can be soaked up, and the less that can be directed at the arcos. Remember that a model must strike at the unit that it is in base to base contact with, so charging in 10 battle sisters into the marine squad along with the arcos, will reduce the amount of models that can strike the arcos and the sisters can rely on their armour to keep casualties low.

4. You have to take a priest to take arcos. Most squad's performance will be degraded by the priest but there are some tolerable candidates:

Small Celestian squads with meltaguns won't be using their bolters often as they're hunting tanks.

Repentia benefit greatly from a priest (assuming you're taking them).

Small units of Storm Troopers with Grenade Launchers are also ideal candidates.

Keep the priest cheap, he's not a good fighter to begin with and is already expensive. If I take one, it's usually just with a bolt pistol, close combat weapon and maybe carapace armour which brings him in at either 41, or 46 points.

4. You don't get any benefit by putting them in cover (unless you're facing grey knights) so don't bother. Either they're out of sight, or not generally.

 

That's about it really.

[melvinmcsnatch]

Gettin 6 arcos for $10 is a victory in my book, no matter how they play.

 

Your army list forms your general strategy which is modifed by deployment then tweaked as you react to your opponent. But Arcos don't react. This is not a matter of the commander's level of competence, it's built into the unit's rules. Their stats and point cost don't overcome the lack of control. I've had great games with arcos, penitent engines and repentia before. But the uncertainty loses battles more often than it wins them.

 

My advice would always be to drop the 200+ point squad and buy another Exorcist.

[Eddie Orlock]

My best experience with the Arco's was in some dubiously legal games in early fifth when I had two full squads them screen my forty zealots spaced at max coherency to deny excess template casuaties. The theroy was to present my opponent with the prospect of shooting at T 5 flagellents, or letting my horde of pitifully armoured infantry gain a serious survival enhancement from the screen and potentially the chance to actually charge units pinned in place by the flagellents. As they were four up invulnerable, cover was only a hinderance to their operation, and their presence greatly simplified the deployment of the fratris rabble that comprised the bulk of the force.