DA in the Future

[Valkyrion]

DA could easily be sandwiched into the current SM dex with just three characters - Azrael, Belial and Sammael, with Belial and Sammael having Chapter Tactics that turn bikes and terminators into troops and makes them fearless, skilled riders and so on.

 

Deathwing and Ravenwing are the only differences between them and a codex chapter and they are only buffed Terminators and Bikers. The Templars, Blood Angels and Space Wolves are all completely different to a codex force and need/deserve their own codex.

 

It would be better for the Iron Hands to get their own codex and do away with Dark Angels as a separate force, as Iron Hands are the only wacked out chapter that can't be properly represented on the tabletop, and don't even have a special character.

 

I don't mean to belittle Dark Angels or their players, I like the chapter and their background is probably the best Loyal Legion background in the game, but from a ruleset they are easily replaceable/removable.

[ellis_esquire]

As much as I hate to agree with you volkyrie on da not having sufficient ruleset differentiation to justify our own new book, that doesn't mean that I don't think it could. with a bit of imagination injected like our fellow brothers have displayed so Passionately In projects unforgiven and redemption.. I'm just saying that gw are gonna have to crank up the unforgiven quite a few degrees to make it worthy.

 

Why not present the new codex in two halves for example with print turning upside down at the half way point (or later) to begin the fallen rules. From a sales perspective this might be a book that chaos players might also want to pick up! Come on gw the ideas are all here!

[Valkyrion]

I'm sure the next DA codex will come with new shinies like their Blood Angel brothers, the equivolent of Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinor (though I really hope not), new tank or dread variant or something.

Maybe 'new' organisation of the Deathwing and Ravenwing or something.

 

But as it stands now, the DA dex is fairly redundant save for Terminators as troops - something that could have been done in the current SM dex.

[Isiah]

But as it stands now, the DA dex is fairly redundant save for Terminators as troops - something that could have been done in the current SM dex.

 

And our special named characters? Deathwing Assault? Unique RAS squadron layouts with scoring speeders?

[Valkyrion]

Things like that could again be added with the inclusion of Chapter Tactics based on the special characters that I said in post 26.

 

Had the DA never had a codex before there would be little call for one now, they are easily representable on the tabletop using Codex SM, something that BT's, BA's and SW's can't do.

 

Compare the 2nd ed Codex Angels of Death to Codex Ultramarines - there is hardly any difference. They were more different in 3rd ed because they could take more plasma and had a unique special rule. Now they really are just Codex Marines with slightly modified Terminators and Bike Squads.

[LardO'Blood]

But as it stands now, the DA dex is fairly redundant save for Terminators as troops - something that could have been done in the current SM dex.

Is this a hint that GW does want to release a future DA codex?

[Deathwing]

Things like that could again be added with the inclusion of Chapter Tactics based on the special characters that I said in post 26.

 

Had the DA never had a codex before there would be little call for one now, they are easily representable on the tabletop using Codex SM, something that BT's, BA's and SW's can't do.

 

Compare the 2nd ed Codex Angels of Death to Codex Ultramarines - there is hardly any difference. They were more different in 3rd ed because they could take more plasma and had a unique special rule. Now they really are just Codex Marines with slightly modified Terminators and Bike Squads.

 

If using 2nd ed Codex Angels of Death as a reference then the Blood Angels should not have been given their own book either. Just include a special chaplain (Lemartes) that unlocks Death Company and Dante to make Assault Squads troops. The Furioso and Baal could then be rolled into the dreadnought and predator entry as an option to allow other chapters the use of it (I'm ignoring the Fast vehicle rule as it didn't exist for Blood Angel vehicles outside of their 5th edition book, same thing with the deep striking land raiders)

 

The Blood Angels and Dark Angels are blessed to have a wealth of background information (something most of the other first founding chapters do not have) to justify their existence outside of C: SM and if the trend with the Blood Angels continues, the Dark Angels will get enough to make them different from C: SM yet be similar enough to appear like C: SM.

 

Though I do agree that if we are strictly comparing our 4th edition book to the 5th edition C: SM, there's not much to differentiate us aside from a few special characters and the DW and RW. But that's not the point of a new book. A new book would differentiate us from C: SM much like how the new C: BA differentiated them from C: SM. Hopefully our projects catch the eye of GW and they can push the Dark Angels book a little further up on their production schedule.

[Tanhausen]

Just thinking out loud...what if in the new DA codex they moved away from Index Astartes rules? I'm sure non-DA and many DA would scream saying that the first legion has always been codex compliant but...that would probably be an interesting twist and justify significant divergences with UM and so.

[ellis_esquire]

I like that Tanhausen - That would be fresh. To take that one step further, that the DA consider Guiilimans Codex Astartes as something akin to a false pariah.

 

Ie We were the first legion, we were there so we know how a space marine legion should look, and it looks like... [insert new Dar Angels structure).

[Tanhausen]

The thing is... I'm a bit tired of being considered a "oh, more power armour with a couple stupid rules".

 

Obviously, we carry PA and we have a main "theme" to Imperium and so... but what prevents GW from being bold?

 

I'm more or less following the Unforgiven thread... but fail to contribute because I feel it a bit ... "disperse" (its hard to put a word to it: I respect and defend all who make a huge effort to carry it on, I mean no offense).

 

I think they are being too mild (keep forgetting which name is for update and which for new codex).

 

Why not going all the way out?

 

For example (warning, these might make no sense):

 

- Prepare the Blow

We could get markers, just like DE do now or Sisters have been having for LONG years, that improve our squads. Be it giving our units "TL effect" for 1 assault (since they studied the enemy in depth) or a "hold and shoot" for squads that remained stationary in previous turn

 

- Double HW in specialist teams

Or even allow for ALL the models to go for heavy weapons. Exceeding? I'd like to see someone take 215 points of terminators and add another 150 points to it... and see it fall to 1 single vindicator pie.

 

- Assault when consolidating

That was a standard rule back in 4th and it was harsh but not broken

 

- Land and strike

When DS, allow to assault

 

How to do these is not THAT important (that would go in the other subforum)... but I really think the new DA codex should give a MAJOR twist to its current situation (new fluff and organization-wise).

 

Think about it... if we are to remain the same, just with "up to date" stats/gears...that sounds underwhelming for me, tbh.

 

End of rant... sorry ;)

[LardO'Blood]

I understand Tanhausen, I wish the Unforgiven project was much less conservative.

But imagine 10 terminators with TH/SS and CML :D

That vindicator would be completely screwed over from 20 missile shots. Not to mention the assault!

The 730ish points would be so worth it!

[Tanhausen]

I was thinking more in the lines of keeping DW termis at 5 men and CML only 1 shot... but still, that 730 point unit would fire a HECK of S8 shots... to 1 target. Imagine what would happen when DE came close and did rapid fire + assault, or nids swamping the unit... there are always ways to hamper an expensive unit.

[LardO'Blood]

Sorry to rain on your parade guys but this thread is not for discussion on what a new codex will have or plans for a B&C codex, we already have one. This thread is to talk about potential upcoming DA releases and the like.

[jimbo1701]

Would definitely like to see a jetbike unit and some updated SC models. Also, DAs would be an ideal army to release a plastic terminator character kit with. The scout sergeant guy as a metal upgrade character too. DAs already have a few chapter specific items and FW mortis drad parts so other than updated rules and army lists I'm not sure they need much more model wise.

[Isiah]

Now they really are just Codex Marines with slightly modified Terminators and Bike Squads.

 

Remember you are comparing our 4th Ed Codex to the 5th Ed C:SM. There's no reason at all why our new 5th (or 6th) Ed DA Codex shouldn't be any less divergent – from C:SM – or any less characterful than the SWs or BAs.

 

Cheers

I

[Bartali]

I wonder if we'll get an updated faq before a 5th edition codex ?

 

Shame the just updated 5th edition rulebook faq didn't clarify turbo boost during scout move for Ravenwing bikers

[LardO'Blood]

I'm just hoping we aren't a test bed.

I won't mind being one of the earlier 6th edition codexes even if it means no 5th edition codex.

[Raibaru]

It's not fair to pretend SW, BA, or BT are that different from codex SM and DA some how aren't.

 

Why can't BA have a special character to give a chaplain a retinue of marines with death company stats and another that makes assault marines troops?

Why can't SW have an HQ choice that doesn't count as an HQ choice that gives devestators a special rule and unlocks grey knights?

Why can't BT have an Emp Champ HQ that allows Neophytes to join Marine Squads with Scout stats with better wargear.

 

I mean when all is said and done, there's no need for more then one SM codex other than the simple fact they had their own in 2nd edition.

 

The problem with DA right now is the stuff that made them stand out is now given freely to nearly every SM chapter and that's why they don't feel deserving of their own book. DA will probably be the hardest book for GW to redo at this point simply because they've made them redundant with the new SM, SW, BA, and likely BT codex that will come before them.

[pueriexdeus]

It's not fair to pretend SW, BA, or BT are that different from codex SM and DA some how aren't.

 

Why can't BA have a special character to give a chaplain a retinue of marines with death company stats and another that makes assault marines troops?

Why can't SW have an HQ choice that doesn't count as an HQ choice that gives devestators a special rule and unlocks grey knights?

Why can't BT have an Emp Champ HQ that allows Neophytes to join Marine Squads with Scout stats with better wargear.

 

I mean when all is said and done, there's no need for more then one SM codex other than the simple fact they had their own in 2nd edition.

 

The problem with DA right now is the stuff that made them stand out is now given freely to nearly every SM chapter and that's why they don't feel deserving of their own book. DA will probably be the hardest book for GW to redo at this point simply because they've made them redundant with the new SM, SW, BA, and likely BT codex that will come before them.

So what your saying is since GW has taken everything that made the DA the DA away, and has given it freely to other Chapters, the next DA Codex will need to be extremely divergent. Or GW needs to roll all chapters into the UM with their own special characters.

[Raibaru]

I'm not implying that if DA can't have their own codex, no one will. I'm simply stating that the amount the other chapters diverge from the C:SM book really isn't that hard to duplicate with the standard SM Codex and a special character or 2.

[Isiah]

But the point is:– it's not just the rules. It's the characterful back history too that sets the 'mood' for each of those chapters and thus builds large bases of devotees. Can't seriously expect the BA, BT, SW and BA's fluff to be as comprehensively and extensively contained within one massive Codex !!! Something would have to go for sure.

 

Cheers

I

[Lord_Hail]

Totaly agree, we are a truely unquie chapter when it comes to back story. And less face it GW don't want terms for troops for codex marines, also i think the kahn covers the use of biker troops (thus reducing the love for sammy).

[Ardune]

Why is it everyone looks at our bland, watered-down 4th ed. codex as "that's how DA are supposed to be?" What I think people are not seeing is that the DA were the failed prototype for a muted, less-divergent ruleset as a whole. If GW had continued with that development style, you can count on the fact that the other codices would have had a lot more in common with C:SM than they do now. Just look at the previous BA pdf update, that was much less divergent than their current codex by a lot. I'm sure that it will take just a little imagination to come up ideas that could make C:DA "worthy" of a seperate codex quite easily. Hell, they could invent pure craziness like Deep-Striking Landraiders (oh wait...).

 

In the end, the reason DA get their own codex is because we have a reasonably seperate model range. And I don't see this changing any time soon. In the future, I'm sure they will invent absurd rules simply to push the DA release along with its associated models. Honestly, we have previously been presented as the "superior firepower" legion as well as the home of the DW/RW and I would not be shocked if we get new rules/units that revolve around these themes.

[Isiah]

Why is it everyone looks at our bland, watered-down 4th ed. codex as "that's how DA are supposed to be?"

 

Hmmm I'm not sure anyone's saying that are they? I'm certainly not.

 

Cheers

I

[FerociousBeast]

Those who think the DA codex should be rolled into the SM codex are essentially making that argument, Isiah.

 

And to them I say, "Nonsense." What is is not what will be. It is neither necessary nor will it continue into the future. GW will give the Dark Angels the treatment they gave the Blood Angels this year and all such criticisms will stop.

 

My only fear is that when they do so, they may not get the Dark Angels "right." I really think they botched the BA codex. And I do not care for Mat Ward.