DA in the Future

[Tanhausen]

BA botched in fluff or in rules?

 

I think we have good fluff now... but also that we need a radical codex next time, something to blow peoples mind, not because they are over the top but because they really change the current game situation.

 

But in the best case, thats two years away... though the work you guys do in the Unforgiven/Redeption area is going to help for sure!

[Isiah]

Yep good summary Tanhausen

[Lord_Hail]

I belive that when we get a "new codex" that GW will unveil a TDA company master and more then likly a rescult or newer termy box set. Let's face it ravenwings box is cool enough, company vets won't change, maybe scouts with plasma and as a troop choice...

[Ardune]

Hmmm I'm not sure anyone's saying that are they? I'm certainly not.

 

FB beat me to it. Anyone who thinks we should be rolled into C:SM is making that argument.

 

In the end, while our rules might not be that special (right now), our models are. As probably the most divergent range from the regular space marines, we are pretty much guaranteed to get a codex since GW needs to push the models.

[VardenV2]

I think that DA getting their own rule book is justifiable (although many of my friends disagree), because their characters and history are so rich and diverse. My only gripe with the DA codex is its place in line in comparison to other codices. We were at the end of the line for updates in 4th and did well until the new 5th edition books started coming out. Now we may get a book in 2012 (?) which will still put us at the end of the line if a new rulebook comes out in 2013... so we will get maybe a year and a half of glory and then be out of date again. Whereas an army like SW or Orks will then be in prime place for an update maybe because they will have been 4ish years old.

 

I think that GW can definitely push models using a new DA codex. So many other 'vanilla' chapters love to use DA models for conversions because, well, they are COOL! I think if they take a strong approach like they did with BA and give them a good grouping of HQ characters, special squads (DA and RW) and a few other rules that put them over the edge of 'vanilla' marines we stand a good chance.

 

Failing all of these, I'd like a nice little mini-dex update. You know a "DA tactical squads use the C:SM rules. All wargear described by C:DA is the same as C:SM etc" I like the mini-dex that was used in 3.5 (I think). It kept things fair and together. Oh well, I will still proudly play my DA and do whatever I can with them. Now they are a much more challenging army to play but I can still shock some C:SM and Space Wolf players with the lethality of DA if you play em right. (Nothing quite as satisfying as melting that cheese-ball SW hero with multi melta and plasma ravenwing shots as they zoom by). :lol:

[exsulis81]

With the latest rumors regarding Grey knight terminators it is really interesting me to see what GW will do to the Deathwing.....

 

"Grey Knights will be see the return of the 2 wound terminator. These new elite terminators will have 2 wounds and FNP and access to all the upgrades and options of all GKT in the codex. To make things more interesting one special character can make these terminators troop choices"

 

The rumor did say that they would be SM terminator priced. So those bad boys could be between 40-45 pts. :)

[Isiah]

"Grey Knights will be see the return of the 2 wound terminator. These new elite terminators will have 2 wounds and FNP and access to all the upgrades and options of all GKT in the codex. To make things more interesting one special character can make these terminators troop choices"

 

The rumor did say that they would be SM terminator priced. So those bad boys could be between 40-45 pts. :D

 

Wow!! Can't see that coming our way unfortunately –– it would need to retrofit C:SM for starters (our termies aren't as 'special' as GKT). But really... 2 wound GKT... mmm must follow those rumours more closely.

 

Cheers

I

[Ardune]

Wow!! Can't see that coming our way unfortunately –– it would need to retrofit C:SM for starters (our termies aren't as 'special' as GKT). But really... 2 wound GKT... mmm must follow those rumours more closely.

 

You mean like they retrofit C:DA? I don't think "retrofit" is even in GW's vocabulary.

[Lord_Hail]

Sure it is i think us normal people call it cut and paste.

[Tanhausen]

Sure it is i think us normal people call it cut and paste.

 

If you change the font and the header its called "revamping" xD

 

Terminators with 2 wounds? and maybe T5? ;)

[Lord_Hail]

and twin linked plasma storm bolters... just joking.

[pueriexdeus]

and twin linked plasma storm bolters... just joking.

Actually Rapid Fire Storm Bolters would be right up our alley.

[exsulis81]

It wouldn't be retro-active but a new starting point for all terminators.

[Tanhausen]

And getting special ammo or maybe a combi or two...

[Frater Uriah]

With the latest rumors regarding Grey knight terminators it is really interesting me to see what GW will do to the Deathwing.....

 

"Grey Knights will be see the return of the 2 wound terminator. These new elite terminators will have 2 wounds and FNP and access to all the upgrades and options of all GKT in the codex. To make things more interesting one special character can make these terminators troop choices"

 

The rumor did say that they would be SM terminator priced. So those bad boys could be between 40-45 pts. :P

 

This would turn the volume from 11 to 12 :P That said, the Deathwing are supposed to be the pre-eminent TDA-armoured shock troops in the Adeptus Astartes, next to the Grey Knights themselves (who aren't per se a normal Space Marine Chapter). I think it should be appropriate that we get the best-equipped, toughest and most experienced Terminators in the game, at the expense of the Sternguard and Vanguards that other Chapters get, that we would never have. We should also be able to field the most options, with the greatest flexibility, for armament. So, if you want a 10-man squad armed with combi-bolters and power swords, what's stopping you, besides the number of points it'll cost you to field it?

 

In the end, who cares if we get deep-striking Land Raiders if our First Company is returned to its place as the foremost TDA-armoured force in the Imperium? If Belial still unlocks the Deathwing as Troops, GW will have to come up with something equally awe-inspiring to make anybody play Greenwing for anything but small-points games.

[Isiah]

With the latest rumors regarding Grey knight terminators it is really interesting me to see what GW will do to the Deathwing.....

 

"Grey Knights will be see the return of the 2 wound terminator. These new elite terminators will have 2 wounds and FNP and access to all the upgrades and options of all GKT in the codex. To make things more interesting one special character can make these terminators troop choices"

 

The rumor did say that they would be SM terminator priced. So those bad boys could be between 40-45 pts. :P

 

This would turn the volume from 11 to 12 :P That said, the Deathwing are supposed to be the pre-eminent TDA-armoured shock troops in the Adeptus Astartes, next to the Grey Knights themselves (who aren't per se a normal Space Marine Chapter). I think it should be appropriate that we get the best-equipped, toughest and most experienced Terminators in the game, [...]

 

The problem is though our terminator armour is no better than any other Astartes terminator armour. I see no justification in the DW getting 2 wound FNP. Remember that the Aegis termy armour worn by the GK is a totally different kettle of fish hence why they can change them so radically.

 

Cheers

I

[Frater Uriah]

The problem is though our terminator armour is no better than any other Astartes terminator armour. I see no justification in the DW getting 2 wound FNP. Remember that the Aegis termy armour worn by the GK is a totally different kettle of fish hence why they can change them so radically.

 

Cheers

I

 

Quite true. I'd be curious what, beyond the rumoured statline, is otherwise entailed by the GKs.

 

Otherwise, I stick to my guns on the Deathwing's needing to be the premier Terminator unit in the galaxy. :tu:

[Isiah]

Otherwise, I stick to my guns on the Deathwing's needing to be the premier Terminator unit in the galaxy. ;)

 

Well I'm agreed there Uriah -- just needs to be done in a sensible fashion. Last thing we want to happen the is the Deathwing turning into Cheesewing ;) .

 

Cheers

I

[Frater Uriah]

Otherwise, I stick to my guns on the Deathwing's needing to be the premier Terminator unit in the galaxy. ;)

 

Well I'm agreed there Uriah -- just needs to be done in a sensible fashion. Last thing we want to happen the is the Deathwing turning into Cheesewing :P .

 

Cheers

I

Seconded. :D

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Cheese can't kill the fallen. The Fallen would eat it alive. B)

[Tanhausen]

As much as it pains me, I have to agree: our terminators don't have better TDA and they are also "only" SM... so I don't think we can justify a different statline.

 

We probably would have to go more through Universal Rules or similar in order to diferentiate them.

 

Probably doing something in the line of "Veteran of a thousan battles", giving them Prefered Enemy (in a fashion similar to Logan?).

 

Of course, I wouldn't complain of a 2W, T5 FNP terminator :P

[krewl]

I can't resist the urge...

 

I have to reply to the people who say that the DA are basically obsolete with the other codexes, and that they differ so little they could be fit into codex SM.

 

First of all, the current limitation in DA options where they are very Codex SM like (But even more limited in some ways) has already been explained.

This was a design philosophy to put an end to the even spreading (feeling of) codex creep, intended to level down and equalise SM cahpters of all variety.

Codex DA is on an equal basis with codex Chaos Space Marines and the PDF codex Blood angels. As stated reactions where not very enthusiastic, so they changed the tune for codex SM (and reactions where more enthusiastic and people loved it) so they kept going on that path.

 

So why do I think DA should fit perfectly into a new style DA codex of their own?

Look at the stuff there already is (Without even making stuff up to add like they did with teh sanguinor, TWC, Arjac Rockfist, and most SM special characters).

And then remember that we could easily add specials from successor chapters.

 

Special Characters

We have plenty, if you look at established fluff alone.

Azreal (needs only Eternal warrior and stats tweaks in line with the current SM chapter masters)

Asmodai (Guy even has a model), just needs some nice rules

Belial, basically fine, could use a buff, or more flexible wargear, but I can live with him just the way he is (Specially if he gets a 3++ storm shield option.)

Sammael, basically fine as is, perhaps allow him to join units as a normal special character, if even only bike units.

Ezekiel - Needs a lot of work, but the fluff for awsome mind powers/ fear based/misdirection is there, so good fitting powers should be no issue to come up with.

 

Special Upgrade characters

Brother bethor bearer off the 3 sacred standerds. Buy him, pick one special banner with in game effects.

Scout sargeant Namaan (he's dead like Eldrad, but that doesn't seem to stop the space elf from showing up so why not Namaan :) ) a more CC upgrade for scouts, to not clone the Ultramarine upgrade guy.

 

DA Specific independent characters

2 types of chaplains 2 wound and 3 wound like the BA have, One is Deathwing interred (interogator chaplain) one a normal battle line chapplain.

Librarians need Ld 10 and better powers, but as said for Ezekiel, the fluff for what it should feel like is already there

 

DA special units

- Mortis pattern dreadnoughts. Not just the twin twin autocannon but also the other FW options.

- Tempest speeders

- Deathwing, should always stay an army in intself if wanted. More flexibility in weapons and updated wargear and you are set for a great army.

- Ravenwing, should always stay an army in intself if wanted. More flexibility in the speeder config in a RW troops squad, some price tweaking and you are done. Perhaps a solution to prevent the billion easy killpoints in KP missions.

- DA veteran squad, distinctly different (but still good) form vanguard/sternguard.

- DA scouts, need work in their options or synergy so they can stay in Elites but add something special to the army.

 

Other upgrades

Al wargear and prices should be brought in line.

USe the First legion as a basis idea for some rare 1 per army wargear stuff with creative effects. (like the Heavenfall blades, 1 handed S6 powerswords, they used to all be S6 like Azreals, not just the one.) A plasma blaster could keep the 3rd edition plasma freaks idea alive, the idea's and options are all just there!

 

General "nice"[(Dunno how to spell it)

DA can be the more stoic stand firm in the face of danger army, something like stubborn would fit very well as a normal DA marine chapter tactic replacement.

If you add some special rules or wargear/heavy/special placement you could easily make DA the army for people who like a greenwing stand an shooty army, giving DA another Nice they fill, like the All termie army and the all biker army. (On a side note,

 

 

And just look at the different successor chapters you could use for fleshing out some slightly different style of play special units.

 

Or a Decent of angels type rule like the BA got for jumppackers, on Deathwing termies (To replace DWA, lets not go for the poverpowered cheese whish list here. ;) ). In short, ideas enough for a full fleshed out codex with a different feel from SM, BA and SW.

[exsulis81]

I can't resist the urge...

 

I have to reply to the people who say that the DA are basically obsolete with the other codexes, and that they differ so little they could be fit into codex SM.

 

First of all, the current limitation in DA options where they are very Codex SM like (But even more limited in some ways) has already been explained.

This was a design philosophy to put an end to the even spreading (feeling of) codex creep, intended to level down and equalise SM cahpters of all variety.

Codex DA is on an equal basis with codex Chaos Space Marines and the PDF codex Blood angels. As stated reactions where not very enthusiastic, so they changed the tune for codex SM (and reactions where more enthusiastic and people loved it) so they kept going on that path.

 

Excepting that the DA codex was the worst out of those 3 by a long long shot.

[Order_of_the_Dragon]

I am to the point where I would be happy with a seperate release of just Dark Angels fluff and they could just add the special characters/units/whatever there and not have to publish a brand new codex ... but then if they go that far they might as well :P

 

I just wish they would update the FAQ to say we can use the wargear in Codex Space Marines. I can live with the current codex except for the less effective wargear, especially since theres no valid rules why they would use it.

 

"Hey Master, um, the ultramarines have some shiny new versions of our guns over there think we'll get them?"

 

"Um, no."

[Lord_Hail]

tecnicly they did, you just need your opponent's permission witch is a death wish in this game... (unless you got some good friends)

I think they are holding us back till they get ready to redo the termys and do a plastic termy captin with all the dakka..