Tactical Squads

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I was thinking for a bit and came up with this:

5 Man Bolter Shooting Squad vs 5 Man Bolter Assaulting Squad Both vs Guard

1. Attacks

Slight win with the assaulting squad

10-11

 

2. Hitting

Both hit on an 3+

 

3. Wounding

Both wound on a 3+

 

4. Save

Big win for shooting

No save vs 5+

 

Also note that the guard get a chance to kill you in assault

 

Same Squads vs Marines

 

1. Attacks

Same as before

 

2. Hitting

Win for shooting

3+ vs 4+

 

3. Wounding

Equal chance

 

4. Saves

Equal

 

 

 

2.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Alright I mathhammered it:

Shooting vs Guard

4.9 deaths

 

Assaulting vs guard

3.773 deaths

 

 

Shooting vs marines

1.05 deaths

 

Assaulting vs Marines

0.825 deaths

 

Again, note that in assault, the enemy can kill you.

[Mysticaria]

1- You can't sweeping advance someone with shooting. Assault allows you to kill entire units without actually killing all the models in the unit.

2- By assaulting you can get an extra 6" of movement plus a possible d6 consolidation move. Against guard, this is awesome as it gets you closer to killing more guys.

3- Don't forget you can fire bolt pistols, flamers, meltaguns, plasmapistols AND assault. Bolt pistol is same as bolter but 1 shot. It's not all about rapid fire you know.

4- Sometimes you want to be in combat on their turn so you don't get shot. If the enemy doesn't break you get a free round of safety from their shooting.

 

Against guard, you can take out much larger groups with lesser amounts of marines. Go mathhammer 5 marines versus 10 guardsmen. Don't forget to roll their morale check and escape attempts. I'm guessing that assault will start looking much more attractive.

 

-Myst

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

You have an excellent point. I'll hammer it out tomorrow and see what I come up with.

[Meatman]

Against dreads if you have 2 squads both with a fist, and the squads don't have melta.

 

 

Anyway, don't forget you can fire bolt pistols before assaulting, so you do half as well as shooting before you even get in combat. And you can always use tacts to support another assault unit, extra attacks make a lot of difference, force more saves, win the combat by more, increase chance of sweeping.

[Gothical]

Yes, statistically charging may be worse, but there are a huge quantity of other factors in play than just the "mathematically-likely damage-output" for the Shooting/Close-Combat phases.

 

Sometimes you *really* don't want to be charged by a certain unit. Denying things like Furious Charge and other charge-only benefits can be a massive boost to your game as a whole, even if you are charging a unit that it would be better *mathematically* to shoot.

 

Using the extra movement of the charge/consolidation to pull your troops, which had been in the open, towards/into/behind cover is also a good idea with the enemy's shooting phase coming up.

 

The other part is that although you can inflict *less* casualties from close-combat, you can wipe out the enemy squad *more easily* as they can lose combat and be destroyed in the Sweeping Advance, rather than failing a morale check from the shooting phase.

 

Coupled to that, if you *fail* to kill/break the enemy unit with your firepower, then you are vulnerable to returned shots in the next turn - which against some targets (say...guard Veterans with 3 Plasma and a Demo Charge) can be really bad news for your Marines. Had you been in combat, the enemy is locked and can't retaliate, and neither can their nearby friends light your squad up like a Christmas tree.

 

So yeah, there are some distinct advantages to charging a unit instead of shooting it, even if you are statistically likely to cause less damage. It's not all about maths, you know <_<

[Meatman]

Also don't forget combat ignores cover, so that guard squad that sits in cover, goes to ground then gets ordered to "get back in the fight" will be annoying to shift with bolters when they have a 3+ cover save...

[thade]

Mysticaria makes some very good points. In addition, consider that the assault move that doesn't result in your squad's death may secure their contesting an objective on the last turn when they'd otherwise be unable to reach.

[Gaz1858]

Mysticaria makes some very good points. In addition, consider that the assault move that doesn't result in your squad's death may secure their contesting an objective on the last turn when they'd otherwise be unable to reach.

 

Exactly, having the option of charging neednt mean your looking to kill them. May just mean your trying to tarpit a unit or use the assault to block LOS to somewhere else.

 

Whether assaulting is a good idea or not depends entirely on each game in question.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Assaulting hides you from shooting.

 

Assaulting gets you up 6" more of movement. Pretty big considering that is almost 100% extra movement.

 

Assaulting might get you into contesting range of an Objective.

 

Assaulting might get you out of range of being assaulted by something else.

 

Assaulting stops the foe getting off their volley-&-charge, which can be especially brutal with Furious Charge.

 

Assaulting might lock up his unit that he was intending to get into contesting range of an Objective.

[Zynk Kaladin]

In the right situation with the right equipment (powerfist), assaulting could insta-kill a juicy IC.

 

Assaulting is fun.

[DarkGuard]

In the right situation with the right equipment (powerfist), assaulting could insta-kill a juicy IC.

 

Assaulting is fun.

 

In the right situation with the right equipment (meltagun), shooting can net you an IC. But I agree, assaulting is fun.

 

However, the question on whether to assault or not to assault is highly situational and dependent on the situation. It ranges from the enemy in question, any special rules they may have such as Furious Charge or Counterattack, their combat prowess, and your own shooting prowess. True the enemy can hit back in assault, but then I would prefer to get more S4 attacks in one phase (1 pistol shot and then 2 attacks on the charge) if I am pretty sure that one round of rapid firing won't kill the enemy completely, or break their combat potential completely. Sometimes its better to take the initiative off of the opponent, I've assault Khorne Bezerkers before to rob them off an additional attack, strength and initiative, the same with Orks.

 

As Zynk Kaladin had stated, it also comes down the equipment. When confronted with an MEQ squad, if I have a meltagun and a power fist I am going to single tap my pistols, shoot that melta, and charge to get extra attacks with the fist. If I have a plasma gun and a combi-plasma, I'm going to sit there and double tap my rapid fire weapons, hoping the plasma kills a few people and that the bolters will force enough saves to kill another, allowing me to receive a weakened assault.

 

So really, although it's not the best answer, but it really 'all depends'.

[Zynk Kaladin]

In the right situation with the right equipment (meltagun), shooting can net you an IC. But I agree, assaulting is fun.

 

True, but you can't specifically target an IC in a squad with a melta. Sometimes you have to get up close and personal. Like you said, it's situational.

 

Assaulting Space Wolves an honor and martial pride thing for me at least. However, when it boils down to them getting one less attack and sticking them in a time consuming CC battle sometimes it is a good idea, stupid as it seems.

[Mysticaria]

Extremely situational.... but the question was "is it ever woth assaulting?" and I think we've about covered that yeah, sometimes it really is worth it. I actually think a better question is "is it ever better to rapid fire?". I know, there are still times when it is worth it. :P Now that I'm thinking about it, the best question is probably "How do you know when to rapid fire and when to assault?"

 

-Myst

[DarkGuard]

In the right situation with the right equipment (meltagun), shooting can net you an IC. But I agree, assaulting is fun.

 

True, but you can't specifically target an IC in a squad with a melta. Sometimes you have to get up close and personal. Like you said, it's situational.

 

Assaulting Space Wolves an honor and martial pride thing for me at least. However, when it boils down to them getting one less attack and sticking them in a time consuming CC battle sometimes it is a good idea, stupid as it seems.

 

True true, and you get more hits to make up for the knack of these ICs having invulnerable saves.

 

And I agree with you there, there's nothing more fearsome and honourable then seeing your Marines charge into glorious assault. I'm a C:SM player, with my Chapter being Dark Angels Successors. The other day I had a very horrible squad of Striking Scorpians which has taken out my Sternguard and Libby (with help of Doom of course). In the end, after some agonising moments of indecision I decided to do the knightly, Space Marine thing and get them out of the Rhino, and power into assault. Knocked them and a War Walker out in two turns of close combat, before going on to crunch a Fire Prism in assault. That was a good feeling, with Marines being Marines, up close and personal :(.

 

Now that I'm thinking about it, the best question is probably "How do you know when to rapid fire and when to assault?"

 

I think this is an excellent question, and it is one that torments me at least once every game, and I'll tend to get it wrong once every game. It comes down simply to things like objectives being contested or needed to be contested, opponent's assault capabilities, armour saves, cover saves, your own assault capabilities. In fact there is too much that I don't think you can write a guide, though going with your instinct is probably a good thing to say.

[Warprat]

The biggest reason I play an all foot army is to learn the game mechanics of individual squads, specifically Tac squads. When to stand still and shoot. When to move and rapid fire. When to assault, and with how many specials. When to stay in cover. How to manuver around cover. How to avoid being seen. When to run, etc...

 

I wanted to become a better Tactition. I have always been a good Strategist, but just an average tactition. Getting back into 40K, I figured the best way to improve this might be with the Black Reach set. I figured that it had all the elements needed, and maybe I just needed to learn the basics. Really learn the basics. Like I have never known them before. No special units or tricks. No crutches. Just good honest playing...

 

So I did the unthinkable for me. I took 4 bare bones Tactical squads, 2 bare bones Tactical Terminator squads (without heavies), a dreadnought and 1 or 2 generic leaders. The first thing I learned is that a walking army does not play like a mechanized army, and got my butt owned by my Tau opponent (who has all the bells and whistles). Devestationally owned... Appocallypically owned...

 

But I didn't give up, and learned many new things. Playing with four Tactical squads gave me lots of experience. Like how much fire it takes to destroy my power armor squads. When to expose myself to fire, and when to hide. When to mass my forces and assault. How to time my assaults, etc... I also learned how to fight with Tactical Termies and make them effective, minus Land Raider or heavy weapon. I very gradually switched out weapons and tried different combos. I changed out the missile launchers for plasma caanons. I learned a lot, and started tying, then winning. Then my Tau opponent switched to Space Wolves.

 

That made me rethink my tactics completely. Things changed from assualt the shooty to shoot the assaulty. I was happy! This was exactly what I wanted, a chance to use my Space Marines vs. two completely opposite armies and win with it. I tried Combat Squads for the first time, and I learned how to use the combi-flamer, flamer in an aggressive fashion. While I also learned how fun it was to plasma cannon Marines. Eventually I added cyclones to my Terminators. Then I tried different Dreadnoughts. I tied most games, lost some, won some. About even... which is what I like.

 

I feel that I have finally learned the basics of squads, for the most part. Still making a mistake here and there, but no big deal. Just part of the learning experience... And I'm pretty excited, because I am going to start adding some mobility to my army and expand it's capabilities. I am going to try using Scout squads, Drop Pods and Rhinos. All those models I have sitting around in boxes will finally start being used. Again, slowly switching things out here and there. I might even try using a Predator or Vindicator.

 

What I found, is that every unit has capabilities. Even lowly units like Tactical squads and Tactical Terminators with just power fists and storm bolters. The key is in learning to unlock thier potential. When used correctly, these units can do far better than you would ever think possible. They can exceed your expectations.

 

Warprat ;)

[waaanial00]

Dont forget that assault allows you to inflict damage in both yours and your opponents turn. Ok they take damage in both themselves however you are making twice the amount of impact to the enemy than you would be doing through shooting alone.

 

Add in the fact that whilst you are in combat you cannot be shot at or moved around the board. Similarly the unit you are engaged with cannot just walk away or take its attention away from you.

 

Finally some squads have damn fancy guns which they cant operate whilst engaged in hand to hand. Sometimes making a noble sacrifice in the name of the bigger picture is better.

 

Closing thoughts - Just because you arent killing the enemy as fast as you could, doesnt mean you arent winning the larger battle

[shatter]

Moving with the intention to assault (without shooting) only one end of a strung out unit can reduce their return attacks, still generate a win and possible sweeping advance with next to no damage taken as maybe 2/3 of the enemy unit can't make it to 2" with pile in. If one is trying to tar-pit, this is a solid option.

 

I've used this several times with dante attached to assault termies for HnR's 'free movement'. While tactical marines are not terminators with HnR, the option to assault with them in this fashion is the same. In fact, it'll often work better for tacticals as who is going to expect one to go for anything other than rapid-fire to the face or a straight-up assault?

[Mysticaria]

Moving with the intention to assault (without shooting) only one end of a strung out unit can reduce their return attacks, still generate a win and possible sweeping advance with next to no damage taken as maybe 2/3 of the enemy unit can't make it to 2" with pile in. If one is trying to tar-pit, this is a solid option.

 

Sounds like Tyranid strategy to me. :D They try to limit models in combat on turn one, so that combat is drawn, and then when everyone piles in on the enemy turn they win by a lot and get to consolidate and assault again without being shot up.

 

-Myst

[Tanhausen]

"Smart... very smart!"

[Wildfire]

1- You can't sweeping advance someone with shooting. Assault allows you to kill entire units without actually killing all the models in the unit.

2- By assaulting you can get an extra 6" of movement plus a possible d6 consolidation move. Against guard, this is awesome as it gets you closer to killing more guys.

3- Don't forget you can fire bolt pistols, flamers, meltaguns, plasmapistols AND assault. Bolt pistol is same as bolter but 1 shot. It's not all about rapid fire you know.

4- Sometimes you want to be in combat on their turn so you don't get shot. If the enemy doesn't break you get a free round of safety from their shooting.

 

Against guard, you can take out much larger groups with lesser amounts of marines. Go mathhammer 5 marines versus 10 guardsmen. Don't forget to roll their morale check and escape attempts. I'm guessing that assault will start looking much more attractive.

 

-Myst

 

5- You can assault more than one unit at a time, unlike shooting.

6- You can keep fighting in his turn (combat happens at twice the speed of shooting)

7- You keep his unit from moving and/or shooting in his turn (preventing him from killing your landraider with a meltagun)

8- Can target enemy ICs without wiping out the rest of the squad first

9- There are no cover saves in CC

 

I'm sure there are more. I will say that in my opinion, #4 is by far the most important one listed here.