Ironclad v.s. Venerable which is better?

[deity12]

Hey, I've been looking into a buying a new dreadnought, but I can't decide between a venerable and an ironclad. :huh:

Does anybody have any opinions? Tactics? Best weapon combinations?

I know this is similar to the 'Are dreadnoughts any good' forum but i just wanted to know about the other two.

Any input appreciated.

[Validar]

I'd say ironclad, no doubt. A dreadnought is a CC beast and this one takes it over the top sporting not only the dreadnought close combat weapon, but also a seismic hammer (which is the same, but allows you to crash through vehicles with even more ease!) - on top of that there is a meltagun and a possible heavy flamer. Yeah, multimelta is better than a meltagun - but you want your dread to be as close as possible, hopefully within charge range to make use of str 10 goodness and within 6" the meltagun and multi melta is pretty much the same.

 

On top of all that you get move through cover, extra armor for free and 1 extra armor (!).

 

The venerable sports a higher BS and WS. It has the venerable ability, which is good, no doubt. But when you look at the price there simply is no doubt if you ask me.

[greatcrusade08]

i agree with validar, an ironclad is more versatile and survivable.. you dont take dreads for the heavy weapon (not solely anyway), you take them becuase they can crush vehicles and infantry.. the ironclad does this better and AV13 stands upto fists and the like much betetr than AV12

[Jackelope King]

Ironclad can actually be useful, especially when spammed.

 

Venerable Dreads just cost too darn much for WS and BS5, and the Venerable rule, while nice, ain't worth the price tag. A Rifleman Dreadnought is vastly cheaper and generally more destructive than most Venerable configurations, and an Ironclad is better in melee. Which stinks, because my DIY chapter has a big contingent of Dreadnoughts, and I'd like to field Venerable Dreads if they were actually good.

[DarkGuard]

I'd like to disagree with what a couple of people have said about Dreads being taken for close combat ability. At first glance I would agree with that assessment, Dreadnoughts appear to be monstrous in combat, with S10 attacks at I4 that ignore armour saves. Add that to front armour 12 and the ability to take a heavy weapon and heavy flamer and assault in the same turn as shooting, awesome! However, with poor movement they have a sign on their head saying shoot first, and with only 2 base attacks at WS4 Dreadnoughts don't tend to make too much of an impact in combat, instead they just end up stuck there when they could be doing something more useful. O and then that hidden power fist hits them hard and stops their rampage. Therefore, shooting is better, especially with the Rifleman config.

 

Now while this assessment is largely based around a normal Dreadnought (you know, the ones that are more worth their points than the others), it can be used as a cornerstone in assessing their variants, the Venerable and Ironclad. Now while the Venerable model is beautiful, and comes with the plasma cannon, it is too expensive in points cost. Yeah you get increased WS and BS, and the Venerable rule, but it still suffers from only 2 base attacks, plus the fact that you have to sacrifice its shooting ability to be in combat. You could use the Venerable as a rifleman variant, true, but you don't need BS5 TL-autocannons, BS4 ones are fine and for much less points.

 

Now because of this I prefer the Ironclad. OK, it sticks with WS4, but it has more attacks, and is better built for combat with EA and an extra point of front and side armour built in. Plus you can give it assault and defensive grenades plus two assault weapons. However, it therefore suffers from decreased range in addition to the mobility issues that all Dreadnoughts suffer. True you can use a Drop Pod, or run loads of them for saturation, but then the former gets too expensive for what it does, while the latter requires a dedicated list and can't be slipped into any list.

 

Overall, I think the Ironclad is better as it has great utility and survivability, and can be put in a Drop Pod to take out an opponent's vehicle first turn. However, as far as combat potential is concerned, although the Ironclad is a shade better than the Venerable, it's not amazing at it, and IMO if you want a combat Dreadnought you're better off looking at Blood Angels. Some of their Dreadnoughts can fly, taking away movement issues, while others can amass a great many S6/7 lightning claw attacks, letting them truly be amazing in combat.

[RavenTalon]

Bottom Line: I agree with DarkGuard that the Vanilla Dread is the way to go. Both the Iron Clad and the Venerable are good ideas with poor execution.

 

The Ironclad wants very much to get stuck in, but I have found him underwhelming, even IF he actually gets there. If you are going to use him, you better fork over the cash for two/three IC Dreads and for two/three drop pods. This guy is NOT a "CC Beast," but rather a vehicle hunter. The HK missiles, melta gun and seismic hammer are all geared towards tearing open tanks. Good luck with that - he will likely run after/behind them the whole game as they laugh, point and drive away shooting (especially without a Drop Pod for the guy). If you a relying on the IC Dread anti-tank, you need to re-look the use of melta weapons and long ranger fire power. As for CC: no matter how cool the weapons are, you are not going to win Close Combat with anyone meaningful with only 2(3) attacks. If you are looking for CC from an elite slot, Assault Terminators are definitely the way to go. Just compare the anti-tank output of five assault termies (edit: with TH/SS) against the IC Dread. Now compare the close combat potential between the two. Which on do you think is better?

 

I love the venerable model, but I use mine as a vanilla dread and clarify this before the game with my opponent. All the special rules and increased WS/BS are great, but for fire support he's not worth the cost. The much maligned as a WAAC favorite, the Rifleman Dread, IS the best long ranged anti-tank elite for its points. His twin linked weapons make the increase in BS from a Venerable Dread irrelevant.

 

Test them out though. Try using a proxy for a venerable dread in the fire support role or an ironclad as a close combat weapon. I've found that the venerable dread is not worth the upgrade points. He doesn't do anything that the a vanilla dread cannot do for less points. The Ironclad is like an Ork with a Powerclaw: all you have to do is drive away and shoot him. The Ork with the Powerclaw relies on the boys to win closecombat, and the Powerclaw is there "just in case."

 

If you have to have one, the Ironclad is the better of the two. You'll need more than one to get the job done, and again there are better options in the elites slots for CC.

[Destaro]

I'm not sure an accurate comparison can be made on a strictly unit by unit basis as the term "better" is highly subjective and completely dependent on factors outside what is covered in the individual unit listings. Can we have more background information on your particular army composition, common opponents, and play style? What type of role do you expect these Dreadnoughts to play?

 

In a very broad sense, I see Ironclads as expensive distractions unless you are fielding more than one. However, I have never tried running an IC Dread without a Drop Pod, so I can only speak about that use. To me, Ironclads operate as part of an Alpha Strike or distraction to allow slower moving parts of your army to deploy where they are needed or appear so threatening that your opponent "has" to deal with it.

 

I find Venerable Dreadnoughts much more useful as an escort for other units, like a Rhino'd Tactical Squad or Sternguard. The increased BS makes an Assault Cannon or Plasma Cannon a very attractive option and complements the mid-field MM of the Tactical Squad or the overall lethality of Sternguard while the infantry and transport increase the survivability of the Dreadnought. Venerables are a support piece that work best in concert with other parts of your army.

[deity12]

Thanks for the fast reply.

I have decided to get one of each, but get the ironclad first because that does seem more points for value.

I agree with most of the opinions here, the venerable is definatley the cooler model.

Thanks.

[Disruptor_fe404]

In C:SM, I find Venerables to not be worth the hefty point cost.

 

C:DA and C:BT have Venerables at points costs I'd pay (and I do, I spam them in my C:DA list, but my C:BT list is only allowed one, so that's how many I take).

 

In C:SM, the Ironclad is my pick, followed closely by Riflemen and Hellfires.

[LardO'Blood]

In C:SM, I find Venerables to not be worth the hefty point cost.

 

C:DA and C:BT have Venerables at points costs I'd pay (and I do, I spam them in my C:DA list, but my C:BT list is only allowed one, so that's how many I take).

 

In C:SM, the Ironclad is my pick, followed closely by Riflemen and Hellfires.

Agreed, venerables are only worth it in DA and BT. For vanilla and SW my favorite is a TLLC and ML standard dreadnought. Ironclads just don't cut it in my opinion:

1. They aren't very mobile after the initial drop pod (and that raises its price over a venerable).

2. They aren't even a big CC threat, 3 guys dead per turn is only scary if you play pure grey knights or Eldar.

3. They are just as good at dreadlocking as a regular dreadnought, just 30 points for 13 front (and side?) armor instead of 12. One can argue that venerables are the best dreadlock in any codex because they can reroll the lucky power fist attack that killed it.

4. They aren't that scary against tanks. MM are just as scary as seismic hammer and have an effective range of 18" as opposed to 12".

5. They aren't that great of a distraction (alone that is). Drop pod them in and even very little anti tank can end their day. Paired up in pods they are a minimum of 340 points. For that you can take a land raider and a 5 man tactical squad.

6. The thing they are best at killing IMO is MCs. Unfortunately a S6 A4 or more (which seems to be the most common) MC will penetrate its armor at least twice.

[waaanial00]

Long ago shelved my Ironclad, its custom made right handed power fist (counts as Siege Hammer) has since gathered dust whilst the model has been used for my Rifleman.

 

Overall it just didnt do enough for me. It didnt really have the survivability I was expecting of an AV13 walker. Its just not good enough unless you have a Lucius Drop pod to almost guarentee that it will see combat. Maybe if they enable the use of the Stormraven in all SM lists it will see more of the battlefield, however until then I will only be running long ranged shooty dreads.

 

I dont want to brick up this forum with another repeat of my Venerable Dreadnought assesment so click on the link below to see it in full.

 

My breakdown about the Venerable Dreadnought

[spartan249]

Dude, I think you should just get the venerable dreadnought kit and use them as normal dreads. The normal dreadnought kit does not come with a plasma cannon or with plates that could represent extra armor. However, the normal dread kit does come with left arm missile launcher, if you're into that sort of thing.

 

I use venerable dreadnoughts extensively, but that only works because I base my army on them. Using them as support for your army can chew up all your points very quickly.

 

I think Ironclads require your army to be built around them to be really effective, but even then they are very vulnerable to melta weapons because of the lack of ranged combat capabilities.

 

Bottom line: Fire support - Normal Dread using the Ven Dread kit. Distraction: Ironclad in a pod.

[Vangrail]

I like the Venerable personally with eaither Assault cannon or plasma cannon. personally always give a dread a power fist.

 

But Fa 13 it real handy...maby its just me but when i used the iron clad it didnt do well.

[Captain Idaho]

Venerables are good but only in certain army lists. If you have a Landraider or 5 man unit that costs 200pts etc, then adding a Venerable eats up valuable points.

 

However if you have a list with a couple of Dreads, Tacticals and maybe a Sternguard unit then a Venerable becomes much more attractive. Why? Well because you have a few points to throw about and the extra cost won't cost you something you can't do without.

 

Incidently, a Dreadnought is an anchor unit you choose for it's versatility. You don't choose it for it's heavy weapon, mobility or assault potential. You choose it for a combination thereof. A Venerable is very good at all three and also more survivable with it.

 

It's essentially the Sternguard of Dreadnoughts; more expensive than the standard choice to be worthwhile in all lists but in the right list a powerful attribute to have in your list.

 

Of course the exceptions with this is the Rifleman, Heavy Gunner and Helfire Dreadnoughts which are based upon shooting...

[ninjaturtlethug]

Allright, this is an old thread but as I'm the first one to post completely pro-venerable, I feel worthwhile.

 

I use all three types of dreads in my army lists, depending on who and how I'm going to play. And they all are good if used correctly. But the venerable is the type of dread that performs the best for me.

 

I'll usually load it with a multi-melta or assault cannon, as these weapons wake the best use of BS5. The other arm will usually have a heavy flamer DCCW to keep it versatile.

 

They are great when deployed in front of the rest of my armor, giving them cover saves. My opponent will often mistakenly focus on them first, finding that the venerable rule will leave most of them still completely intact after a round of shooting.

 

They are also the best unit we have to tarpit deathstar squads, units of assault termnators will get stuck in combat with my dreads for two or three full game turns depending on how many thunder hammers he has and how well my venerable rolls go, and while they are stuck, the rest of my army can focus on the rest of his. One friend of mine who uses Templar Terminators has learned to ignore the Venerable's, so I keep them close to my troops choices, meaning that he's going to get tarpitted no matter what he does. And the S10 powerfist is one of only a few ways we can cause instant death to t-wolf cav.

 

If my opponent does not have a deathstar squad, they do very well supporting the rest of my army in midfield, they are so versatile that it allows my army to adapt quickly to whatever I'm facing. In comparison, the ironclad requires your army to fit around it because of its short range weaponry and narrow scope of usage.

 

If you consider that effective ironclads often need drop-pods, then the cost of both dreads are fairly equal, and the venerable won't give up an extra kill point for it's transport. Personally I haven't had much success Drop-podding ironclads behind enemy lines, as this often allows the enemy to drive around to the back of my dreadnought and shoot it where it's AV10. They have been very effective for me however, dropping onto objectives where the rest of my opponents force can't immediately respond, forcing my opponent to either abandon his objective or re-route other forces in response.

 

I've got more, but thats the gist of it, maybe I'll write a dreadnought tactica if there isn't one already on the site.