Sanquine Sword?

[Kevlarshark]

Sanguine Swords description seems to have no time as to when it wears off...

I have had people try to claim that once cast their librarian is st 10 for the rest of the game.

This seems very much like an oversight...

 

All the other power descriptions state their power is either:-

a shooting attack which obviously ends after its shot...or

Lasts for that phase, but not so with Sanguine Sword.

 

However it does not state it remains in play either?

[dswanick]

You have summed up the problem pretty well. I suspect it is a glaring oversight. Until it is Eratta'd - RAW is that the power does not expire.

[JamesI]

While RAW is the power does not expire, I doubt any TO or groups will happily allow it to be used that way.

 

This is clearly just an oversight, the power is way too good if it never expires.

[Kevlarshark]

Unfortunatly a tournie is excatily where I encountered this 'oversight'... I didn't particularily want to be 'that guy' arguing against the RAW, rules wise I didnt have a leg to stand on. My opponent used it on Mephiston, who is quite hard enough without being St 10... I wondered why he cast a CC power on the first turn when all my guys were futher than 20" away!

[thade]

He was being unpolite, to be fair. I field Meph quite a bit. When I do, I test for Str 10 every time he comes into an assault. All powers the other powers last for the Player Turn; why should Str 10 be any different? He's already Str 6, :D.

[Hellios]

Unfortunatly a tournie is excatily where I encountered this 'oversight'... I didn't particularily want to be 'that guy' arguing against the RAW, rules wise I didnt have a leg to stand on. My opponent used it on Mephiston, who is quite hard enough without being St 10... I wondered why he cast a CC power on the first turn when all my guys were futher than 20" away!

 

Tournies don't always use strict RAW... sometimes they use RAI in some areas... I understand how in the middle of the game you wouldn't want to fight against RAW however before you go into a tourny you can as the TOs before you play any games what their stance would be on this matter before you play any games and you may well find that they agree that the RAI is that it lasts for that player turn... So you might then be able to call on a judge should it turn up in one of your games knowing what the answer to the question is... and not feel like some evil doer :D

[Dhx711]

With people trying to exploit loop holes like this it no wonder why folks are yelling our 'dex is "over-powered".

[Isiah]

With people trying to exploit loop holes like this it no wonder why folks are yelling our 'dex is "over-powered".

 

Technically it isn't a loop hole as it's RAW.

[shatter]

The same kind of RAW that GW faq-ed away with Doom'. Playing versus folks that couldn't give a flying about the spirit of the game, an FAQ is required to stop it.

[dswanick]

With people trying to exploit loop holes like this it no wonder why folks are yelling our 'dex is "over-powered".

 

Technically it isn't a loop hole as it's RAW.

See below - especially definition #2

noun

Definition of LOOPHOLE

1a : a small opening through which small arms may be fired b : a similar opening to admit light and air or to permit observation

2: a means of escape; especially : an ambiguity or omission in the text through which the intent of a statute, contract, or obligation may be evaded

[Captain Malachi]

At the moment, if you play it as lasting one turn then that's a house rule. There is nothing in there to say it ends after one turn. Yes, it's an oversight, but it's still pretty clear what it says right now. I'm not saying you shouldn't house rule it, 'cos you should, I'm just saying using a rules argument for it won't work.

[Kevlarshark]

However all other powers which remain in play have that clearly stated in their description or are described as permenent.

 

Till its FAQed I suggest you (BA players) discuss this one with your opponent before the game...Its only polite that they know your flying librarian is functionally st 10.

 

To be honest I read the Blood Angels PP section just before the tournie, and it never occured to me that SS would last for more than that combat phase. It also opens up the possibility of combining it with Unleash Rage (having cast SS in a previous turn).

[thade]

At the moment, if you play it as lasting one turn then that's a house rule. There is nothing in there to say it ends after one turn. Yes, it's an oversight, but it's still pretty clear what it says right now. I'm not saying you shouldn't house rule it, 'cos you should, I'm just saying using a rules argument for it won't work.

 

It's actually not clear at all what it says. It says that the librarians attacks are resolved at Strength 10; it gives NO duration at all, leaving us to guess. There are three possibilities.

 

1. It lasts for a Player Turn, like every other power we've ever seen that doesn't specify otherwise.

2. It lasts for the game. The reasoning? IT DOESN'T SAY OTHERWISE.

3. It lasts FOREVER. I mean, seriously, not just for the game, but take the Psychic Test, right now, at your desk. It's just as sensible RAW as the previous two. It will last forever, every time you take the Librarian. Well done. The reasoning? IT DOESN'T SAY OTHERWISE?

 

What should trouble all of you is how alike #2 and #3 are. This is clearly an oversight and I think falls under GW's favorite default FAQ, "What? Are you daft?" We all here are not daft. Don't fall for this. Don't allow this. Don't do this. It makes more sense to assume it means Player Turn than it does to assume anything else. Why? Because 9 times out of 10 that is the duration for other powers.

[Dan VK]

In principle I agree with Thade, but RAW is what is written, not what is obvious. Knowing the words “until the end of the turn” should be there does not mean they are there.

 

It is clearly an oversight and we all know that if Sanguine Sword is addressed in a FAQ a duration will be added. If someone abused this limited-time-offer mistake in the Codex at a tournament I am fairly certain a TO would shut him down. If he tried it at a store his opponent would probably walk away from him, and certainly would not play him again. If he tried it with his friends at best he would be laughed at and labeled unsporting, at worse swore at and told to stop being insulting.

 

Sometimes codices contain mistakes which we players must live with until corrected, but knowing what the correction will be does not change what is (or is not) currently written in the book. In this case it is written that Sanguine Sword allows the Librarian to strike at S10 and it is not written that it ends at any point during the game. I completely agree with Thade that playing this way is ridiculous; I would ask for a roll-off.

 

[EDIT: Added emphasis and corrected grammar.]

[thade]

In principle I agree with Thade, but RAW is what is written, not what is obvious. Knowing the words “until the end of the turn” should be there does not mean they are there.

 

This is precisely what I'm saying though. There is NO reference to time frame, at all. That means that, bottom-line, ANY inference or assumption about time frame - be it player turn, game turn, whole game, or "forever" - is RAI. You are all using RAI when you assert that it means it lasts however long it does. We dont have a RAW duration for there power; there is no written duration in that rule.

 

Permissive ruleset, you say? Well, does it say you CAN'T have that power last FOREVER? No, it does not. Hey! Take that test at your desk. Done.

 

Forgive me, but...see how dumb that sounds?

 

RAW this is solid grey area, because there is nothing stating what the duration is. If you *assume* it means "game", that's what you are doing. That's RAI. The logical assumption is that it fits the precedent, i.e. a player turn, but that is *also* an assumption. That's RAI. We're kind of buried here with regards to RAW, so don't count on any appeals to it being very satisfying.

[Dan VK]

I understand what you are saying. I am of the opinion that if it is not written it does not happen, so since the power does not have a duration its benefit does not end. I am also of the opinion that battles/games are completely separate unless specifically mentioned to be otherwise, like in Planetstrike.

 

I think we are quibbling over how we achieved our conclusions instead of what that conclusion is. I think we agree that Sanguine Sword lasting until the end of the game (or further, by your statements) is completely ridiculous, dumb-sounding, and is the result of a mistake in the Codex. It needs a FAQ answer and until then it is best to House Rule it or roll off, and anyone who tests during the first Assault phase to gain the benefit for the entire game is :), if not a :sick:.

[Dhx711]

Thade has this dead on.

 

If you going to use RAI then for God-sakes use common sense in applying RAI.

[shatter]

Right, any duration is a house rule at present.

[thade]

I think we agree that Sanguine Sword lasting until the end of the game (or further, by your statements) is completely ridiculous, dumb-sounding, and is the result of a mistake in the Codex. It needs a FAQ answer and until then it is best to House Rule it or roll off, and anyone who tests during the first Assault phase to gain the benefit for the entire game is :huh:, if not a :(.

 

I'm glad we had this talk. :) In conclusion, may you all take that test for Str 10 once each assault phase so our opponents have one less reason to cry BA shenanigans. <3