douglas9521 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 My theory of why angron and the world eaters wouldnt be used as executioners is angrons hostility to the emperor.Might make him some what unreliable in being used to attack a brother by the father he has a problem with.Just a theory,ADB might have a idea why kurze wouldnt be used. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2613964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 @Lord Rags: As much as it pains me to admit it, at this point in the series, the Wolves of Fenris are guilty of hypocrisy. Regardless of how we justify it, we used psychic abilities in our efforts to bring to justice a Primarch and his Legion of using psychic abilities. While older sources paint the T-Sons as being disciplined for using sorcery (and make a point to mention the difference of sorcery and the psychic), this has seem to be removed from the most currrent version. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2614072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 It's a delicious irony that the Space Wolves hate the Thousand Sons yet are very, very similar to them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2614841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Regardless of how we justify it, we used psychic abilities in our efforts to bring to justice a Primarch and his Legion of using psychic abilities. While older sources paint the T-Sons as being disciplined for using sorcery (and make a point to mention the difference of sorcery and the psychic), this has seem to be removed from the most currrent version. Graham Mcnubbin is a pain in the backside at times. He has made the fall from grace look like a shambles by portraying the most intelligent primarch as nothing more than a child that thinks he knows better than everyone else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2615140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 He has made the fall from grace look like a shambles by portraying the most intelligent primarch as nothing more than a child that thinks he knows better than everyone else. Curiosity kills even smart cats. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2615177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Occassionally yes. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2615195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 Regardless of how we justify it, we used psychic abilities in our efforts to bring to justice a Primarch and his Legion of using psychic abilities. While older sources paint the T-Sons as being disciplined for using sorcery (and make a point to mention the difference of sorcery and the psychic), this has seem to be removed from the most currrent version. Graham Mcnubbin is a pain in the backside at times. He has made the fall from grace look like a shambles by portraying the most intelligent primarch as nothing more than a child that thinks he knows better than everyone else. I don't believe so. I never got the sense that Magnus was a child from reading A Thousand Sons. From how experiances he was making the correct descision. Of course the whole change to the Nikea outcome was done originally in Collected Visions and refrenced earlier than that. Other GW authors are doing it, not just one guy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2615209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Ok maybe childish was over the top. The fact he is so convinced that he knows better than everyone - literally everyone, even his own father (which he openly states in A Thousand Sons) is redicious. Magnus was always depicted as WLK says as in control all the time, the legion never exceeded themselves but were willing to learn more than most. Magnus' legion were disaplined down to a T - and all of a sudden, slap head comes along and turns him into a bog standard numpty undone by his own stupidity. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2615383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 How else would they turn if they didn't do something they shouldn't have? It's all very well saying they were smart and in control etc but that can only ever be to a point otherwise they wouldn't be in the situation they are now. It's like Lorgar in TFH, people complain about him being whiney and weak etc. Well if he was the charismatic flawless leader he is apparently supposed to be then why dis he not lead the Heresy? Why let Horus take command? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2615397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 How else would they turn if they didn't do something they shouldn't have? It's all very well saying they were smart and in control etc but that can only ever be to a point otherwise they wouldn't be in the situation they are now. It's like Lorgar in TFH, people complain about him being whiney and weak etc. Well if he was the charismatic flawless leader he is apparently supposed to be then why dis he not lead the Heresy? Why let Horus take command? Because Horus was loved and respected, whereas Lorgar was not. Lorgar was astute enough to know those shoes weren't his to fill. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2615410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Because Horus was loved and respected, whereas Lorgar was not. Lorgar was astute enough to know those shoes weren't his to fill. Bang on. Also if you read, Magnus was the first choice of chaos but he wouldn't bow to their advances and so Horus was the next best thing purely for the reasons stated above. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2615412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Ok maybe childish was over the top. The fact he is so convinced that he knows better than everyone - literally everyone, even his own father (which he openly states in A Thousand Sons) is redicious. Magnus was always depicted as WLK says as in control all the time, the legion never exceeded themselves but were willing to learn more than most. Magnus' legion were disaplined down to a T - and all of a sudden, slap head comes along and turns him into a bog standard numpty undone by his own stupidity. There's a sense of desperation to Magnus' ever-increasing intellectual pursuits, though, he being burdened with the knowledge that he'd sold himself and his Legion to Chaos to stabilize the flesh change. Vainglorious might be a better adjective, if only because he had to believe he could wheedle his way out of his Faustian pact, be it through sorcery or guile. From my perspective, Magnus was someone whom, after having given up his eye for wisdom, realized that he was not adequate to the task of freeing himself from the catch-22 he'd put himself into, but that same wisdom that declared him unfit also was his prompt to try and find a way in spite of itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2615417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Exactly he wasn't and there needs to be a reason for that, maybe he's not strong minded as the other Primarchs. Lorgar was insecure in that book which is why he passed off leadership to Horus. If he wasn't and was strong minded etc then I imagine he'd probably take more of an active roll if not even lead it himself. But we know it's the Horus Heresy so there must be a reason Lorgar did pass command over. Magnus being Chaos's first choice has no bearing on Lorgar's decision to pass command over. I imagine Chaos would have told Kor Phareon and Erebus to get Logar to do so. The fact is that legions did turn and there is a reason for it, they can't all be noble and flawless otherwise it wouldn't have happened. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2615420 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Descendant Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Ok, here's my spoiler-ish question on how others interpreted Prospero Burns... Throughout the book the saying "There are no wolves on Fenris" is used several times, to which Longfang finally replies "Until we got here". This is mixed in with Hawser having a vision of being saved by a large wolf called Brom (same name as one of the Fenrisian tribesmen from the start of the book), and noticing ten thousand pairs of golden eyes from the darkness of the forest. In the end, Hawser also runs off into the darkness to be with said eyes.... is this in reference to the Space Wolves' trial where they drink from the cup and those who fail to overcome it become full wolves/wulfen? Is this implying that the tribesman Brom failed said trial? And that Hawser also willingly drank of said cup to live out his existance as a wolf (in spite of the previous references to him going into stasis)? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2615432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 The fact he is so convinced that he knows better than everyone - literally everyone, even his own father (which he openly states in A Thousand Sons) is redicious. And why not? For his entire life and experiances Magnus would have been right. He outstripped his tutors on Prospero easily, none of the Primarchs where his equal in terms of psychic prowess and I doubt he ever saw his father's full powers. Magnus was every right to be arrogant. Magnus was always depicted as WLK says as in control all the time, the legion never exceeded themselves but were willing to learn more than most. Magnus' legion were disaplined down to a T - and all of a sudden, slap head comes along and turns him into a bog standard numpty undone by his own stupidity. They were? Are you talking about in the book or in the IA's? Even in the IA's there is the possible hint that the Thousand Sons went to far in their search for knowledge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2615443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 How far is too far thats the question, too far for the Imperiums liking or literally too far for their own good? It is the first, according to the old stuff - more things point to this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2615911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ornestahl Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 How far is too far thats the question, too far for the Imperiums liking or literally too far for their own good? It is the first, according to the old stuff - more things point to this. He sold his legion and his own soul to Tzeenech, and thats NOT to far? Magnus was arrogant, and a fool that thought he could out manipulate the master manipulator. There is ALWAYS a bigger fish. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2615916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 How far is too far thats the question, too far for the Imperiums liking or literally too far for their own good? It is the first, according to the old stuff - more things point to this. Actually I never got the impression it was one thing over another. IA fairly neutral, but opened up to the possibilites of the other way. but in any case, sorcery is bad for you. Even in the IA they question wheter Magnus really had free will or wheter it was all Tzeentch's plot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2615949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 How far is too far thats the question, too far for the Imperiums liking or literally too far for their own good? It is the first, according to the old stuff - more things point to this. He sold his legion and his own soul to Tzeenech, and thats NOT to far? Magnus was arrogant, and a fool that thought he could out manipulate the master manipulator. There is ALWAYS a bigger fish. The mistake you are making is applying your understanding of the setting to a character within it. A Thousand Sons makes it quite clear that Magnus is NOT aware of the true nature of the beings within the warp, or how malignant they really are. That he believes they are benign and helping him (as he and his Legion think of the familar things, I forget their name, that follow his marines around), that is naviety not arrogance. BTW I'm not claiming that Magnus wasn't an arrogant SOB, he was - but not to the extent, or for the reasons, you suggest. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2615961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrun0riginal Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 After finishing the book, I must say I enjoy it. It puts the wolves in a better light, and I especially enjoy that they have become the Emperor's executioners. But that makes me wonder what Angron and the world eaters are... Also, the book had quite a slow start, and woefully little actually on Prospero. All in all, good though. Abnett's a good writer, in comics and books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2616267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Because Horus was loved and respected, whereas Lorgar was not. Lorgar was astute enough to know those shoes weren't his to fill. Bang on. Also if you read, Magnus was the first choice of chaos but he wouldn't bow to their advances and so Horus was the next best thing purely for the reasons stated above. If you can believe the lies of a daemon. Think about it; "you're our favourite, honest. We only went with Horus because you are so good. Now you can join us because you proved you have proven to be the best and we will have an equal partnership. Honest!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2616312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brannick Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 For me it was probably the best book in the series so far. Over the last few weeks I have read a ton of critique across the net in regards to Prospero Burns, so I totally accept that I may be sitting on the minority side of the fence here. The book made me laugh (a number of times), I felt the emotion and I allowed myself to be thoroughly absorbed in the company of the Wolves. It was like a very well written version of Descent of Angels combined with the intricacies and surprises of A Thousand Sons - I loved it. From the Norse feeling of the start, the dream sequence that tied in at the end, the look in to various battles, a second step in to Nikaea and lots of juicy 'what ifs' thrown in for good measure. My only fault of the book is the 'presence' within Kasper's dream sequence, which we visit a number of times. The entity comes to the fore at the battle for Prospero, but I truly couldn't work out if it was just a daemon or something more - I did lose my way a bit there. Nothing a good re-read will not cure. I understand the interplay of Kasper/Horus being groomed by Chaos, but it still didn't quite slot home that sequence. No, you are not getting the whole battle for Prospero once more, but I for one am glad about that. If you want a rip-roaring slug fest for the majority of the book then you are going to be disappointed for sure. What you do get is a fantastic insight in to the workings of the Wolves and what they are all about and why they act like they do. They are clearly not a bunch of numbskull barbarians, but can play that roll as and when ordered. Abnett gave the Wolves so many 'cute' little nuances and traits that just suckered me in as the reader. An example would be when Lord Gunn sniffed Kasper's breath and hair - them thar Wolves aren't stupid, they knew before we as the reader did! What a great little series of events featuring 'Bear' - especially at the end, I was grinning from ear to ear. Bring on 'Age of Darkness'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2619339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 Ok, here's my spoiler-ish question on how others interpreted Prospero Burns... Throughout the book the saying "There are no wolves on Fenris" is used several times, to which Longfang finally replies "Until we got here". This is mixed in with Hawser having a vision of being saved by a large wolf called Brom (same name as one of the Fenrisian tribesmen from the start of the book), and noticing ten thousand pairs of golden eyes from the darkness of the forest. In the end, Hawser also runs off into the darkness to be with said eyes.... is this in reference to the Space Wolves' trial where they drink from the cup and those who fail to overcome it become full wolves/wulfen? Is this implying that the tribesman Brom failed said trial? And that Hawser also willingly drank of said cup to live out his existance as a wolf (in spite of the previous references to him going into stasis)? The brom thing I figured is a reference to the wulfen as longfang says its time we let you know one of our secrets. As for the darkness that was the being in stasis with the dreadnoughts. I got the impression that theres some sort of psychic link at that stage. The whole story is convoluted with dream sequences so its hard to know whats happening for real. With the whole being kept in stasis and being woken up when they need him to tell the story ( effectively like a dreadnought), I suspect Dan Abnett has thrown in a few wobblers to show what effect this is having on hawser, particularly the bit where the daemon says it will be a years time when horus will turn to chaos when by that point its already happened. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2622735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 I found the book a really good read...... a shame that Magnus decided to voluntarily 'lose' and not let the full force of the Thousand Sons be unleashed against the Space Wolves. The :ph34r: wolves still had to take the Custodians and Sisters of Silence along to babysit them!! :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2626914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 My theory of why angron and the world eaters wouldnt be used as executioners is angrons hostility to the emperor.Might make him some what unreliable in being used to attack a brother by the father he has a problem with.Just a theory,ADB might have a idea why kurze wouldnt be used. The Emperor knew that Angron really didnt like him and therefore couldnt be trusted... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/215584-prospero-burns/page/10/#findComment-2626920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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