Prospero Burns

[Lord_Caerolion]

So why were they allowed to exist then, if he can barely stand the Wolves? It just doesn't make sense.

[Lord Ragnarok]

@Lord Rags: As much as it pains me to admit it, at this point in the series, the Wolves of Fenris are guilty of hypocrisy.

 

Regardless of how we justify it, we used psychic abilities in our efforts to bring to justice a Primarch and his Legion of using psychic abilities. While older sources paint the T-Sons as being disciplined for using sorcery (and make a point to mention the difference of sorcery and the psychic), this has seem to be removed from the most currrent version.

 

WLK

 

 

How so?

[Lord_Caerolion]

@Lord Rags: As much as it pains me to admit it, at this point in the series, the Wolves of Fenris are guilty of hypocrisy.

 

Regardless of how we justify it, we used psychic abilities in our efforts to bring to justice a Primarch and his Legion of using psychic abilities. While older sources paint the T-Sons as being disciplined for using sorcery (and make a point to mention the difference of sorcery and the psychic), this has seem to be removed from the most currrent version.

 

WLK

 

 

How so?

 

The fact that A Thousand Sons and the Collected Visions states that the Emperor outlaws all psychic use by the Legions, not merely sorcery. The Space Wolves knowingly violated this order, but attempt to rationalise it as "they have control over it", something irrelevant to the fact that they've broken the Edict. They then prosecute Magnus for using psychic powers, while doing it themselves. Therefore, they are hypocrites.

[Ashe Darke]

Except them attacking Prospero wasn't their idea, they were just ordered to do it. Sure if they decided to do it themselves without prompting then yes, but this order came from Terra.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Regardless of where the order came from, and ignoring the venom that Lady Caerolion drips with every post, the Wolves were assigned to bring Magnus to Terra.

 

As we havent seen the ACTUAL order to bring Magnus in (that i know of), we have to assume that they were under the same rules as their brother Astartes. (No psychic powers).

 

In using the psychic powers, they are guilty of defying the Emperor's Law.

 

WLK

[Raven Angel]

Having just finished both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns I recall NO evidence that the Wolves violated the edict of Nikia. As for who gave what order I think the thing to remeber is that no one tried to stop the assualt. No parle was ever attemped by either side so ther was never a chance for a peace full solution.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Except them attacking Prospero wasn't their idea, they were just ordered to do it. Sure if they decided to do it themselves without prompting then yes, but this order came from Terra.

 

Actually, that particular order came from Vengeful Spirit. ;)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Having just finished both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns I recall NO evidence that the Wolves violated the edict of Nikia. As for who gave what order I think the thing to remeber is that no one tried to stop the assualt. No parle was ever attemped by either side so ther was never a chance for a peace full solution.

 

The probes into Kasper's dreams in Abnetts book.

The warding gestures might also count.

 

I havent read A Thousand Sons in 2 months or so (and cant remember any specific instance), but those who are more dedicated to this can probably find something.

 

WLK

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I havent read A Thousand Sons in 2 months or so (and cant remember any specific instance), but those who are more dedicated to this can probably find something.

 

WLK

 

The only instance I can recall from A Thousand Sons of the Space Wolves using psychic powers post-Nikea was Othere Wyrdmake vs Azhek Ahriman. The presence of the Sisters of Silence would have countered the Rune Priests as much as it did the Sorcerers, so the Wolves wouldn't have relied on psyker vs psyker in any great capacity.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

One thing i would like to say, and this is entirely opinion zone, is that everybody everywhere is guilty of hypocrisy. nobody is perfect.

 

which is why i think that if this is supposed to be a flaw in the Wolves of Fenris, then it is a weak flaw. (especially when you consider the amount of possibilities).

 

i said in a earlier post, that if Russ, when charged with this duty, was told that he was exempt from Nikea's ruling and to not hold back, then everything would be honky-dory. but as far as we know, he wasnt, and Marines under his command continued to use their now outlawed abilities.

 

WLK

[Ashe Darke]

Except them attacking Prospero wasn't their idea, they were just ordered to do it. Sure if they decided to do it themselves without prompting then yes, but this order came from Terra.

 

Actually, that particular order came from Vengeful Spirit. :(

I was gonna put allegedly but I thought otherwise.

 

I have to admit seeing all this 'they're hypocrites' stuff only makes me think one thing. So what? Big deal, oooo they broke the rules. I doubt they care they are hypocrites, they probably knew they were breaking the rules as they did it. All this labelling of hypocrisy reminds me of kids in the school ground telling teacher because one of the other kids broke the no running rule and then they keep bringing it up afterwards, how they shouldn't have got away with it and they still broke the rules.

 

They quite clearly broke the rules now accept that and move on.

[A D-B]

My theory of why angron and the world eaters wouldnt be used as executioners is angrons hostility to the emperor.Might make him some what unreliable in being used to attack a brother by the father he has a problem with.Just a theory,ADB might have a idea why kurze wouldnt be used.

 

Me and Dan were actually talking about this at breakfast the other day. I brought it up: obviously, as something of a perceived 'Night Lords and World Eater guy', a lot of people are mailing me to ask about why the Wolves are the executioners, rather than the Night Lords and World Eaters. Now, we acknowledge a degree of overlap in the Legions' mandates, but ultimately, I told Dan this is how I planned to cover it in future novels:

 

"The Wolves' strength was that they never baulked at anything in the course of their duty to the Emperor. The Wolves obey, no matter what. We already know from the lore that the Night Lords didn't. And we can guess that the World Eaters wouldn't."

 

The matter comes down to reliability. The Night Lords and World Eaters simply couldn't be trusted with the same degree of responsibility that would be invested in a Legion like the Ultramarines, the Space Wolves, or the Imperial Fists.

 

That doesn't make them worse, exactly. I understand that in fandom, where we often identify ourselves as "we" when talking about or favourite Legion, that there's the drive to see your fave faction succeed and "be the best". But flaws are just as interesting; they're what make something unique, nuanced and cool. I like that some of the Legions just didn't quite match up to their brothers, because that's real. That's how life goes. Sure, they were all pretty much equal in battle, but they couldn't be trusted with the same degree of trust and responsibility.

 

And to me, that's what makes a lot of them interesting.

 

For the record, the World Eaters are likely to be well aware of the Wolves' position, and they're unlikely to respect them for it. "When a wolf takes a master and obeys his owner's call, he is no longer a wolf. He is a dog. Let them be the Emperor's pet killers. Our axes rise and fall to the drums of war, not the whims of a madman upon a throne of gold."

[Lord Ragnarok]

My theory of why angron and the world eaters wouldnt be used as executioners is angrons hostility to the emperor.Might make him some what unreliable in being used to attack a brother by the father he has a problem with.Just a theory,ADB might have a idea why kurze wouldnt be used.

 

Me and Dan were actually talking about this at breakfast the other day. I brought it up: obviously, as something of a perceived 'Night Lords and World Eater guy', a lot of people are mailing me to ask about why the Wolves are the executioners, rather than the Night Lords and World Eaters. Now, we acknowledge a degree of overlap in the Legions' mandates, but ultimately, I told Dan this is how I planned to cover it in future novels:

 

"The Wolves' strength was that they never baulked at anything in the course of their duty to the Emperor. The Wolves obey, no matter what. We already know from the lore that the Night Lords didn't. And we can guess that the World Eaters wouldn't."

 

The matter comes down to reliability. The Night Lords and World Eaters simply couldn't be trusted with the same degree of responsibility that would be invested in a Legion like the Ultramarines, the Space Wolves, or the Imperial Fists.

 

That doesn't make them worse, exactly. I understand that in fandom, where we often identify ourselves as "we" when talking about or favourite Legion, that there's the drive to see your fave faction succeed and "be the best". But flaws are just as interesting; they're what make something unique, nuanced and cool. I like that some of the Legions just didn't quite match up to their brothers, because that's real. That's how life goes. Sure, they were all pretty much equal in battle, but they couldn't be trusted with the same degree of trust and responsibility.

 

And to me, that's what makes a lot of them interesting.

 

For the record, the World Eaters are likely to be well aware of the Wolves' position, and they're unlikely to respect them for it. "When a wolf takes a master and obeys his owner's call, he is no longer a wolf. He is a dog. Let them be the Emperor's pet killers. Our axes rise and fall to the drums of war, not the whims of a madman upon a throne of gold."

 

 

Makes sense about unwavering when called upon to attack. I thought P burns explained this well and I've mentioned this in one of the other P. burns threads.

 

On Angron, I can see him saying that although he'll be one of the biggest lapdogs for Khorne.

[A D-B]

Makes sense about unwavering when called upon to attack. I thought P burns explained this well and I've mentioned this in one of the other P. burns threads.

 

On Angron, I can see him saying that although he'll be one of the biggest lapdogs for Khorne.

 

That's actually the exact kind of bias to be careful about.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Makes sense about unwavering when called upon to attack. I thought P burns explained this well and I've mentioned this in one of the other P. burns threads.

 

On Angron, I can see him saying that although he'll be one of the biggest lapdogs for Khorne.

 

That's actually the exact kind of bias to be careful about.

 

 

I don't understand. Please elaborate.

[Gree]

Makes sense about unwavering when called upon to attack. I thought P burns explained this well and I've mentioned this in one of the other P. burns threads.

 

On Angron, I can see him saying that although he'll be one of the biggest lapdogs for Khorne.

 

That's actually the exact kind of bias to be careful about.

 

 

I don't understand. Please elaborate.

 

I think is that Angron never set out to become anyone's lapdog. Like many Chaos worshippers he fell for different reasons and lost sight of his goals.

 

Take what Corax said in Raven's Flight. Angron wanted to be free. Unlike Russ he grew up as a slave, wheras Russ grew up first as a wolf free in the wilds and then he became a king over a notoriously independent people. Yet Angron was forcibly recruited into the Emperor's Armies and saw his friends die. Russ not only had the Emperor agree to his contests but he also had his friends be allowed to join him as Astartes. The two are opposite.

 

Russ saw the Emperor as his beloved Allfather. Angron saw the Emperor as just another slave-master he had to escape. When he joined Chaos he had freedom in mind, but that led in the end to becoming a slave in the service of Chaos.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Makes sense about unwavering when called upon to attack. I thought P burns explained this well and I've mentioned this in one of the other P. burns threads.

 

On Angron, I can see him saying that although he'll be one of the biggest lapdogs for Khorne.

 

That's actually the exact kind of bias to be careful about.

 

 

I don't understand. Please elaborate.

 

I think is that Angron never set out to become anyone's lapdog. Like many Chaos worshippers he fell for different reasons and lost sight of his goals.

 

Take what Corax said in Raven's Flight. Angron wanted to be free. Unlike Russ he grew up as a slave, wheras Russ grew up first as a wolf free in the wilds and then he became a king over a notoriously independent people. Yet Angron was forcibly recruited into the Emperor's Armies and saw his friends die. Russ not only had the Emperor agree to his contests but he also had his friends be allowed to join him as Astartes. The two are opposite.

 

Russ saw the Emperor as his beloved Allfather. Angron saw the Emperor as just another slave-master he had to escape. When he joined Chaos he had freedom in mind, but that led in the end to becoming a slave in the service of Chaos.

 

My comment was set in the present. Today, it is undeniable, that Angron is a laptop of Khorne. As with much of 30 and 40k there is alot of irony and based on what ADB stated how Angron would feel about Russ, I find it ironic that eventually (present time) he becomes a lapdog of Khorne.

[A D-B]

Makes sense about unwavering when called upon to attack. I thought P burns explained this well and I've mentioned this in one of the other P. burns threads.

 

On Angron, I can see him saying that although he'll be one of the biggest lapdogs for Khorne.

 

That's actually the exact kind of bias to be careful about.

 

 

I don't understand. Please elaborate.

 

I think is that Angron never set out to become anyone's lapdog. Like many Chaos worshippers he fell for different reasons and lost sight of his goals.

 

Take what Corax said in Raven's Flight. Angron wanted to be free. Unlike Russ he grew up as a slave, wheras Russ grew up first as a wolf free in the wilds and then he became a king over a notoriously independent people. Yet Angron was forcibly recruited into the Emperor's Armies and saw his friends die. Russ not only had the Emperor agree to his contests but he also had his friends be allowed to join him as Astartes. The two are opposite.

 

Russ saw the Emperor as his beloved Allfather. Angron saw the Emperor as just another slave-master he had to escape. When he joined Chaos he had freedom in mind, but that led in the end to becoming a slave in the service of Chaos.

 

My comment was set in the present. Today, it is undeniable, that Angron is a laptop of Khorne. As with much of 30 and 40k there is alot of irony and based on what ADB stated how Angron would feel about Russ, I find it ironic that eventually (present time) he becomes a lapdog of Khorne.

 

I think it's pretty deniable, Rags. You have to remember, this isn't a Versus situation. It's not about Russ looking better than Angron, or vice versa.

 

There's no conclusive proof that Angron is the "lapdog" of Khorne. For all we know, he's exactly where he wants to be, and has no master in the way we understand it at all. He's an ascended entity in service to a god that embodies a primeval human emotion, and that's really all we know. Now, depending on one's perception of the Chaos gods, that can be as torment-wracked or as free as imaginable, or somewhere inbetween, and in the setting itself, characters are going to sneer at one another for their fates.

 

But with an objective look outside it, we really need to avoid "MY LEGION! MY PRIMARCH! YEAH!" bias.

 

Russ is not the "lapdog" of the Emperor. However, he was a primarch who valued service and loyalty to a more powerful master, and could be relied upon to obey when many others couldn't, and they wanted greater independence than Russ ever did. There's no need to turn that into a weakness (even when his brothers will see it as one), but similarly, there's no need to turn Angron's fate into a sneered-at weakness as well.

 

The original thrust of this thread already has Russ looking unrealistically hardcore and badass in the eyes of many, and I was explaining why it's actually a balance between the primarchs.

[Lord Ragnarok]

You must have misunderstood me. I have not been fanboying. My opinion if chaos is that anyone who follows chaos is a lapdog, or at least a

Slave. I never said anything out of bias.

[A D-B]

You must have misunderstood me. I have not been fanboying. My opinion if chaos is that anyone who follows chaos is a lapdog, or at least a

Slave. I never said anything out of bias.

 

That's... I mean, read what you just wrote. That's pretty one-sided. Your opinion is so strong that it makes your comments on Angron biased. And bear in mind how you often do actually post. You say "we" in reference to the Space Wolves, you refused to see them as hypocrites when they objectively were, and when Russ was already bigged up as hardcore and more badass than the others, you refuted an attempt at balance by deriding the other primarch I mentioned as a thematic equal. You can probably see at least a little imbalance, there.

 

This is one of those situations where perceptions are just going to differ. I see the primarchs' situations as fairly balanced, with little difference in the degree of servitude Russ takes over Angron's. Russ's is certainly nobler, but that's because he's a hero of the drama, and that's what heroes do. Either way, I like the idea that they see each other as weaker (all of them; they're not happy brothers, any of the 18) but it's mostly smoke and mirrors.

[Marshal Rohr]

I thought Dorn and Guilliman got on pretty well? And Horus was supposed to be close with both Dorn and Sanguinius.

 

Khan and Russ got along too didnt they?

 

Granted, if I found out WLK and I were actually brothers today after having spent my whole life by myself I'd doubt there would be instant bff-mode.

[Lord Ragnarok]

You must have misunderstood me. I have not been fanboying. My opinion if chaos is that anyone who follows chaos is a lapdog, or at least a

Slave. I never said anything out of bias.

 

That's... I mean, read what you just wrote. That's pretty one-sided. Your opinion is so strong that it makes your comments on Angron biased. And bear in mind how you often do actually post. You say "we" in reference to the Space Wolves, you refused to see them as hypocrites when they objectively were, and when Russ was already bigged up as hardcore and more badass than the others, you refuted an attempt at balance by deriding the other primarch I mentioned as a thematic equal. You can probably see at least a little imbalance, there.

 

This is one of those situations where perceptions are just going to differ. I see the primarchs' situations as fairly balanced, with little difference in the degree of servitude Russ takes over Angron's. Russ's is certainly nobler, but that's because he's a hero of the drama, and that's what heroes do. Either way, I like the idea that they see each other as weaker (all of them; they're not happy brothers, any of the 18) but it's mostly smoke and mirrors.

 

I didn't refuse to see them as hypocrites, I kept asking "how, why, when" but all I got was "they are hypocrites". I was looking for specific passages in the book (perhaps I missed it or don't remember). Are you saying my chaos statement is Biased? I do feel that way, due to the overwhelming power of chaos. My second favorite army is Red Corsairs, so I'm not anti chaos, no bias there.

In terms of "We, us, it, them" sorry, SW's are my arm first and foremost, however, I like facts....If some passage says Russ, paints his nails red, and wears a tutu to bed, I have no option to say "yes, it is so". That said, I often go between looking at things as fan, and looking at things outside in.... however facts always rule.

 

With respect to some things in the book/angron...

 

1. The only place I remember where SW's could be hypocrites would be when they ventured into Kasper's mind where (can't remember name) went bestial. That was after Nikea and any psychic use was strictly forbidden. With how things went on in "Oath of Moment" I'd certainly would say SW's were going against the rules and not simply bending them.

 

2. With respect to Angron/and being a lap dog...I think we would need to agree to disagree, that is all about opinions.

 

3. With respect to SW's being lapdogs, I think yes, this is their greatest strength and greatest weakness at the same time. I think them being so loyal does make them the best at the role as defined in the book. At first I was also along them same lines of thinking about the NL's and WE and perhaps the IW as also being "executioners" but I they are too unreliable based on what was discussed earlier. Or, perhaps, the best executioners in certain circumstances. I still feel NL's are a more terrifying force as is it is their "profession" while SW's are just an unstoppable force that you will not be able to reason with whatsoever( "T.sons" comment about Russ making his oath and not turning back and in "P.Burns" where he Eldar tried to sue for peace on deaf ears. And by unstoppable I mean how others would perceive SWs once they were sent loose on a target.

[Captain Idaho]

Think A D-B is deliberately making a sweeping statement to get his point across that the Primarchs aren't a happy fraternity. Sure some got on but it seems only Horus and maybe Sanguinius, got on with the majority. Even if a bunch of them did get on, the problem was they were all Alpha-Males and considered themselves such. Even the humbler ones knew they were better than everyone and thought they were better than their peers.

 

Bearing this in mind just makes the betrayal of Horus all the more believable, and the death of Sanguinius all the more tragic.

 

@ Lord Ragnarok: It's human nature to be tribal with everything. We are all equal of being fan boys in a subtle sense sometimes, just by being, well, fans talking about our favourite hobby. A D-B and no-one else think you are being a stubborn fan-boi in the sense of ingorance, but maybe a little defensive at the notion of a fault in your favourite Legion/Chapter/Primarch?

 

To bring up a relevant point, speaking to the likes of Grey Mage, yourself, Marshall2 Crusaders, Octavalug and Sigismund Himself (and many others) has enlightened me to the idea that a flawed Guilliman (perhaps not to the extent in some peoples eyes) is interesting and realistic. It reads well and makes for a character I can appreciate and hero worship! I thank you all for that even if we have had a bumpy few topics in the past :P

[Lord Ragnarok]

Think A D-B is deliberately making a sweeping statement to get his point across that the Primarchs aren't a happy fraternity. Sure some got on but it seems only Horus and maybe Sanguinius, got on with the majority. Even if a bunch of them did get on, the problem was they were all Alpha-Males and considered themselves such. Even the humbler ones knew they were better than everyone and thought they were better than their peers.

 

Bearing this in mind just makes the betrayal of Horus all the more believable, and the death of Sanguinius all the more tragic.

 

@ Lord Ragnarok: It's human nature to be tribal with everything. We are all equal of being fan boys in a subtle sense sometimes, just by being, well, fans talking about our favourite hobby. A D-B and no-one else think you are being a stubborn fan-boi in the sense of ingorance, but maybe a little defensive at the notion of a fault in your favourite Legion/Chapter/Primarch?

 

To bring up a relevant point, speaking to the likes of Grey Mage, yourself, Marshall2 Crusaders, Octavalug and Sigismund Himself (and many others) has enlightened me to the idea that a flawed Guilliman (perhaps not to the extent in some peoples eyes) is interesting and realistic. It reads well and makes for a character I can appreciate and hero worship! I thank you all for that even if we have had a bumpy few topics in the past <_<

 

Hmmmm. Defensive, depends on what was being said which I was responding. I didn't take any offense of my favorite chapter/legion in this thread. I question some commentary as I was not thinking along the same lines. I think I also outlined pretty well my need for "facts". Perhaps I was being a too spartan in my questions of "how, why?" Sometimes I like being simple. Anyways, I outlined pretty well above. Let's not take disagreement with ideas as being defensive.

 

 

In tems of flaws in Primarchs, absolutely. They must have strong flaws to counteract such power. It makes them more believable and gives them more character. Ultimately HH occurred, so there should be enough fallibility to go around, including good ole Empy.

[Captain Idaho]

Well I was just trying to be an intermedary! You are a Space Wolf of course, so being spartan with your responses goes without saying!

 

I didn't think you were being too defensive, and I doubt A D-B was, just sometimes it comes across as such in a lively discussion, from all of us. A D-B was likely just pointing out how people say things which come across in the wrong way, despite our best intentions, as being protective and tribal. Essentially, there are many impressionable youths out there and someone with as much clout as yourself can sway their reactions with a mere word! <_<