Prospero Burns

[Brannick]

I am sure we will get to know a lot more about the World Eaters/Angron when Aaron tackles them within a Horus Heresy novel, what, c'mon, who wouldn't want dibs on writing that one?

 

:(

[2000AD]

@Lord Rags: As much as it pains me to admit it, at this point in the series, the Wolves of Fenris are guilty of hypocrisy.

 

Regardless of how we justify it, we used psychic abilities in our efforts to bring to justice a Primarch and his Legion of using psychic abilities. While older sources paint the T-Sons as being disciplined for using sorcery (and make a point to mention the difference of sorcery and the psychic), this has seem to be removed from the most currrent version.

 

WLK

 

 

How so?

 

The fact that A Thousand Sons and the Collected Visions states that the Emperor outlaws all psychic use by the Legions, not merely sorcery. The Space Wolves knowingly violated this order, but attempt to rationalise it as "they have control over it", something irrelevant to the fact that they've broken the Edict. They then prosecute Magnus for using psychic powers, while doing it themselves. Therefore, they are hypocrites.

 

 

Indeed...... massive hypocrites and seemingly totally oblivious to it.

[2000AD]

Another disappointment about this book was the fact that the fluff states that Horus interceded the Emperors order and persuaded Russ to go into full attack mode on Prospero........ the dialogue on this and the Emperors coversation with Russ should have been in the book...... cant believe they were omitted.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

we get it know, the Wolves were hyprocrits, can we move on now? :teehee:

 

WLK

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

You must have misunderstood me. I have not been fanboying. My opinion if chaos is that anyone who follows chaos is a lapdog, or at least a

Slave. I never said anything out of bias.

 

That very statement exemplifies what it is to have a bias, you know. :teehee:

[Lord Ragnarok]

You must have misunderstood me. I have not been fanboying. My opinion if chaos is that anyone who follows chaos is a lapdog, or at least a

Slave. I never said anything out of bias.

 

That very statement exemplifies what it is to have a bias, you know. ^_^

 

No, I do not know. We can agree to disagree and move on.

............

Actually after some pondering, websters and reflection you are correct. That statement is biased. I suppose some followers of the chaos gods are not lapdogs or slaves(until they die and give up their soul), and use chaos vs being used (Word Bearers). my apologies. I recognize my failing and will be sure to correct it. ;)

[Candleshoes]

My opinion if chaos is that anyone who follows chaos is a lapdog, or at least a

Slave.

 

It is tough to be the lapdog of a primordial force, in your case of Angron. There are no temples to Khorne, rather, pure violence and towered aggression, no pagentry or hidden language, no higher or righteous cause that requires conviction. His service begins and ends in ending life. He, it, only asks for what Angron lives for, bloodshed and martial victory. Where, what, when, how and who it comes from, means nothing, as long as it flows. This is life, and it has always been Angron's. This is not a one sided relationship, and in no way is it slave/master. Angron's existence in itself "serves", or rather, his continued life of victory and combat strengthens all that Khorne stands for.

 

As for the Russ vs Angron debates, tarot characteristic wise, Russ (The Last Judgement) was always superficially similar to Angron (The Tower), but always had far more focus and clarity of purpose in the actions that he took. As with all families, the brothers can be similar, but the slightest faults or differences really take people in different directions.

[2000AD]

It is tough to be the lapdog of a primordial force, in your case of Angron. There are no temples to Khorne, rather, pure violence and towered aggression, no pagentry or hidden language, no higher or righteous cause that requires conviction. His service begins and ends in ending life. He, it, only asks for what Angron lives for, bloodshed and martial victory. Where, what, when, how and who it comes from, means nothing, as long as it flows. This is life, and it has always been Angron's. This is not a one sided relationship, and in no way is it slave/master. Angron's existence in itself "serves", or rather, his continued life of victory and combat strengthens all that Khorne stands for.

 

Exactly..... hence the reason why the fluff states that Angron was the first to side with Horus and the easiest to persaude.

 

Not only did he not respect the Emperors martial code but the transition to Khorne was no transition at all...... its like a murderer getting a paid job as a.... murderer!!!..... Hardly taxing.....

[Serenad]

You must have misunderstood me. I have not been fanboying. My opinion if chaos is that anyone who follows chaos is a lapdog, or at least a

Slave. I never said anything out of bias.

 

That's... I mean, read what you just wrote. That's pretty one-sided. Your opinion is so strong that it makes your comments on Angron biased. And bear in mind how you often do actually post. You say "we" in reference to the Space Wolves, you refused to see them as hypocrites when they objectively were, and when Russ was already bigged up as hardcore and more badass than the others, you refuted an attempt at balance by deriding the other primarch I mentioned as a thematic equal. You can probably see at least a little imbalance, there.

 

This is one of those situations where perceptions are just going to differ. I see the primarchs' situations as fairly balanced, with little difference in the degree of servitude Russ takes over Angron's. Russ's is certainly nobler, but that's because he's a hero of the drama, and that's what heroes do. Either way, I like the idea that they see each other as weaker (all of them; they're not happy brothers, any of the 18) but it's mostly smoke and mirrors.

 

I didn't refuse to see them as hypocrites, I kept asking "how, why, when" but all I got was "they are hypocrites". I was looking for specific passages in the book (perhaps I missed it or don't remember). Are you saying my chaos statement is Biased? I do feel that way, due to the overwhelming power of chaos. My second favorite army is Red Corsairs, so I'm not anti chaos, no bias there.

In terms of "We, us, it, them" sorry, SW's are my arm first and foremost, however, I like facts....If some passage says Russ, paints his nails red, and wears a tutu to bed, I have no option to say "yes, it is so". That said, I often go between looking at things as fan, and looking at things outside in.... however facts always rule.

 

With respect to some things in the book/angron...

 

1. The only place I remember where SW's could be hypocrites would be when they ventured into Kasper's mind where (can't remember name) went bestial. That was after Nikea and any psychic use was strictly forbidden. With how things went on in "Oath of Moment" I'd certainly would say SW's were going against the rules and not simply bending them.

 

2. With respect to Angron/and being a lap dog...I think we would need to agree to disagree, that is all about opinions.

 

3. With respect to SW's being lapdogs, I think yes, this is their greatest strength and greatest weakness at the same time. I think them being so loyal does make them the best at the role as defined in the book. At first I was also along them same lines of thinking about the NL's and WE and perhaps the IW as also being "executioners" but I they are too unreliable based on what was discussed earlier. Or, perhaps, the best executioners in certain circumstances. I still feel NL's are a more terrifying force as is it is their "profession" while SW's are just an unstoppable force that you will not be able to reason with whatsoever( "T.sons" comment about Russ making his oath and not turning back and in "P.Burns" where he Eldar tried to sue for peace on deaf ears. And by unstoppable I mean how others would perceive SWs once they were sent loose on a target.

 

If i may interject here regarding Angron, i do not agree with him beeing the typical lapdog, as can be said for Magnus, Lorgar, Fulgrim and Mortarion.

 

Angron is a psychotic killer due to his implants and personality, his only lust in life is for spilling blood. now that happens to be what khorne wants too so they natually become bonded, however i am quite sure khorne does neither order Angorn around, or that Angron feels beholden to Khorne, there is simply no need for that.

 

Angron would do the same thing he does today with or without Khorne.

[TheNightHawk]

Magnus is arrogant, and Lorgar is insecure. Because the primarchs are not perfect, they never have been and they never will. The primarchs were made to be like the emperor, in different ways.

 

Magnus' knowledge of the warp and mastery of it is greater than the Emperors, or at least was getting there, he was a more powerful psyker, the emperor created him to be so.

 

They all doubted themselves and knew their failings and it sometimes crushed them. Lorgar was never able to get past his short comings, whereas Horus was, until he lay dying and gave himself to chaos. But he was master of himself which was why he was the perfect choice, if not the most powerful they could have used.

 

 

The emperor shaped each of his sons to fill in a different role within the Imperium, and most did and worked towards what he planned but due to the Heresy they never did entirely. If sanguinnius had survived for example its likely the imperium wouldn't be the stagnant empire ruled by a corpse.

[Ethrion]

Magnus is arrogant, and Lorgar is insecure. Because the primarchs are not perfect, they never have been and they never will. The primarchs were made to be like the emperor, in different ways.

 

Magnus' knowledge of the warp and mastery of it is greater than the Emperors, or at least was getting there, he was a more powerful psyker, the emperor created him to be so.

 

They all doubted themselves and knew their failings and it sometimes crushed them. Lorgar was never able to get past his short comings, whereas Horus was, until he lay dying and gave himself to chaos. But he was master of himself which was why he was the perfect choice, if not the most powerful they could have used.

 

 

The emperor shaped each of his sons to fill in a different role within the Imperium, and most did and worked towards what he planned but due to the Heresy they never did entirely. If sanguinnius had survived for example its likely the imperium wouldn't be the stagnant empire ruled by a corpse.

I agree with everything you said except for the part about Magnus being or eventually being greater at warp knowledge/mastery than the Emperor. The Emperor's power and/or knowledge is unfathomable and it was precisely the primarchs arrogance at believing themselves to be better or know better than their father that ultimately was their undoing.

 

Case in point, Magnus breaking all the psychic seals and whatnot to warn the Emperor about Horus. He thought he'd found a secret portal that his father didn't know about, thought he was treading new ground, however as soon as he breaks through he instantly realizes what a terrible mistake he made and that the Emperor already knew about the webway and that he had wrecked everything in his hubris.

 

The Emperor was always greater than his sons in every aspect of his being, psychically, physically etc.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Magnus' knowledge of the warp and mastery of it is greater than the Emperors, or at least was getting there, he was a more powerful psyker, the emperor created him to be so.

What? I don't think so...if by knowledge and mastery you mean 'sorcery', something that the Emperor quite probably practiced sometime in the pre-Strife era, maybe. AFAIK there's no actual power level comparison, but it's generally accepted (I think?) that the Primarchs, while facets of the Emperor's being, never actually excelled past his own power in any given area.

[Billuriye]

While it's obvious that Magnus can't even come close to Emperor's psychic potency, his librarian project had merits and he was more insightful on the matter. Loyalists got shafted by Nikean edict, hard.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

While it's obvious that Magnus can't even come close to Emperor's psychic potency, his librarian project had merits and he was more insightful on the matter. Loyalists got shafted by Nikean edict, hard.

 

To be fair, we never really saw the opposition's prepared agrgument against Magnus as Ahriman had conviently fainted before they could start.

 

WLK

[TheNightHawk]

I agree with everything you said except for the part about Magnus being or eventually being greater at warp knowledge/mastery than the Emperor. The Emperor's power and/or knowledge is unfathomable and it was precisely the primarchs arrogance at believing themselves to be better or know better than their father that ultimately was their undoing.

 

Case in point, Magnus breaking all the psychic seals and whatnot to warn the Emperor about Horus. He thought he'd found a secret portal that his father didn't know about, thought he was treading new ground, however as soon as he breaks through he instantly realizes what a terrible mistake he made and that the Emperor already knew about the webway and that he had wrecked everything in his hubris.

 

The Emperor was always greater than his sons in every aspect of his being, psychically, physically etc.

 

The Emperor was greater than his sons but he made them to be greater than him, and they had the potential to be. If the heresy hadn't have happened then his sons would have each surpassed him in the areas they were made to be excellent in. Magnus came to the emperor about the webway prior to Ullanor iirc, and he broke the seals to warn the emperor of Horus not to tell him of the webway. The Emperor had planned for Magnus to be on the throne instead, as he knew Magnus would be more useful and had a greater affinity with the warp, however Magnus was naive and not as skilled as the emperor.

 

Perhaps I should have said that his sons were naturally more talented in the areas than the emperor rather than being better than he was, since they lack his knowledge and experience they can't fully equal him or surpass him, but with time, that they weren't afforded, maybe they could have. I mean we can assume the Emperor couldn't have killed Horus had Sanguinnius not broken through the armour previously.

 

I will admit that I may have read too much into this in order to have arrived at this conclusion, and I honestly can't remember if it was the IA, collected visions of the HH novels which gave me this theory.

[Billuriye]

Dude, Emperor is a league of his own. None of the primarchs can hold a candle to him. At least not without some support eg. Chaos Gods. He blinks Greater Daemons out of existence, makes a legion bend their knees effortlessly, erases souls, fully heals people, gives eyes and plays chess while combating warp powers in golden throne etc.

[Ethrion]

I agree with everything you said except for the part about Magnus being or eventually being greater at warp knowledge/mastery than the Emperor. The Emperor's power and/or knowledge is unfathomable and it was precisely the primarchs arrogance at believing themselves to be better or know better than their father that ultimately was their undoing.

 

Case in point, Magnus breaking all the psychic seals and whatnot to warn the Emperor about Horus. He thought he'd found a secret portal that his father didn't know about, thought he was treading new ground, however as soon as he breaks through he instantly realizes what a terrible mistake he made and that the Emperor already knew about the webway and that he had wrecked everything in his hubris.

 

The Emperor was always greater than his sons in every aspect of his being, psychically, physically etc.

 

The Emperor was greater than his sons but he made them to be greater than him, and they had the potential to be. If the heresy hadn't have happened then his sons would have each surpassed him in the areas they were made to be excellent in. Magnus came to the emperor about the webway prior to Ullanor iirc, and he broke the seals to warn the emperor of Horus not to tell him of the webway. The Emperor had planned for Magnus to be on the throne instead, as he knew Magnus would be more useful and had a greater affinity with the warp, however Magnus was naive and not as skilled as the emperor.

 

Perhaps I should have said that his sons were naturally more talented in the areas than the emperor rather than being better than he was, since they lack his knowledge and experience they can't fully equal him or surpass him, but with time, that they weren't afforded, maybe they could have. I mean we can assume the Emperor couldn't have killed Horus had Sanguinnius not broken through the armour previously.

 

I will admit that I may have read too much into this in order to have arrived at this conclusion, and I honestly can't remember if it was the IA, collected visions of the HH novels which gave me this theory.

Yes, he made his sons to excel in each of their specific areas, but they were never made to be greater in those areas than the Emperor himself. Sure, they would be superior to each of their other brothers at said skill but not their father.

 

The Emperor had indeed intended Magnus to sit on the throne, but that doesn't then mean that Magnus was going to be better than the Emperor at doing that job. Just that he was the primarch built for that role.

 

Of course the sad fact is that with the advent of the heresy and its eventual outcome the golden throne took on the role of life support machine as well as psychic beacon. I'm sure had everything gone according to plan Magnus wouldn't have been enslaved to the device as the Emperor is now. Although thinking about it perhaps Magnus would have ultimately preferred to exist psychically from the golden throne more so than in physical form...

[Grimtooth]

To address the hypocritical claims yet again,

 

1. The newest released "canon" regarding the Edict of Nikea makes a specific differential between what was banned (librarians/Librarium/Magnus' vision for humanity). A technicality if you want to call what separates a rune priest from a librarian, but it is what it is as supported by the canon; a rune priest is not a librarian and a librarian is not a rune priest. The IA article on librarians goes as far to make the difference not only in their founding but also in their practices.

 

2. As has been pointed out, the sanction of Prospero also contained forces representative of the Emperor both in the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence, both of which were also present during the Council of Nikea. The Custodes and Sisters of Silence were not beholden to the Wolves, but the Emperor. In the event of any use of psychic powers by the Wolves during the sanction of the Thousand Sons, we have no canon written that shows sanction of the Wolves by either the Custodes or Sisters of Silence by the Emperor for their actions in the battle of Prospero.

 

Now, the above leads you not to hypocrisy on the part of the Wolves, but along a much different line that only supports the other claims that the Wolves were indeed the Emperor's executioners.

 

The Emperor understood the difference between what the Wolves employ and what was specifically banned by the Edict of Nikea far beyond what any of us can surmise. His own creation was supposedly steeped in shamanistic rituals and thus the Wolves shamanistic use of the warp mirrors his own ethos, "wisdom before power, not knowledge for power".

 

In this understanding, the rune priests of the Wolves are classed as sanctioned psykers (akin to navigators/astropaths) by the Emperor in their role as his executioners and thus were never the target of or bound by the Council of Nikea. This is also supported by what the Council of Nikea was then known to become called, "The Trial of Magnus the Red". The council never directed any action towards rune priests of the Wolves, prior, during, or after the decree. The resultant decree dismantled everything that Magnus had created with the Librariums and his vision for humanity, and apparently stopped at that point.

[Billuriye]

Well you didn't address anything. You just said the same thing that will be retorted by the same thing(stormseers) yet again. Not much of an advance here. You just can't handle the fact that your favourite legion is hypocritical. Which is fine really, all legions have chinks and faults. Dabbling in the semantics won't change the fact.

[Grimtooth]

Well you didn't address anything. You just said the same thing that will be retorted by the same thing(stormseers) yet again. Not much of an advance here. You just can't handle the fact that your favourite legion is hypocritical. Which is fine really, all legions have chinks and faults. Dabbling in the semantics won't change the fact.

 

I was waiting for the eventual Stormseer attempt.

 

Answer me this,

 

Before Magnus established the Librarium and trained librarians, did the White Scars have librarians? We do know that Magnus NEVER established a Space Wolves Librarium and was NEVER responsible for the training of rune priests. The same cannot be said of the White Scars which is why trying to apply Stormseers, who were trained under the very program established by Magnus, are considered Librarians and thus bound by the Council of Nikea.

 

And you ignore the fact that no sanction was ever levied against the Wolves despite eye witness account by the Sisters of Silence and/or the Custodes. Not to mention even ignoring Russ' feral howl that practically killed some Thousand Sons with psychic overload both on Prospero and on the avian planet. If they were not sanctioned and they have shown the use of psychic powers defying the Edict of Nikea, why were they then not sanctioned as well?

[Billuriye]

So if Rune Priests are so exemplary in their usage of warp why didn't Emperor just implore other legions to employ their practices instead of outright banning librarian department ? Surely, discarding a useful tool with zero drawbacks such as rune casting is downright idiotic.

As for Sisters of Silence and the Custodes we don't know their side and opinions do we ? It may be quite the suprise for them to see that Wolves are employing psykers. They might just as appalled by the usage of Rune Priests as well yet the urgency of task might override the sentiment. Not to mention thanks to Heresy, no possible action can be carried out against Wolves since every loyalist manpower is suddenly unexpendable for inner quabbles.

For the Leman Russ' psykery, it can be overlooked since it only affected 1kSons and was not visible like a bolt of lightning or a fireball.

[Grimtooth]

So if Rune Priests are so exemplary in their usage of warp why didn't Emperor just implore other legions to employ their practices instead of outright banning librarian department ? Surely, discarding a useful tool with zero drawbacks such as rune casting is downright idiotic.

As for Sisters of Silence and the Custodes we don't know their side and opinions do we ? It may be quite the suprise for them to see that Wolves are employing psykers. They might just as appalled by the usage of Rune Priests as well yet the urgency of task might override the sentiment. Not to mention thanks to Heresy, no possible action can be carried out against Wolves since every loyalist manpower is suddenly unexpendable for inner quabbles.

For the Leman Russ' psykery, it can be overlooked since it only affected 1kSons and was not visible like a bolt of lightning or a fireball.

 

You only have to look so far as the Emperor's speech prior to passing the edict banning librarians and the Librariums for your answer. The Space Wolves opinion of the warp mirrors the Emperor's opinion. No shortcuts to power through knowledge sought were utilized, but instead as the Emperor gained his power through wisdom. We are given a prime example of how the teachings of Magnus influenced the librarians when the librarian delegation comes forward and pleads their case which the Emperor soundly refutes.

 

It isn't about rune magic and why didnt others just adopt it. It is about the rune priests ingrained views and attitude towards the warp that differ that make them different. As I said, the rune priests views on the use of the warp practically mirror the Emperor's. It was never about a quest for knowledge to attain power for the rune priests. They acknowledge that you can go to far which is akin to the Emperor telling Magnus not to fly to long or high in the warp.

 

On a side note, I do not find it a coincidence at all that after the Council of Nikea that the only remaining legion allowed to use psychic powers also happens to be the Emperor's supposed executioners.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Circular debate of doom ceases now.