Prospero Burns

[Gree]

alright, tired of being quiet here.

 

on the invasion of prospero, yes the Wolves had control of the air. Magnus had sent his fleet far far away to not engage the Wolves. but air control wasnt as important as its being labeled as the TS has enough shields to nullify the worst of the orbital bombardment. so other than allowing the Wolves to land troops where they were needed, this advantage wasnt much of one.

 

Actually the shields where described as coming down after that. And the Thunderhawks where described as providing aerial support in addition. In fact their is orbital strikes deployed to take down the Warhound. The orbital control was a huge advantage.

 

I mean, seriously, do you have any idea how important control of space is? Imagine if the Thousand Sons fleet had been there, the actual ground invasion would have been nowhere near as sucessful.

 

now, while the Wolves had a contigent of the Adeptus Custodes and Sisters of Silence, the TS had Prospero's human defenders and the only mention I can remember of a Titan. a psychically pimped up Titan at that.

 

I recall Prospero's human defenders essentially doing not much and being steamrollered over quickly.

 

If you gave me choice between Prospero PDF and the Custodes and the Sisters, I know who I will choose.

 

And the Titan was doing damage, yes, but would have done more if the tutelaries had not screwed the Sons over at the last moment. Oh, and the book describes what sounds like an orbital strike being used against the Titan on pg. 521.

 

So the only point you have here was the Titan, and even then the Wolves had ships in orbit to deal with it. And it was a Warhound, not a Warlord, a Legion almost certainly has the ability to deal with a Warhound. You can't possibly say that the Prospero PDF was anywhere close to the Custodes or the Sisters level of skill or effectiveness.`

 

the Custodes were displayed at no more powerful than a Marine,

 

Actually not really, from what little time the Custodes appeared, they where facing the Thousand Sons Captains mostly. Otherwise they where presented as quite a threat.

 

and the SoS were killed with laughable ease.

 

The SoS where killed with laughable ease? I recall them giving the Sons quite the trouble. In fact one of them gave Phosis T'kar a pretty good fight for being a normal human without gene-enhancements.

 

the TS then had the complete power of the Warp at their command, which the Wolves had no sure fire way of canceling that out...

 

Actually yes they did, the Sisters of Silence, that was their entire purpose. Phosis T'kar even comments on it. The novel clearly depicts the Sisters being used to nulifiy the Thousand Sons.

 

And no, it was hardly the ''complete power of the warp''. The entire point of the book was that the Thousand Sons did not have the complete power.

 

and while Magnus abstained from the fighting, his Legion were letting loose with every inch of chaos tainted power they possed, and then some. they tapped so deeply into the Warp they start to mutate in their ranks.

 

Actually no, going over by the book only some of the Thousand Sons where going all out, others like Ahirman never did, or never got the chance.

 

And honestly? That does not really matter when one side has a Primarch, and yours does not.

 

so lets pretend to have a more balanced view of what happened here, mmm'kay?

 

I am, there is no way the battle of Prospero was balanced at all. Even then you forgot to adress Magnus deliberatly giving the Wolves the advantage of suprise, orbital control and even killing one of his own Captains. All of those where huge advantages.

[A D-B]

[EDIT]: Sorry, Gree. I hadn't read your post before I posted. Everything I said is pretty much the same; my apologies, dude.

 

alright, tired of being quiet here.

 

on the invasion of prospero, yes the Wolves had control of the air. Magnus had sent his fleet far far away to not engage the Wolves. but air control wasnt as important as its being labeled as the TS has enough shields to nullify the worst of the orbital bombardment. so other than allowing the Wolves to land troops where they were needed, this advantage wasnt much of one.

 

now, while the Wolves had a contigent of the Adeptus Custodes and Sisters of Silence, the TS had Prospero's human defenders and the only mention I can remember of a Titan. a psychically pimped up Titan at that. the Custodes were displayed at no more powerful than a Marine, and the SoS were killed with laughable ease. the TS then had the complete power of the Warp at their command, which the Wolves had no sure fire way of canceling that out...and while Magnus abstained from the fighting, his Legion were letting loose with every inch of chaos tainted power they possed, and then some. they tapped so deeply into the Warp they start to mutate in their ranks.

 

so lets pretend to have a more balanced view of what happened here, mmm'kay?

 

Sorrrrrt of.

 

It was, ultimately, an absolutely ferocious imbalance. The 'defence' (such as it was) was really nothing more than the Legion, without its primarch, trying to organise the defenders of a city that was already halfway to falling. They had literally no chance to win; the Thousand Sons could do little more than stave off defeat for a little while - which they actually did.

 

But the tally of advantages held by the Wolves was pretty comprehensive:

 

1. The strongest protection of any world is its orbital defences, comprised of defence platforms; the Legion's own armada; and satellites with their own defences and early warning systems. The Space Wolves ignored all of this, because Magnus never activated it.

 

2. The Space Wolves were led by their primarch. The Thousand Sons were actively betrayed by theirs. Space Wolf forces on the ground were led by a preternaturally-intelligent general, while the Thousand Sons had to deal with the emotional weight of their primarch wanting them to die - and indeed, the knowledge that he'd killed some of them, at one point.

 

3. Tizca's full defences were never brought to bear, because the city was falling - with horrendous casualties to civilians and Spireguard defence forces - by the time the Thousand Sons could organise a defence.

 

4. The Thousand Sons were categorically nullified by proximity to the Sisters of Silence.

 

5. The Space Wolves had Custodians as allies.

 

6. [Edit]: The Space Wolves were capable of orbital bombardment.

 

 

Adding that all together, and you've got a pretty insane advantage. In what other war would the enemy be able to suddenly appear with their entire army in the middle of the defenders' city? And that would be the moment war was declared, too - the defenders would have no idea they were about to be invaded.

 

And once the attackers did it, how could they possibly lose?

[Gree]

[EDIT]: Sorry, Gree. I hadn't read your post before I posted. Everything I said is pretty much the same; my apologies, dude.

 

Oh, that's perfectly fine. I don't mind.

 

 

Anyway, going back on topic, I do want to cross-refernce what I read in A Thousand Sons with

what little of the battle we'll see in Prospero Burns.

I would like to see the Wolves's expectations at least.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

alright,

 

the Adeptus Custodes andpower level: i have read they only lost 3 guys in the GC, then i have read them being cut down by the superior numbers of the TS. so i am kinda on the fence with how awesome they are (which means, either very awesome or extremely awesome, but i havent figured which yet)

 

the SoS were instruemental in shutting down the TS powers, but once identified, they fell with rediculous ease. they had been presented in other works as being pretty BAMF, but here were ripped apart by a single bolter shot. so again, eh.

 

Prospero Guard. yes, they were fodder, but as gretchin prove, enough fodder can drop a superior opponent. I am not going to dismiss any combatant who was fighting for their families and homes, even if the book did.

 

the TS power. maybe "complete power" was poorly worded...so how about unleashing their power to the fullest after being told to repress and hide it.

 

but what i am going to end this with, is that while the Wolves had the distinct advantage (i am in no ways refuting this), the TS were no push over and gave as good as they got...for a bit. it just seems that many of the previous posters were acting like the Wolves had the battle won and only took the losses they did for weak reasons. I think this cheapens both the Wolves and the Thousand Sons.

 

(I do want to see the non HH "Battle of the Fang", where the TS and SW positions are reversed, and compare what was simular and different...and why the Wolves were successful)

[Gree]

the Adeptus Custodes andpower level: i have read they only lost 3 guys in the GC, then i have read them being cut down by the superior numbers of the TS. so i am kinda on the fence with how awesome they are (which means, either very awesome or extremely awesome, but i havent figured which yet)

 

No, the Custodes lost only three guys in a battle during the Great Crusade, and even then it was a half-legend and they where led personally by the Emperor.

 

the SoS were instruemental in shutting down the TS powers, but once identified, they fell with rediculous ease. they had been presented in other works as being pretty BAMF, but here were ripped apart by a single bolter shot. so again, eh.

 

How exactly did they fall with ridiculous ease? To my knowledge they don't have power armor and they are still regular humans. A 75. caliber bolter round to the head is still going to kill them quite messily.

 

Prospero Guard. yes, they were fodder, but as gretchin prove, enough fodder can drop a superior opponent. I am not going to dismiss any combatant who was fighting for their families and homes, even if the book did.

 

Fighting for your homes and families is nice and all, but when you are normal humans caught horribly off guard by a fighting force that outclasses you in virtually every concievable way, it kind of negates that advantage.

 

but what i am going to end this with, is that while the Wolves had the distinct advantage (i am in no ways refuting this), the TS were no push over and gave as good as they got...for a bit. it just seems that many of the previous posters were acting like the Wolves had the battle won and only took the losses they did for weak reasons. I think this cheapens both the Wolves and the Thousand Sons.

 

I don't believe I ever stated that. It obviously was not easy. But nobody can deny the Wolves went in with the deck stacked heavily in their favor. the battle was decided the moment Magnus decided to screw his Legion over.

 

(I do want to see the non HH "Battle of the Fang", where the TS and SW positions are reversed, and compare what was simular and different...and why the Wolves were successful)

 

The defense of Prospero and the defense of the Fang where quite different though. The Fang's defense are a completely different story compared to Tizca, and the Thousand Sons did not have a huge number of renforcements coming to save the day at the last moment. The terrian and composition of forces would differ as well.

[Marshal Rohr]

Wait, WLK, are you saying the Space Wolves went in outnumbered and outgunned by the Thousand Sons?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Wait, WLK, are you saying the Space Wolves went in outnumbered and outgunned by the Thousand Sons?

 

No. not in any way, shape or form.

 

i had tried to say it wasnt a cake walk and the TS fought them with valor and skill, inflicting the losses they did based off the sheer desparation they felt, but ended up just being reminded of why i stay away from internet debates/discussions.

 

Seacrest, out.

 

WLK

[lords2001]

Before I start, I'll say that this is just what I have gathered from the HH series and the various GW/BL fluff over time, and as such should be considered an opinion, not the greatest of heresy :)

 

I think they were chosen as the executioners not by their superior firepower, numbers, or their supreme skill or tactics. Rather, it was their 'drive', their purpose at war - brutal and direct, uncaring of the niceities of war but not lost in rage nor losing focus due to other considerations such as casualties, honour or pride. And they will achieve their goal at any cost, especially when they think they are right - kind of like the offensive version of the Imperial Fists in regards to how they react to war.

 

In A Thousand Sons, they are called (or at least Russ is called) a spear - it can be directed and thrown, but not recalled. They will achieve their purpose - whether it be unification, the destruction of an enemy, etc no matter what the costs to others or themselves. Though this seems to be slightly changed in the new book - but I guess the rest of the fluff paints Russ as rather mercurial - prone to changes of mind and fits of passion - but I guess his nature is reconcilled by the idea that if he does think he is right, he will battle and battle until the fight is won or he is dead. Which also fits the idea of his wandering the Eye, bringing war to the forces of chaos millenia after the rest of the primarchs are dead or lost.

 

And in the end, the space wolves will battle with ferocity tinged with cunning, and allow their opponents to potentially underestimate that cunning and intelligence - as again seen in A Thousand Sons, as well as the Tales of Heresy, where a 13th company warband slowly but surely disintegrates a Dark Eldar Kabal through an indirect approach and leadup followed by a swift suprise attack to break the leadership of the Kabal. And you can see their character in that after working and fighting with the humans on the world, they then turn around and demolish the planet into compliance after being rejected by the proto-leadership of the world.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

In the end, it's just Space Wolves ego-*word remove* themselves. It's a fool who looks for logic in the chambers of a narcissistic frat.

 

Edit by Insane Psychopath - Please bare in mind this is a family friendly fourm

[mcbeaty]

where does the idea a extucutioner works alone come from.an extucutinor job is to land the death blow theres no reason why an army of sufficant size could be assambled and when the moment came in the battle to unleash the extucuionar to take the head so if say when horus turns traitor with a couple more leigons the empror reacts fast builds an army of bloodangels ultramarines or whatever you want when they break through open up and seize control the wolves drive in taken horus down. the killing blow needs to come from a leigon of martial might quick tough smart and strong world eaters would get carried awayslaughtering and nightlords couldnt be trusted to do it they seemed to be shady from the start.so if saying an army could be assambled to match numbers wise the exuctioner is the tipping point the death blow.

[mcbeaty]

this debate about numbers on each side is a no win one the thousand sons book is told from there point of view so every thing will be biased and added to they say their primarch let them come and could have wiped them out before they got there.they hardly will say he couldnt do anything to the fleet or they tried the best but they got through same with the battle to the thousands sons they will claim they killed thousands just like the wolves will claim.the clever part of the books is it tells you truths but hides facts it tells of a battle but no numbers to go alongside it i think this was done to split the fan base to create supporters of each faction and create debate.and it works it like theres a real wolves chapter and sons leigon out there trying to one up the other in the end the fact is wolves won sons lost both suffered casulties and the end result helped chaos out like what was wanted. just imagine what would have happened if russ and magnus had a chat and relised they where being played horus would have been mauled the best worriors and best sorceros being on terra when he came would have tipped it a bit.the only result you can say came from the battle is tragedy and a death blow to the Emperors possible victory

[gaurdian31]

Or it all went according the Emperor's plan.

[Lord_Caerolion]

where does the idea a extucutioner works alone come from.

 

From the fact that the one time we do see them sent to perform their 'duty', it's only them with minor Custodes and SoS support.

[mcbeaty]

maybe that was because that was all that was needed or an element of the force got postponed by horus because it was all fixed by chaos to their liking and the best outcome was for them to destroy each other

[Badaboom]

where does the idea a extucutioner works alone come from.

 

From the fact that the one time we do see them sent to perform their 'duty', it's only them with minor Custodes and SoS support.

 

Actually, the author himself mentioned that the Wolves were probably created to bring down other Legions, IIRC. This idea is old, so it might have changed, though.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The fall of Prospero was made easier than it normaly would of been due to the complete surprise achieved by Russ. By the time the Thousand Sons knew they where under attack the Wolves had established beacheads and where pushing fast and hard. They knew what they where doing, had support form the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes and fought with their usual mix of savage barbarity and wolfish cunning.

 

It didn't help that the Thousand Sons underestimated the Wolves, falling for the savage barbarian in space act. This is perhaps the Space Wolves greatest weapon, they convince the enemy that they are little more than feral world savags somehow given power armour in an act of madness by the Emperor. By the time the enemy realise the tactical and strategic acumen of the Wolvs they have lost the war.

[Trel]

The fall of Prospero was made easier than it normaly would of been due to the complete surprise achieved by Russ. By the time the Thousand Sons knew they where under attack the Wolves had established beacheads and where pushing fast and hard. They knew what they where doing, had support form the Sisters of Silence and the Custodes and fought with their usual mix of savage barbarity and wolfish cunning.

 

It didn't help that the Thousand Sons underestimated the Wolves, falling for the savage barbarian in space act. This is perhaps the Space Wolves greatest weapon, they convince the enemy that they are little more than feral world savags somehow given power armour in an act of madness by the Emperor. By the time the enemy realise the tactical and strategic acumen of the Wolvs they have lost the war.

 

Did you read "A Thousand Sons"?

 

The Legion sent to destroy the Sons doesn't matter. The result would have been the same no matter which (loyalist) Legion was sent. The Sons were dealing with a massive internal crisis. Their own Primarch was actively sabotaging their efforts. The Sons knew that their Primarch had abandoned them and had even actually murdered some of them.

 

Even then, the Space Wolves still failed at their task. Magnus and the Thousand Sons were neither eradicated nor were they brought to justice.

[Hfran Morkai]

Even then, the Space Wolves still failed at their task. Magnus and the Thousand Sons were neither eradicated nor were they brought to justice.

 

To be fair, the Wolves didn't know quite how far the Sons (as they didn't seem to know themselves) had travelled downa route destined to escape. No other Legion again could have destroyed them, as you say earlier.

 

I think people are forgetting this is the realm of Tzeentch, the bringer of change. It desired the Thousand Sons to be routed and cut off from the Imperium and perhaps he engineered fate in the matter of sending the Wolves? We won't know until the books are firmly in our hands, and even then this will still be open for discussion, as the Horus Heresy series likes open-endedness and bias.

 

I like the statement of the Wolves beleiving themselves executioners, they will carry out unsavory deeds if it is necessary. I'd think it pretty cool if it was said about any other Legion. Finally, number don't mean everything in the field of battle, its all down to how the forces are used.

[Gree]

I think people are forgetting this is the realm of Tzeentch, the bringer of change. It desired the Thousand Sons to be routed and cut off from the Imperium and perhaps he engineered fate in the matter of sending the Wolves? We won't know until the books are firmly in our hands, and even then this will still be open for discussion, as the Horus Heresy series likes open-endedness and bias.

 

 

According to the spoilers I've posted earlier Chaos's plan to to destroy both the Wolves and the Sons. Not just to turn the Sons to Chaos.

 

 

I like the statement of the Wolves beleiving themselves executioners, they will carry out unsavory deeds if it is necessary. I'd think it pretty cool if it was said about any other Legion. Finally, number don't mean everything in the field of battle, its all down to how the forces are used.

 

Not quite. It's true that it does matter how forces are used, but numbers are a vital factor when conducting tactics in a battle. Look at the Union twords the end of the American Civil War or Russia in the Second World War. In both those victories numbers played a key part.

 

While it's true that smaller, elite forces have triumped over much larger ones, that's not a set rule at all and larger forces have triumphed over smaller elite forces before.

[mcbeaty]

the emperor sent russ originaly to arrest magnus which may explain the small force i reckon if russ had stoped in orbit and asked magnus to come aboard to go to terra they had all they needed.so what did horus say to russ to convince him to attack magnus im sure russ isnt stupid and wouldnt attack unless sure of victory he doesent seem the type to throw his mens life away for nothing.so did horus promise back up was on the way or get him very angry that he got a bit carried away.

[Hyperion]

@mcbeaty - please please please use some punctuation! Your never-ending sentences are really difficult to read.

 

 

I agree completely that the 'executioner' role is how the Wolves see themselves, but surely that's the point - they are mentally prepared to do whatever is necessary.

 

Russ at the very end of the book says that marines vs marines is not that shocking to him - possibly hinting that he was the one to take down one or both of the lost legions.

 

Longfang also mentions on p243: "A role for each primarch's Legion. Defenders and champions, storm troops and praetorians... we all have our duties. Sixth Legion are the executioners. We are the last line. When all else fails, we are the ones expected to do whatever is necessary.

...We take pride in being the only Astartes who will never, under any circumstances, refuse to strike on the Allfather's behalf, no matter what the target, no matter what the cause."

 

Regarding the descriptions:

Defenders - Iron Warriors

Champions - ? Luna Wolves

Storm troopers - World Eaters

Praetorians - Imperial Fists

 

And regarding the previous list:

Heir - Guilliman

Build the defences - Perturabo

Command the armies - Horus

Guard the hearth - Dorn

Watch the distant perimeter - ? Lorgar

Control the intelligences - ? Alpharius

 

 

IIRC the Titan on Prospero was a Warlord, not a Warhound.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

IIRC the Titan on Prospero was a Warlord, not a Warhound.

 

Your recollection is incorrect, it was a Warhound.

[Hyperion]

A Thousand Sons, p41-2: "Supplicants to the pyromancers approached along a brazier-lit processional of red marble towards a mighty warlord Titan. Bearing the proud name Canis Vertex, the engine had once walked beneath the banners of Legio Astorum, its carapace emblazoned with a faded black disc haloed by a flaming blue corona."

 

Even more awesome, eh? :)

[MaveriK]

just curious, what were the exact estimate on the numbers on the Thousand Son's Legion? from known fluff and stuff.

[Clewz]

just curious, what were the exact estimate on the numbers on the Thousand Son's Legion? from known fluff and stuff.

 

Think it says they were about 9,000 (not including spireguard) before the attack