Prospero Burns

[Clewz]

According to the spoilers I've posted earlier Chaos's plan to to destroy both the Wolves and the Sons. Not just to turn the Sons to Chaos.

 

Tzeentch did offer to destroy the entire space wolves fleet in the warp but of course that could of just been a bluff

[MaveriK]

just curious, what were the exact estimate on the numbers on the Thousand Son's Legion? from known fluff and stuff.

 

Think it says they were about 9,000 (not including spireguard) before the attack

MMm, interesting! it looks like this is one of the many new changes Abnett has incorporated in the SW fluff. I've always known the Wolves to be a small legion, heck we have been all told this since C:SW 2nd Edition! or at least that's what outsiders have always been made to believed?!? I can understand each Wolf Lord having different numbers compared to other great companies, just didn't think so until the Prospero Burn novel.

 

I'm not sure how qualified a Remembrancer's account first hand can be in today's standards but, SPOILER ALERT!!!

The full force of the Sixth was something I did not believe needed strengthening. There is not an Astartes in the Imperium who can out-match a warrior of the Rout, one to one, and we held a significant numerical superiority. Much is said of Prospero’s noble Spireguard, and other auxiliary contingents, but the only true consideration was Astartes numbers, and Magnus the Red’s Legion was small compared to the Vlka Fenryka.

It was a good read, had it since last week. It was a nice sneak peak, although I enjoyed the scenes with Russ, and wished they were longer!

[A D-B]

just curious, what were the exact estimate on the numbers on the Thousand Son's Legion? from known fluff and stuff.

 

Think it says they were about 9,000 (not including spireguard) before the attack

 

Ah, but here we have a problem. Those numbers aren't necessarily accurate, because the official Legion numbers were only set in stone among the Horus Heresy team after A Thousand Sons had been published. When that novel was written, it was with the assumption that an average Legion was 10,000 warriors, and the official figure has since been set at 100,000.

[Gree]

The full force of the Sixth was something I did not believe needed strengthening. There is not an Astartes in the Imperium who can out-match a warrior of the Rout, one to one,

 

I severely doubt that. I find it hard to believe that every single Space Wolf is superior to every single other Astartes one on one.

 

Was this actually stated in the novel? Was it by the Space Wolves themselves?

 

Ah, but here we have a problem. Those numbers aren't necessarily accurate, because the official Legion numbers were only set in stone among the Horus Heresy team after A Thousand Sons had been published. When that novel was written, it was with the assumption that an average Legion was 10,000 warriors, and the official figure has since been set at 100,000.

 

So how many Thousand Sons did survive then? 10,000 out of 100,000? Roughly speaking of course?

[A D-B]

Ah, but here we have a problem. Those numbers aren't necessarily accurate, because the official Legion numbers were only set in stone among the Horus Heresy team after A Thousand Sons had been published. When that novel was written, it was with the assumption that an average Legion was 10,000 warriors, and the official figure has since been set at 100,000.

 

So how many Thousand Sons did survive then? 10,000 out of 100,000? Roughly speaking of course?

 

Good question, dude. And I genuinely don't mean to be a useless tool when I say "Uh, I have no idea...", but I have absolutely no freaking idea, and I wouldn't want to speak for Graham (or any of the others) about details of previous novels. While the figure has (finally...) been set in stone, and it unfortunately contradicts some of the Heresy series novels, it's not exactly clear how it affects the previous figures - especially in regards to something like A Thousand Sons, where numbers have such an intriguing part to play in the narrative.

 

As a rule of thumb, I take the figures in all earlier novels, and just multiply them by 10. Where the Thousand Sons are concerned, I either tell myself that not all of the Sons were on Prospero at the time, or I grit my teeth and times the figure by 10, destroying Graham's numerological coolness. The 10,000 Sons doesn't sound as good, though.

[Yogi]

Take a legion of drunks and braggarts..

 

Ask them what their purpose is..

 

Be disgusted by the complete egotistical nonsense spewed forth.

 

 

I was hoping this book would help me enjoy the Space Wolves, dial back the nonsense written about them. Make them cool rather then lame to me. Initial impressions suggest this will not occur.

 

The executioners thing seems wrong from the character of the space wolves I have read about. A legion of executioners would be completely merciless. Nearly all the back of the bus cool kids legions (i.e most of the traitor legions) fit this bill better. Ferocious? Plenty of legions have that, I would of thought World Eaters, being completely hardwired to kill would be the most ferocious.

 

So I am perplexed, Dan is no fool he must have his reason/s..

 

So I think to myself what is making Dan think Executioners? And I think "Set my dogs on you". A dog is blindly loyal to its master even with mistreatment. The space wolves are definitely loyal (but so are many other legions). So maybe they are loyal to a fault, maybe no matter what they are loyal. Ok that kinda makes sense. But I think its a poor choice due to the fact that its irritating to non Space Wolf players. Its just another notch on the pole for "Space Wolves are badasses x10." Which is boring and lame.

 

I will still buy it and read it, because Dan's books are usually quite good. But man if he pulls a Ward I will be disappointed. By this I mean stuff like the SW themselves saying they are the most ferocious badasses ever (this part is fine) but then if the book simply goes on to confirm this (by you know, having them kick the s* out of everything they come across) well then he will have pulled a ward, and I will be disappointed.

 

Here hoping Space wolves aren't retarded awesome.

[Captain Idaho]

Don't take that little comment about the Emperor's executioners put you off, tis still a good book.

 

The Space Wolves are much more interesting in the book than in the Codex, speaking from the perspective of someone who thinks much of their fluff is cheesey and silly in Codex Space Wolves (I just don't like the drinking and womanising rubbish we get in the Codex, not to mention the Thunderwolf calvary which just doesn't fit with Space Wolf background. Seriously, Space Wolves who stand up to anyone and never shy away to say what they think, but they are hiding the use of Thunder Wolf calvary in shame? So they are full of dark secrets now, who needs Dark Angels eh?)

[Clewz]

Ah, but here we have a problem. Those numbers aren't necessarily accurate, because the official Legion numbers were only set in stone among the Horus Heresy team after A Thousand Sons had been published. When that novel was written, it was with the assumption that an average Legion was 10,000 warriors, and the official figure has since been set at 100,000.

 

So how many Thousand Sons did survive then? 10,000 out of 100,000? Roughly speaking of course?

 

Good question, dude. And I genuinely don't mean to be a useless tool when I say "Uh, I have no idea...", but I have absolutely no freaking idea, and I wouldn't want to speak for Graham (or any of the others) about details of previous novels. While the figure has (finally...) been set in stone, and it unfortunately contradicts some of the Heresy series novels, it's not exactly clear how it affects the previous figures - especially in regards to something like A Thousand Sons, where numbers have such an intriguing part to play in the narrative.

 

As a rule of thumb, I take the figures in all earlier novels, and just multiply them by 10. Where the Thousand Sons are concerned, I either tell myself that not all of the Sons were on Prospero at the time, or I grit my teeth and times the figure by 10, destroying Graham's numerological coolness. The 10,000 Sons doesn't sound as good, though.

 

Think the former is probably the way to go. That way at least provides some scope as to the existence of rubric marines when the 1000 odd taken to the planet of the sorcerers are the best psychics

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

The full force of the Sixth was something I did not believe needed strengthening. There is not an Astartes in the Imperium who can out-match a warrior of the Rout, one to one,

 

I severely doubt that. I find it hard to believe that every single Space Wolf is superior to every single other Astartes one on one.

 

Was this actually stated in the novel? Was it by the Space Wolves themselves?

 

 

I'd find it hard to believe, too, considering how easily one got his ass handed to him by an Ultramarine in Battle For the Abyss, and likely as not they don't always win their one-on-ones with the Dark Angels when the time comes for their traditional duels. I'm going to read this book as being purely from the perspective of a remembrancer and not even remotely consider what's one guy's (the character's, not Dan Abnett's, let me make that clear) opinion as being relevant to actual fluff. ^_^

[MaveriK]

aye! I assume its safe to say, that every other legion/chapter says that about themselves. a perfect and recent example is on the ultramarine movie "and the greatest of them all are the ultramarines." i think these words come from a more about "personal pride" with one's legion/chapter. and our reactions still prove this today with how we view ours and look at others. I take it with a grain of salt. It's sci-fi after-all.

[Legatus]

I assume its safe to say, that every other legion/chapter says that about themselves. a perfect and recent example is on the ultramarine movie "and the greatest of them all are the ultramarines."

The narrator for that trailer was John Hurt, though, who is playing the Imperial Fists Chaplain. :huh:

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I assume its safe to say, that every other legion/chapter says that about themselves. a perfect and recent example is on the ultramarine movie "and the greatest of them all are the ultramarines."

The narrator for that trailer was John Hurt, though, who is playing the Imperial Fists Chaplain. ;)

 

The Chaplain was obviously being humble. Probably falsely modest. So yeah, he lied. :P

Probably the only error he has ever made. :)

 

just curious, what were the exact estimate on the numbers on the Thousand Son's Legion? from known fluff and stuff.

 

Think it says they were about 9,000 (not including spireguard) before the attack

 

Ah, but here we have a problem. Those numbers aren't necessarily accurate, because the official Legion numbers were only set in stone among the Horus Heresy team after A Thousand Sons had been published. When that novel was written, it was with the assumption that an average Legion was 10,000 warriors, and the official figure has since been set at 100,000.

 

Enjoy Legatus, enjoy.

 

MUAHAHAHHAHAHAHHHHAHAHHAHAHreaditandweepHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

;)

[Legatus]

I read that as: "the official figure... for Black Library novels." Apparently they were using the 10K figures in a few of the earlier novels. The one time McNeill gets something right, and he's retconned into being wrong. :)

[A D-B]

I read that as: "the official figure... for Black Library novels."

 

Negatory. Official figure for Games Workshop's IP, as decreed by the Intellectual Property Manager. Every future publication will use this figure (as the Chaos Codex currently does) - but, of course, very few publications outside BL novels deal with the Heresy's figures at all.

 

This is one of those things, dude. I completely respect your preference for the license's information to be delivered by games designers rather than novelists, but practically the only information on the Heresy is in the novel line, and it's absolutely official. This is the update to the lore, taking precedence over White Dwarf IA articles from 5-10 years ago.

[Legatus]

This is the update to the lore, taking precedence over White Dwarf IA articles from 5-10 years ago.

...or the latest Codex Space Wolves (p. 9). It also means that now the Ultramarines did not come out of the scouring at about full strength (about 25,000 warriors, creating 24 Chapters), but instead had been whittled down from being almost unscathed by the heresy to a mere 10% of their strength during those few years of the scouring*. I wonder if the later Black Library novels will explain that. It also means that all the loyalists were down from about 1,000,000 warriors to a mere 50,000 (5% of their original strength). Basically the loyalist astartes forces were all but wiped out at the end of the scouring, instead of having gathered new stregth. No wonder the High Lords did not proceed to start the Great Crusade anew.

 

 

Edit:

*The description from 2nd Edition, which is repeated in the 5th Edition Codex (p. 13) reads:

"The Ultramarines successfully held the Imperium together during a time of intense danger. Macragge was able to provide recruits at such a rate that before long the Ultramarines alone accounted for more than half the total number of Space Marines, and few were the systems where their heroism went unnoticed."

I had allways taken that as the Ultramarines actually growing in strength during that period. Regaining what little they had lost during the heresy, or possibly even growing more than they had been during the Great Crusade. But apparentrly now that means they went from near full strength (250,000) to a mere 10% of their strength (~25,000).

[A D-B]

This is the update to the lore, taking precedence over White Dwarf IA articles from 5-10 years ago.

...or the latest Codex Space Wolves (p. 9). It also means that now the Ultramarines did not come out of the scouring at about full strength (about 25,000 warriors, creating 24 Chapters), but instead had been whittled down from being almost unscathed by the heresy to a mere 10% of their strength during those few years of the scouring. I wonder if the later Black Library novels will explain that. It also means that all the loyalists were down from about 1,000,000 warriors to a mere 50,000 (5% of their original strength). Basically the loyalist astartes forces were all but wiped out at the end of the scouring, instead of having gathered new stregth. No wonder the High Lords did not proceed to start the Great Crusade anew.

 

I know what you mean. It's not exactly a retcon/update/reveal without flaw. But the original figure had its fair share of flaws, too. Neither is necessarily better than the other, but we have endless official sources conflicting over it. I think, in all honestly, I'd just crack into pieces if I'd not been able to sit at the table and beg for the answer myself.

 

I don't really think releasing such a vital background book in the form of Horus Heresy: Collected Visions is a great idea for promoting unity and understanding across the license, especially when it's decreed as the correct figures, and later codices contradict it. It lacks rules (obviously...), but that often leads people to immediately assume it's not as valid as a codex, when its validity is kind of its whole point. It was GW's way of saying "This is the Heresy!", before the novel line took that role in an even more popular direction.

 

When this comes up, it's not something I say as a "Ha!" to anyone, or because I think novels need to be recognised as something equal to a codex. GW does actually recognise Black Library and Forge World as relatively equal partners, with both considered able to generate new IP. But GW contradicts and retcons its own lore with incredible regularity, let alone BL's and FW's, so I can understand why the subsidiary companies get a bad rap on even that most basic of levels.

 

Even on a personal level, I don't personally feel beholden to many other BL novels, which is probably not that great of me, and speaks volumes of my capacity as a team player. But if it's something I loathe in a novel, I'd just ignore it or do my best not to mention it. If it was something I loathed in a codex, I'd still do my best to mention it and make it sound as cool as I could. While I'm often told there aren't tiers of "officialness", it's a prejudice I can't quite shake myself.

 

As usual, Legatus, I completely relate to what you're saying. It's not that you're wrong (you're not), or that you need to be convinced (you don't). It's that the current situation has the lore presented in a fairly ungainly way, and anyone who chooses Sources 1 and 2 over Sources A and B will come up with different numbers. One set of sources is technically "righter" and more recent, but in a license like this, who knows for how long that will stick, or when the next publication from any of the three IP-generating companies will contradict it, intentionally or otherwise.

 

I think this is one of those incidents where GW's policy of saying "It's all true and none of it is true" has to be acknowledged for the sake of sanity. It's what I do, anyway. Do I love that approach? Naw. But I like being sane.

[Legatus]

You may not be the best team player by sometimes voicing your dislike of certain Black Library publications, but you sure are quite diplomatic in how you adress such issues about canon or even specifically preferences of certain canon.

 

But I guess I know what you mean with the whole "ignoring the sources you don't like" approach. It can be so frustrating if one's favourite IP is perceived as being mistreated. One way I found to deal with the "ultramarines-core-theme-altering" Tyrannic War Veterans was that while both the 4th and 5th Edition Codex Space Marines state that they are against the teachings of the Codex Astartes, both the 4th and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines also explain at a different point how the Ultramarines are following the teachings of their Primarch to the letter or are the pinnacle of Codex adherent Chapters. Contradicting statements in the same Codex. One following the traditional and core Ultramarines theme, one going against that theme for the sake of getting extra stuff.

 

Naturally I will keep an eye on the Legion numbers in the coming Marine codices...

[Captain Idaho]

It does make sense to have a change though. The Legion numbers had to be substantial to persecute the Great Crusade of course, especially to bring 1,000,000 worlds to the Imperial fall.

 

Of course it also makes sense that the loss of the Primarchs means maintaining such numbers so difficult, which explains some what why there are "only" about a million Space Marines 10,000 years later.

[Legatus]

That leads to other issues, though. If the Traitor Legions had been at around 10,000 warriors at full strength then 300 Marines strong warbands sound like a lot. But if they had been 100,000 warriors strong, having a hundred Great Companies instead of just ten. Then you would expect more 1,000+ Warbands around. IIRC in "Soul Hunter" Abaddon, who commands the Black Crusades where forces of all Legions are united under his command, urgently requested the aid of a ~60 strong Night Lords warband, while his own forces were significantly threatened by the arrival of 3-4 loyalist Chapters. If there had been 1,000,000 Traitor Marines at full strength (even if they are at a quarter fraction of that), then Abaddon only commanding about 3,000 Traitor Marines in one of his undertakings sounds a bit odd. Also, he should have had at least 10% of the Traitor forces for his 13th Black Crusade, which at quarter strength would still have been 25,000 Traitors. How could the Cadia sector, let alone the planet, ever hope to resist that? But it would likely have to be more than just 10% of the current Chaos forces, wouldn't it?

 

I feel that most events in the 40K lore are written with the assumption that the Legions had been 10,000 strong. The most notable are certainly the 2nd Founding and the Black Crusades. I think that the retcon to higher Legion numbers makes these core 40K events much more implausible than the Great Crusade would be with 10k strong Legions, and that these events would need to be changed somewhat as well to accomodate for the altered Legion sizes.

[Pulse]

A D-B you are a great addition to the forums and i agree wholeheartedly with Legatus that you are very diplomatic with how you talk about fluff and such. Great stuff!

 

For me personally, i always thought of 10,000 as a rather small number for a legion and so automatically thought 100,000 was a more suitable number. So for me, having the numbers made offical is fantastic. :)

 

Also have to agree with Legatus in the sheer number of Astartes being killed during the Scouring. That is an epic amount, dear me, truely a scale large enough show just how cataclysmic the Scouring was, the mind boggles at the destruction wraught.

[Askari]

The only thing I hate about the 100,000 strong legion figure is that it then makes no sense how we now only have 1 million marines (maybe as much as two million if you count traitors). plus, it makes you wonder how the emperor's children got back to full strength from only 200 marines. Oh well, I can't blame the authors for working with what GW gave them.

[Yogi]

Even though it matters not what I think. The 100k number "feels" better then 10k. Things like the World eaters building a ramp out of their dead make more sense when they have so many to throw around. It also makes more sense as to why so many traitors still exist today.

[Gree]

That leads to other issues, though. If the Traitor Legions had been at around 10,000 warriors at full strength then 300 Marines strong warbands sound like a lot. But if they had been 100,000 warriors strong, having a hundred Great Companies instead of just ten. Then you would expect more 1,000+ Warbands around. IIRC in "Soul Hunter" Abaddon, who commands the Black Crusades where forces of all Legions are united under his command, urgently requested the aid of a ~60 strong Night Lords warband, while his own forces were significantly threatened by the arrival of 3-4 loyalist Chapters. If there had been 1,000,000 Traitor Marines at full strength (even if they are at a quarter fraction of that), then Abaddon only commanding about 3,000 Traitor Marines in one of his undertakings sounds a bit odd.

 

Why not?

 

The thing about Abaddon, is that he does not unite every single astartes warband under his command, as seen in Soul Hunter. Plus the raid in Soul Hunter was just that, a raid, not the actual Black Crusade. In fact Abaddon seemed to care more about Talos then the rest of the warband.

 

Also, he should have had at least 10% of the Traitor forces for his 13th Black Crusade, which at quarter strength would still have been 25,000 Traitors. How could the Cadia sector, let alone the planet, ever hope to resist that? But it would likely have to be more than just 10% of the current Chaos forces, wouldn't it?

 

Not quite. I really don't think the Traitor Legions are anywhere near the full million man strength. They went through the bloodbath of the Heresy, and then into infighting in the Eye, then followed by the breaking of half the Legions and ten thousand years or so of warfare.

 

And 25,000 Astartes is not too much for the Imperium. Ten billion Guardsmen along with some Titans and three companies of White Consuls hold off roughly 10,000 Word Bearers with cultists and daemonic support in Dark Creed. That's just an tiny, tiny slice of the Imperial military might in the Cadian Sector, let alone in the entire Imperium

 

Of course Dark Creed also lists the Black Legion as having swelled to being ten times the size of the Word Bearers. And if 10,000 Word Bearers showed up int he novel then there must be at minimum 100,000 Black Legionaries. (Granted not all of them as Horus-blooded Astartes, but they still count) and honestly? I like that idea, it makes it quite easy to insert my Black Legion warband into my own fluff and actually have justification for them having a thousand Astartes in my warband.

 

Even though it matters not what I think. The 100k number "feels" better then 10k. Things like the World eaters building a ramp out of their dead make more sense when they have so many to throw around. It also makes more sense as to why so many traitors still exist today.

 

I honestly prefer the 100,000 numbers as well. If it was 10,000 Astartes who went throguh the Heresy, the inter-legion wars in the Eye, and the millenia of warfare that followed, then I can't see more than a few hunderd maybe left.

 

For my various warbands it's easier as well to insert my Chaos Lord as the former Captain of say the 72nd Company in the Luna Wolves Legion, and reasonably have it fit in, as well as allowing to have a decent strength warband. I would like to think of my warband as part of the ''shared universe'' of 40k players as a whole, and honestly, the ten thousand man numbers make it much smaller for me.

 

In fact, reading the beatings the Legions take in the Horus Heresy novels makes me wonder how the 10,000 Legions would have suvived extinction before the end of the Scouring. Thousands of Astartes have already been lost in the first four books so far, to say nothing of the Age of Darkness and the Seige of Terra and the warfare that would follow.

 

Of course that's just my opinion.

[Legatus]

Also, he should have had at least 10% of the Traitor forces for his 13th Black Crusade, which at quarter strength would still have been 25,000 Traitors. How could the Cadia sector, let alone the planet, ever hope to resist that? But it would likely have to be more than just 10% of the current Chaos forces, wouldn't it?

Not quite. I really don't think the Traitor Legions are anywhere near the full million man strength. They went through the bloodbath of the Heresy, and then into infighting in the Eye, then followed by the breaking of half the Legions and ten thousand years or so of warfare.

Which is why for my example I assumed that the Traitor forces are at about a quarter of their original strength. 250,000 remaining of the formerly ~1,000,000. 10% of that being 25,000.

 

 

And 25,000 Astartes is not too much for the Imperium.

According to the Codex Eye of Terror there had been about 16 Chapters worth of Marines been accounted for during the 13th Black Crusade. If Abaddon would have commanded 10% or more of the existing Traitor forces in the 13th Black Crusade, he would have had about twice that number. If, on the other hand, the Legions had originally amounted to 100,000 Astartes in total (not per Legion), and about half of that would remain today, then hacing 16,000 Astartes himself would have amounted to Abaddon commanding about 30% of the Traitor Forces (60% if the Traitor forces are only at a quarter from their original strength). Those are reasonable numbers. The traitors already outnumbering the loyalists whith only 10% of the existing forces is a bit excessive.

 

 

In fact, reading the beatings the Legions take in the Horus Heresy novels

Well, that's not really a valid argument, is it? Some of them were already working with the large Legion sizes. The casualties described might have been different if they had worked with the traditional numbers.

[Gree]

According to the Codex Eye of Terror there had been about 16 Chapters worth of Marines been accounted for during the 13th Black Crusade.

 

That's at the start of the Black Crusade. Index Astartes: Humanity's Shield, mentions 20 Astartes Chapters and more Astartes chapters arriving eventually.

 

The traitors already outnumbering the loyalists whith only 10% of the existing forces is a bit excessive.

 

I don't see how. Especially if more chapters arrive. You can't expect the Imperium just to have 16 (or 20) chapters only at the Cadian Gate for the entire conflict. I would be sending out calls to chapters all around the Imperium. And I would expect many Astartes from many chapters across the Imperium to arrive.

 

Well, that's not really a valid argument, is it? Some of them were already working with the large Legion sizes. The casualties described might have been different if they had worked with the traditional numbers.

 

I don't recall presenting that portion of my post as an argument. I was talking more about my personal opinion in the latter half of my post.