Prospero Burns

[Legatus]

That's at the start of the Black Crusade. Index Astartes: Humanity's Shield, mentions 20 Astartes Chapters and more Astartes chapters arriving eventually.

The Codex Eye of Terror lists 23 Chapters and points out that there were more involved, but they were not all present in full. Some were contributing as few as a single company (like the Iron Knights and the Ultramarines). About half of the listed Chapters were present in full.

 

 

The traitors already outnumbering the loyalists whith only 10% of the existing forces is a bit excessive.

I don't see how.

Because 10% ist just an arbitrary figure I have been throwing up there. The Black Crusades are huge undertakings where pretty much every Legion is participating. It could be 30% of all the Traitor Astartes forces. Especially since the Codex Eye of Terror was written in the wake of the 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines and seemed to carry the notion that it was not merely "Iron Warrior Warbands" that were involved, but "the Iron Warriors". And the Chaos forces are not scattered all over the Galaxy like the loyalists are, after all. They are all bunched up in the Eye of Terror for the most part. 30% of a quarter (also just an arbitrary figure of mine) of the total strength of the Legions would amount to 75,000 Chaos Marines. They would have overrun Cadia in under a week if they really meant it.

 

 

I don't recall presenting that portion of my post as an argument. I was talking more about my personal opinion in the latter half of my post.

Then apparently your personal opinion that 100,000 strong legions feels more appropriate is based on a novel based on 100,000 strong legions. Yes, I can see why 100,000 strong Legions would feel more appropriate in a novel based on 100,000 strong Legions.

[Marshal Rohr]

Another thing we may be missing is that the 2nd Founding may have been much larger than originally thought...

[Gree]

That's at the start of the Black Crusade. Index Astartes: Humanity's Shield, mentions 20 Astartes Chapters and more Astartes chapters arriving eventually.

The Codex Eye of Terror lists 23 Chapters and points out that there were more involved, but they were not all present in full. Some were contributing as few as a single company (like the Iron Knights and the Ultramarines). About half of the listed Chapters were present in full.

 

I know that. And we can expect many more to arrive as the 13th progresses.

 

Because 10% ist just an arbitrary figure I have been throwing up there. The Black Crusades are huge undertakings where pretty much every Legion is participating.

 

Actually no. Codex Chaos Space Marines 3.5 states that Abaddon's Black Crusades range from small elite raids to massive invasions. Case in point the Gothic War, which was just on one sector and was mostly naval action.

 

Of course the 13th was a massive invasion, we know that.

 

Especially since the Codex Eye of Terror was written in the wake of the 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines and seemed to carry the notion that it was not merely "Iron Warrior Warbands" that were involved, but "the Iron Warriors".

 

Perhaps, but the force dispostions seem to be from an Imperial POV. They would not know about the Iron Warrior's deal with Abaddon.

 

They are all bunched up in the Eye of Terror for the most part. 30% of a quarter (also just an arbitrary figure of mine) of the total strength of the Legions would amount to 75,000 Chaos Marines. They would have overrun Cadia in under a week if they really meant it.

 

Nah, 75,000 probably would not have done that. You can't throw everybody at Cadia, when the Black Crusades strike it's everywhere, and the Imperium has enough cannon fodder in the Cadian Sector to match both the mutant hordes, the daemons and the Chaos Marines, check out my Dark Creed example as I mentioned earlier. 10,000 Word Bearers are thrown at a single solar system and are getting fairly evenly matched by ten billion Guardsmen plus Astartes support. In fact the Black Legion alone in that novel number at least 90,000 going by character's comments.

 

If you threw everybody at Cadia you have the potential of getting cut off and encircled. Read the Newsletters for how the whole crusade went. It was across the Cadia sector and more. (the Death by a Thousand Cuts newsletter mentions 12 sectors invovled in the whole Crusade).

 

Hunderds of thousands of Astartes on the Chaos side is impressive, yes, but the Imperium can throw tens of thousands of needed and then spam billions if not trillions of Guardsmen.

 

Then apparently your personal opinion that 100,000 strong legions feels more appropriate is based on a novel based on 100,000 strong legions. Yes, I can see why 100,000 strong Legions would feel more appropriate in a novel based on 100,000 strong Legions.

 

Actually I was more talking about how in some novels (Galaxy in Flames, Fulgrim) had the 10,000 Astartes numbers and then I was kind of linking that overall of how that fit into my own personal warband fluff.

 

Let me rephrase it to be clearer then. Some novels (Galaxy in Flames, Fulgrim) have Legions numbering 10,000 Astartes, yet in those same novels take a hell of a beating. I am aware other novels present different numbers (and I do wish they would be consistant) but overall since I've drawn my warband's fluff heavily form those novels I would prefer the 100,000 number as it fit's my own personal warband fluff better.

 

But if course I really don't understand why you are focusing about that at all. It's simply my personal opinion on how it fits into my own warband fluff.

[Legatus]

Because 10% ist just an arbitrary figure I have been throwing up there. The Black Crusades are huge undertakings where pretty much every Legion is participating.

Actually no. Codex Chaos Space Marines 3.5 states that Abaddon's Black Crusades range from small elite raids to massive invasions. Case in point the gothic War, which was just on one sector and was mostly naval action.

According to the 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines, Black Crusades can be "ranging in scales from raids carried out by small, elite companies of Black Legionnaires, to great invasions in which all of the Traitor Legions (!) are united under a single banner"

 

Still assuming the "quarter of their original strength" figure, those particular Black Crusades would have had about 250,000 Chaos Marines invading imperial space. The 20 Chapters stationed around the Eye of Terror are a drop in the ocean against that. On the other hand, with 10,000 strong Legions it would have amounted to 25,000 Chaos Marines, which would have been possible for the 20 guarding Chapters to have an impact on, and being probably the size of the 13th Black Crusade.

 

 

---

 

Another issue with the 100,000 Numbers: Space Wolves and Salamanders.

 

I mean, I can understand if GW or BL writers are dismissing the old Iron Warriors Index Astartes where the Legion was said to have had twelve Grand Companies of 1,000 warriors each. But it is a traditional distinct element of the Space Wolves and the Salamanders Chapter that they are still organised similarly to how their Legions formerly had been. In case of the Space Wolves it had originally been 13 Great Companies, but they had been bigger in size, while the Salamanders traditionally have one Company for each of teh seven settlements on their Homeworld Nocturne.

 

With the 10,000 strong Legion umbers that makes perfect sense. Both Legions were described as having been smaller than an average Legion, so perhaps about 7,000 for each of them. In case of the Space Wolves, each of the original Great Companies would thus have had about 500-700 warriors, while the Salamanders had consisted out of seven "Grand Companies/Chapters" instead of seven 100 man Companies. Both those figures are reasonable.

 

However, assuming 100,000 string Legions, the Space Wolves and Salamanders would have been about 70,000 warriors strong instead. That means a single SW Great Company would have been 5,000-7,000 warriors strong, while each of the seven Salamanders formations would have been 10,000 marines strong. That seems to be impractical and unwieldy, and not as easily reconcilable with the usual Legion organisation.

Both the Space Wolves and the Salamanders organisation is rooted in the 10,000 strong Legions.

[Gree]

Because 10% ist just an arbitrary figure I have been throwing up there. The Black Crusades are huge undertakings where pretty much every Legion is participating.

Actually no. Codex Chaos Space Marines 3.5 states that Abaddon's Black Crusades range from small elite raids to massive invasions. Case in point the gothic War, which was just on one sector and was mostly naval action.

According to the 3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines, Black Crusades can be "ranging in scales from raids carried out by small, elite companies of Black Legionnaires, to great invasions in which all of the Traitor Legions (!) are united under a single banner"

 

Yes, I know, I believe I already stated that.

 

Still assuming the "quarter of their original strength" figure, those particular Black Crusades would have had about 250,000 Chaos Marines invading imperial space. The 20 Chapters stationed around the Eye of Terror are a drop in the ocean against that. On the other hand, with 10,000 strong Legions it would have amounted to 25,000 Chaos Marines, which would have been possible for the 20 guarding Chapters to have an impact on, and being probably the size of the 13th Black Crusade.

 

However 25,000 would have been quite irrrevelnt in the total war to seize and control territory. Boros Prime, a single world alone could churn out ten billion Guardsmen quite easily. In fact it was the Guard who formed the backbone of the defense against the Word Bearer host, not the White Consuls. (And around ten thousand Word Bearers where sent at the Boros Gate to take it, most of them where killed. So appearantly Erebus likes sending almost half of the Chaos Marines in the Traitor Legions for casual assaults)

 

Forgive me, but you seem to be assuming that the 13th Crusade will be solely Astartes vs. Astartes. Factor in the hunderds of billions of Guardsmen that the Impeirum would logically have, and the situation changes. (In Dark Creed ten billion Guardsmen are recruited quite easily from Boros Prime, in Eisenhorn a 500,000 man regiment is raised quite casually.)

 

And yes, I am aware that Chaos has it's cultists and daemons, but even in Dark Creed, the Guard where still holding them off, and the amount of forces that Chaos has in support is unquatifiable.

 

But in any case the Chaos Marines that would be fighting would not be in a lighting war. Going by the newsletters it talks about how the Chaos forces would be fighting to capture and control against a force that numbers in the hundreds of billions. (This is even demonstrated in Dark Creed where the Word Bearers willingly launch into a full-scale urban war with the Guard in order to capture the planet for their needs.)

 

If we take what Dorn said was true (One Astartes is worth ten men) then 25,000 Chaos Marines alone would be pretty irevelent in a war that is to take and seize ground admist those kinds of numbers. And while they can launch lightning strikes, in the type of warfare that the 13th revolved around they would eventually be forced into a meatgrinder.

 

(Of course then we get to, how powerful are Astartes? Which differs from writer to writer as to their overall power level and what they can do. That is an entirely different discussion that I have no desire to get into)

 

Of course one must admit that some sources where probably written with different Legion numbers in mind. My personal opinion is that 100,000 man numbers make far more sense to me based on what I've read.

 

I mean, I can understand if GW or BL writers are dismissing the old Iron Warriors Index Astartes where the Legion was said to have had twelve Grand Companies of 1,000 warriors each. But it is a traditional distinct element of the Space Wolves and the Salamanders Chapter that they are still organised similarly to how their Legions formerly had been. In case of the Space Wolves it had originally been 13 Great Companies, but they had been bigger in size, while the Salamanders traditionally have one Company for each of teh seven settlements on their Homeworld Nocturne.

 

With the 10,000 strong Legion umbers that makes perfect sense. Both Legions were described as having been smaller than an average Legion, so perhaps about 7,000 for each of them. In case of the Space Wolves, each of the original Great Companies would thus have had about 500-700 warriors, while the Salamanders had consisted out of seven "Grand Companies/Chapters" instead of seven 100 man Companies. Both those figures are reasonable.

 

However, assuming 100,000 string Legions, the Space Wolves and Salamanders would have been about 70,000 warriors strong instead. That means a single SW Great Company would have been 5,000-7,000 warriors strong, while each of the seven Salamanders formations would have been 10,000 marines strong. That seems to be impractical and unwieldy, and not as easily reconcilable with the usual Legion organisation.

Both the Space Wolves and the Salamanders organisation is rooted in the 10,000 strong Legions.

 

I don't really care about the Space Wolves or Salamanders that much, but guess what size Abnett depicts the Space Wolves in Prospero Burns (Or at least that's what I've heard in the spoilers.)

 

 

It's 100,000 strong.

 

 

Of course that being said it's in a series which generally differ in sizes of Legions,

but Abnett appearantly thought that 100,000 would fit fine with the Wolves organization.

 

[Pulse]

That seems to be impractical and unwieldy, and not as easily reconcilable with the usual Legion organisation.

I wouldn't say that a Legion of that size would be either of those things. Organisation and disapline is all that is needed, and to be honest they are Astartes, their concept on both far outweighs our concept of those words.

 

I don't really care about the Space Wolves or Salamanders that much, but guess what size Abnett depicts the Space Wolves in Prospero Burns (Or at least that's what I've heard in the spoilers.)

 

 

It's 100,000 strong.

 

 

Of course that being said it's in a series which generally differ in sizes of Legions,

but Abnett appearantly thought that 100,000 would fit fine with the Wolves organization.

A D-B states that the Legion size of 100,000 marines was brought in to effect after A Thousand Sons, so that number is fine as Abnett started work after the decision was made on numbers.

[Legatus]

Forgive me, but you seem to be assuming that the 13th Crusade will be solely Astartes vs. Astartes. Factor in the hunderds of billions of Guardsmen that the Impeirum would logically have, and the situation changes. (In Dark Creed ten billion Guardsmen are recruited quite easily from Boros Prime, in Eisenhorn a 500,000 man regiment is raised quite casually.)

I am disregarding imperial human forces just as much as I am disregarding Chaos human forces. Wasn't one of the key strokes in the 13th Black Crusade that Abaddon managed to turn about half of teh Cadian defense forces?

 

But then I am also still assuming that a single Chapter worth of Marines can take a moderately defended world all by themselves, so 25,000 Marines (as much as two entire Legions going by the smaller figures), should be more than enough to take any world in the Imperium that is not defended by similar forces. And by that I mean Marines, not defense forces who will be helpless against the planet strikes from the Marines.

 

 

I don't really care about the Space Wolves or Salamanders that much

It adds to the number of issues that make less and less sense if the Legions are changed into 100,000 strong formations. There is the Scouring and the 2nd Founding, there are the Black Crusades, and there also are the traditional Space Wolves and Salamanders Chapter organsiations.

 

 

but guess what size Abnett depicts the Space Wolves in Prospero Burns

Didn't we just learn that it has been officially decreed that the Legions now have to be described as 100,000 strong? I don't think the traditional Space Wolves organisation will bother Dan Abnett that much. I believe he had said that he was not a big fan of the Space Wolves himself, at least not of the blatant viking theme they have usually been getting. I don't think he will mention a 7,000 strong Great Company. Or maybe he will, and will think nothing of it.

 

I wonder how the Space Wolves would have been able to score third place in number of victories if their forces were divided into only 13 large forces instead of 100 smaller ones like most of the other Legions could potentially have been.

[Gree]

Forgive me, but you seem to be assuming that the 13th Crusade will be solely Astartes vs. Astartes. Factor in the hunderds of billions of Guardsmen that the Impeirum would logically have, and the situation changes. (In Dark Creed ten billion Guardsmen are recruited quite easily from Boros Prime, in Eisenhorn a 500,000 man regiment is raised quite casually.)

I am disregarding imperial human forces just as much as I am disregarding Chaos human forces. Wasn't one of the key strokes in the 13th Black Crusade that Abaddon managed to turn about half of teh Cadian defense forces?

 

No, where are you getting that from? Abaddon turned a bunch of Volscani Regiments, but it was hardly half the Cadian defense force, or any part of the sector defneses itself. His key stroke came from wiping out the High Command (which however was replaced by Creed eventually)

 

Fact is the Guard formed the backbone of the Imperial Defense. Read Dark Creed, in fact one of the White Consuls talks about how important the Guard are, or the Newsletters. Pretty much every fluff source I've read on the 13th Black Crusade makes it clear that the Guard where the vital. They would be, considering just how much they outnumber the Astartes.

 

But then I am also still assuming that a single Chapter worth of Marines can take a moderately defended world all by themselves, so 25,000 Marines (as much as two entire Legions going by the smaller figures), should be more than enough to take any world in the Imperium that is not defended by similar forces. And by that I mean Marines, not defense forces who will be helpless against the planet strikes from the Marines.

 

I would point out that the Guard forces defending Cadia would hardly be helpless against planet strikes. Cadia is the second most fortifed planet in the Imperium for a reason. It's been fortifed for ten thousand years to resist that kind of assault. Millions, if not billions of guardsmen are going to defend it. The only way to take control of Cadia to go in their and take and hold the place, a place where the cities themselves are made into fortresses. (Read Cadian Blood, that's essentially what happened.)

 

Oh, and you have an entire sector to go at it as well. Read the Newsletters, Chaos Marines where everywhere in the entire sector and the sourrounding sectors. Taking Cadia is vital, yes, but unless you can take the rest of the sector and prevent Imperial renforcements from reaching Cadia then it's useless.

 

You seem to be under the impression that it was just a Cadia only event when the Index Astartes articles and the Newsletters make it very clear that it was an entire sector that was being fought over.

 

I don't really care about the Space Wolves or Salamanders that much

It adds to the number of issues that make less and less sense if the Legions are changed into 100,000 strong formations. There is the Scouring and the 2nd Founding, there are the Black Crusades, and there also are the traditional Space Wolves and Salamanders Chapter organsiations.

 

Well, that's nice, but I'm hardly getting into a discussion about their organization. I'm a Black Crusade expert, not a Wolf or Salamander expert.

 

I wonder how the Space Wolves would have been able to score third place in number of victories if their forces were divided into only 13 large forces instead of 100 smaller ones like most of the other Legions could potentially have been.

 

I would point out they would have sub-organizations beyond that that existed Pre-Heresy that do not exist now.

 

Yes the Wolves are organized after their Legion, but going by the spoilers there are some pretty big differences between the Wolves of then and the Wolves of now.

[Legatus]

Wasn't one of the key strokes in the 13th Black Crusade that Abaddon managed to turn about half of teh Cadian defense forces?

No, where are you getting that from?

Beats me. I distinctly remembered some planet where suddenly half of the defense forces turned. Apparenlty that wasn't Cadia.

 

 

I would point out that the Guard forces defending Cadia would hardly be helpless against planet strikes.

From 25,000 Space Marines? They will have a field day. But with the larger Legion sizes those would have been 250,000 Marines instead. They would have swatted away all the defenses listed in the Codex Eye of Terror.

 

 

Oh, and you have an entire sector to go at it as well. Read the Newsletters, Chaos Marines where everywhere in the entire sector and the sourrounding sectors. Taking Cadia is vital, yes, but unless you can take the rest of the sector and prevent Imperial renforcements from reaching Cadia then it's useless.

 

You seem to be under the impression that it was just a Cadia only event when the Index Astartes articles and the Newsletters make it very clear that it was an entire sector that was being fought over.

I am saying 25,000 Marines would have been quite enough to give the Imperium a hard time in the 13th Black crusade. Which seems to be about the number the Imperium had faced, judging from the involved Marines on the loyalist side. If Abaddon would have had 250,000 Marines to command, the Long War would be over.

 

 

Well, that's nice, but I'm hardly getting into a discussion about their organization. I'm a Black Crusade expert, not a Wolf or Salamander expert.

My point is, there are several problems with a lot of elements of established fluff if Legions are now assumed to have been 100,000 warriors strong. Even if you personally do not care for the Space Wolves, their distinct Chapter organisation, which was based on the former Legion organisation, is one of their trademark pieces of fluff. just like the 2nd Founding is. These pieces of background just make a lot more sense with 10,000 Legions. 100,000 Legions mess a lot fo those things up, and a lot of problems are introduced just to make the Great Crusade appear "more epic".

 

I think that is a bad decision. I think in a 40K universe where a single Chapter can take a world, a 10,000 strong Legion is an almost unstoppable force and is feasible for a legendary Great Crusade. I don't think 100,000 strong Legions are needed to make the Great Crusade feasible, and all the problems that come with these large numbers could be avoided. I am also doubting that these problems will be proberly dealt with in future publications.

[Gree]

From 25,000 Space Marines? They will have a field day. But with the larger Legion sizes those would have been 250,000 Marines instead. They would have swatted away all the defenses listed in the Codex Eye of Terror.

 

Maybe listed in the Codex Eye of Terror, but a vareity of other sources (Eisenhorn, Dark Creed, the Newsletters) present even more defenses in the area.

 

I am saying 25,000 Marines would have been quite enough to give the Imperium a hard time in the 13th Black crusade. Which seems to be about the number the Imperium had faced, judging from the involved Marines on the loyalist side. If Abaddon would have had 250,000 Marines to command, the Long War would be over.

 

25,000 would have been irevelent if the Imperium can quite casually call ten billion Guardsmen from a single planet and hold off ten thousand Chaos Marines with that number.

 

My point is, there are several problems with a lot of elements of established fluff if Legions are now assumed to have been 100,000 warriors strong. Even if you personally do not care for the Space Wolves, their distinct Chapter organisation, which was based on the former Legion organisation, is one of their trademark pieces of fluff. just like the 2nd Founding is. These pieces of background just make a lot more sense with 10,000 Legions. 100,000 Legions mess a lot fo those things up, and a lot of problems are introduced just to make the Great Crusade appear "more epic".

 

That may be, but I am not a Space Wolf expert, thus I am not going to cover that aspect of the debate, which is why I care little of it.

 

I think that is a bad decision. I think in a 40K universe where a single Chapter can take a world, a 10,000 strong Legion is an almost unstoppable force and is feasible for a legendary Great Crusade. I don't think 100,000 strong Legions are needed to make the Great Crusade feasible, and all the problems that come with these large numbers could be avoided. I am also doubting that these problems will be proberly dealt with in future publications.

 

Appearantly I would have to disagree. Certain sources (Dark Creed, Imperial Armor, the Horus Heresy novels themselves, among many others) present a very different view on things. At that point we would have to judge by different sources as presented. (Appearantly, there where some worlds in the novels that gave multiple Legions a hard time, but that's another discussion entirely)

 

But of course, my main reason for liking the 100,000 man Legions is that I can easily stick my warband in one. All other concerns are secondary to me.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

*gets popcorn and a drink, settles in for a LOOOONG debate*

 

WLK

[Legatus]

25,000 would have been irevelent if the Imperium can quite casually call ten billion Guardsmen form a single planet and hold off ten thousand Chaos Marines with that number.

The 5th Edition Codex Space Marines describes that in the rare cases where a single Chapter fights as one, it can bring liberation or destruction to entire star systems. The Codex Black Templars describes the suspected six thousand battle brethren as an all but unstoppable force, should they ever gather in one place. Apparently the author of "Dark Creed" has taken a few artistic liberties. Either that or the Word Bearers are just unbelievably whimpy compared to other Marines. But who knows, perhaps with the adjusted Legion sizes in he next Marine Codices we will also see a drastic reduction in their supposed fighting strength.

[Gree]

25,000 would have been irevelent if the Imperium can quite casually call ten billion Guardsmen form a single planet and hold off ten thousand Chaos Marines with that number.

The 5th Edition Codex Space Marines describes that in the rare cases where a single Chapter fights as one, it can bring liberation or destruction to entire star systems. The Codex Black Templars describes the suspected six thousand battle brethren as an all but unstoppable force, should they ever gather in one place. Apparently the author of "Dark Creed" has taken a few artistic liberties. Either that or the Word Bearers are just unbelievably whimpy compared to other Marines. But who knows, perhaps with the adjusted Legion sizes in he next Marine Codices we will also see a drastic reduction in their supposed fighting strength.

 

Rogal Dorn states that a Marine is worth ''ten others'' what those ten others are is unknown but assuming it's ten other Guardsmen then the Imperium can easily make those Marines irevelent by sheer numbers. The Guard Codex lists the Guard as outnumbering the Marines millions to one.

 

And in Dark Creed, each Word Bearer was taking on 40-50 Guardsmen before dying. (100 Guardsmen if we believe Marduk) and yet they where losing in a war of attrition. In Imperial Armor V-VII the Astartes are described as avoiding Vraks because they can't really make a diffrence in the trenches (The Grey Knights and the other chapters only come in support of the Guard in order to fight the Daemons later on. In fact the Red Hunters make a drop at one point and pretty much get annhilated by daemons. The entire chapter comes in and get's cut up. When the Chaos Marines come they turn the tide in favor of the rebels but the Guard still hold them off after the intitial suprise. Something like a dozen or more warbands come in support of the rebels in what was implied to be chapter sized numbers at the least and they still can't completely beat the Krieg.)

 

In the Horus Heresy series there are worlds that require multiple Legions in order to subdue. Murder for one required the Luna Wolves and the Blood Angels and even then it was rather long and difficult. The Shrike systems in a Thousand Sons had three different Legions required. In Horus Rising an entire chapter of Blood Angels is eaten by the local xenos if I remember correctly. In the Tyranid Codex Tyranid splinter fleets have destroyed entire chapters and gutted others.

 

The effectiveness of the Astartes largely depends on who is writing them at the time.

[Legatus]

Rogal Dorn states that a Marine is worth ''ten others'' what those ten others are is unknown but assuming it's ten other Guardsmen then the Imperium can easily make those Marines irevelent by sheer numbers. The Guard Codex lists the Guard as outnumbering the Marines millions to one.

That quote dates back to Rogue Trader days, but I recognise that it has continuously been used throughout the Editions. What makes Space Marines so valuable is that they condense the power of ten times that amount of guardsmen into a very small area. You could have 100 Guardsmen fight 10 Marines at once, but it is more difficult to get 1,000 guardsmen to simultaneously fight 100 Marines, due to the area those 1,000 Guardsmen will occupy. 10,000 Guardsmen simultaneously fighting 1,000 marines will be quite difficult to pull off, and 100,000 guardsmen facing off against 10,000 Marines at the same time will be all but impossible.

Add to that that Space Marines, being usually the one's attacking a world, will have the air superiority in most cases and the higher mobility, meaning they can chose their battles. Indeed, the most frequently used tactic employed by Space Marines is to quickly strike at vital targets such as headquarters or supply depots and then basically take out the leaderless and harmstrung enemy forces peace by peace.

Those tactics are usually described in the Marine Codices, and at least to me as a layman they seem viable.

 

 

In the Horus Heresy series there are worlds that require multiple Legions in order to subdue.

With that specific rate given it does not really matter whether a Legion is 10,000 or 1,000,000 strong. They won't be taking one million worlds in 200 years. I think I also remember something about the Emperor's Children (or maybe a different Legion) fighting on one world for more than one year.

 

 

The effectiveness of the Astartes largely depends on who is writing them at the time.

Well, there are "stories" about one Chapter taking a world or one Chapter being eaten by a Hive Fleet, and then there are "force descriptions" explaining the fighting power of this force in general. If the Space Marines Codex states that a single Space Marine Chapter can lay waste to an entire system, then that is pretty much establishing what their power is in the background. Stories about Space Marine Chapters defeating their foes or being destroyed will then either be in line with that definition or will deviate from it. There can allways be exceptions to the rule, and a Chapter may fail where it would otherwise have been expected to prevail.

[Gree]

Rogal Dorn states that a Marine is worth ''ten others'' what those ten others are is unknown but assuming it's ten other Guardsmen then the Imperium can easily make those Marines irevelent by sheer numbers. The Guard Codex lists the Guard as outnumbering the Marines millions to one.

That quote dates back to Rogue Trader days, but I recognise that it has continuously been used throughout the Editions. What makes Space Marines so valuable is that they condense the power of ten times that amount of guardsmen into a very small area. You could have 100 Guardsmen fight 10 Marines at once, but it is more difficult to get 1,000 guardsmen to simultaneously fight 100 Marines, due to the area those 1,000 Guardsmen will occupy. 10,000 Guardsmen simultaneously fighting 1,000 marines will be quite difficult to pull off, and 100,000 guardsmen facing off against 10,000 Marines at the same time will be all but impossible.

 

And why not? You can cover more area with the Guard, especially if the Guard get tanks, artillery and air support.

 

In fact Chaos is pretty much forced to fight on Guard terms at Cadia in order to take the specially prepared and fortified cities. In fact air support is not guarnteed there ethier. On Cadia Chaos has to assault cities and hold them, all while the Guard knows they are coming and have prepared to do so.

 

Add to that that Space Marines, being usually the one's attacking a world, will have the air superiority in most cases and the higher mobility, meaning they can chose their battles. Indeed, the most frequently used tactic employed by Space Marines is to quickly strike at vital targets such as headquarters or supply depots and then basically take out the leaderless and harmstrung enemy forces peace by peace.

 

And guess what? At Cadia they are going to have to take and hold ground. Cadian Blood described urban warfare along with pretty much every other source I've read. There are no lightning war here. Chaos already tried to kill off the leaders, the Imperium just replaced them at Cadia and then dug in. Air support is also not guarnteed. The orbit will be contested heavily by the Imperial Navy.

 

Taking out the leaders and supply centers is not going to work here. The Imperium had fortifed and prepared the area for that sort of invasion. (I would not be surpised if those command bunkers and supply bases where heavily fortifed and guarded myself) Chaos has to take and hold the planets and eventualy defend them against Imperial counterattack if they take it. That is going to be long, bloody work.

 

Look for example in Dark Apostle, 2,000 Word Bearers attacked a lightly defended mining world and took it rather easily from the PDF. When the actual Guard came in they where forced on the defensive and pushed back.

 

Those tactics are usually described in the Marine Codices, and at least to me as a layman they seem viable.

 

As a laymen yes, but those tactics where written by people who where not soldiers and have little actual military experiance.

 

Read Emperor's Mercy, which was written by an author with actual military experiance. You know what the Guard did when they found out a company of Chaos Marines on the planet? They bombarded them into dust with as much heavy ordnance and bombers as they could get their hands on and then mopped up the remains.

 

Well, there are "stories" about one Chapter taking a world or one Chapter being eaten by a Hive Fleet, and then there are "force descriptions" explaining the fighting power of this force in general.

 

I find there to be a diffrence describing of what a force could theorietically could do and what they actually do. There are examples of Chapters doing that, yes, but I find there to be far too many examples of them performing poorer to be simple flukes or exceptions.

 

If the Space Marines Codex states that a single Space Marine Chapter can lay waste to an entire system, then that is pretty much establishing what their power is in the background. Stories about Space Marine Chapters defeating their foes or being destroyed will then either be in line with that definition or will deviate from it. There can allways be exceptions to the rule, and a Chapter may fail where it would otherwise have been expected to prevail.

 

I would point out that the Guard Codex that the Guard form the ''backbone'' of the Imperium and that '' the end result is inevitable''. The 4th Edition Guard codex states they are the ''mightest fighting force''.

 

I can pull up other statements in other codices if I have the time, but my point is that all Codices state their faction can do so and so. However what codices say often does not match up to actual feats.

 

The Marine Codex may say a chapter can do that, but I find that statement is disproved too often in the fluff for me to take true at all.

 

In fact go on Warseer and state your opinion. There will be many xenos and Guard players who will be happy to pull out their codices and various fluff sources and debate it with you.

[Pulse]

I can pull up other statements in other codices if I have the time, but my point is that all Codices state their faction can do so and so. However what codices say often does not match up to actual feats.

 

The Marine Codex may say a chapter can do that, but I find that statement is disproved too often in the fluff for me to take true at all.

Spot on. Each codex is essentially written as propoganda for the faction it relates to.

 

In fluff terms, there is no way that a chapter can take on worlds that are well defended and dug in. A chapter my very well land and destroy essentials, kill the command element etc etc but mopping up is much, much harder. Attrition would simply wear them down and they would have to pull out if casualties became too great.

[Gree]

I can pull up other statements in other codices if I have the time, but my point is that all Codices state their faction can do so and so. However what codices say often does not match up to actual feats.

 

The Marine Codex may say a chapter can do that, but I find that statement is disproved too often in the fluff for me to take true at all.

Spot on. Each codex is essentially written as propoganda for the faction it relates to.

 

In fluff terms, there is no way that a chapter can take on worlds that are well defended and dug in. A chapter my very well land and destroy essentials, kill the command element etc etc but mopping up is much, much harder. Attrition would simply wear them down and they would have to pull out if casualties became too great.

 

I am in full support of forcing a world of surrender and devastating the system. but taking and holding a system? Marines are not made for taking and holding a place or for heavy attrition warfare.

[Pulse]

I am in full support of forcing a world of surrender and devastating the system. but taking and holding a system? Marines are not made for taking and holding a place or for heavy attrition warfare.

I am with you on that one mate.

[Legatus]

And why not? You can cover more area with the Guard, especially if the Guard get tanks, artilliry and air support.

At certain force sizes it will just not be possible to engage the Space Marine force with ten times the number of troops at once. A lot of the force will not be within reach of the Marines.

 

 

As a laymen yes, but those tactics where written by people who where not soldiers and have little actual military experiance.

They may not have the military experience, but they certainly have the authors intention that the Space Marines are as capable as they describe them, even if they are not doing a good job of explaining how they achieve that.

 

 

Read Emperor's Mercy, which was written by an author with actual military experiance. You know what the Guard did when they found out a company of Chaos Marines on the planet? They bombarded them into dust with as much heavy ordnance and bombers as they could get their hands on and then mopped up the remains.

Too bad the Marines did not expect that. And why didn't they?

 

 

I find there to be a diffrence describing of what a force could theorietically could do and what they actually do.

With 10,000 years of history there should be a bit of credence to such descriptions.

 

 

I would point out that the Guard Codex that the Guard form the ''backbone'' of the Imperium and that '' the end result is inevitable''.

No doubt due to the Imperial Guard's ubiquity and limitless resources, and not so much their fighting power. If a Chapter does not manage to take a planet until reinforcements arrive they could be there all eternity. Or more likely they are withered down by sheer numbers. But Marines usually strike quick and decisively. At least in theory. And apparently that is the usual MO for the past 10,000 years.

 

 

The 4th Edition Guard codex states they are the ''mightest fighting force''.

Again due to ubiquity and limitless resources. The 4th Edition Guard Codex also describes how the Space Marine Legions did all the work during the Great Crusade and the Imperial Army was mainly performing garrison duties until later in the Crusade.

 

 

I can pull up other statements in other codices if I have the time, but my point is that all Codices state their faction can do so and so. However what codices say often does not match up to actual feats.

Perhaps the force descriptions in the basic rulebook are less biased?

 

"A half-company of fifty Space Marines is sufficient to end the rebellion of thousands, while a full Chapter of a thousand or so battle brothers can decide the fate of an entire sub-sector."

5th Edition BRB, p. 133

 

"The Imperial Guard is Mankind's primary and most numerous defense. It is the Hammer of the Emperor, numbering billions upon billions of soldiers divided into millions of regiments. Even the Departmento Munitorium has no idea of the number of troops under arms, as the continuous toll of casualies and influx of recruits may run to millions in a single day. With thunderous barrages and crackling volley of las-fire, the Imperial Guard attacks in endless waves until victory is won."

5th Edition BRB, p. 138

 

"Though ponderous, it can field an unending tide of infantry, supported by armoured vehicles and artillery. It is a strategy of attrition, and few foes can endure its mighty onset."

5th Edition BRB, p. 139

 

For one thing, the description of the Imperial Guard is much more generic, merely describing how they are powerfull and will fight in until eventually, presumably, victory is won. But we know that no faction will allways be victorious, so this is a pretty generic description. The description for teh Space Marines on the other hand gives us a sense of scale of what tehy are able to achieve. While the Imperial Guard description does not describe the capabilities of one Regiment, but the entire Imperial Guard as a giant war machine, the Space Marine description only describes specifically the capabilities of one Chapter of Marines. It does not even enter into the possibility that there might be multiple Chapters involved.

 

But the most important thing is: The Space Marine description is specifically about them fighting human rebellions. This basically tells us what they are capable of to achieve against Guard level opposition (in fighting strength, not in resources, obviously). The Guard description on the other hand is not describing how they usually fare against Space Marines. The description is generic, against common foes. Space Marines are not common foes. The description ir more likely referring to Orks and rebels. The Guard description even acknowledges that there may be foes who can withstand their opposition.

 

I don't think these descriptions leave any doubt that a single Space Marine Chapter could take out most of the Imperial worlds safe the most heavily defended ones. And the descriptions do not even alude to forces that are several Chapters strong.

 

 

The Marine Codex may say a chapter can do that, but I find that statement is disproved too often in the fluff for me to take true at all.

Can we find statements in fluff where Imperial Worlds are ravaged by different foes? Does that then prove that the Imperial Guard counts for zilch?

[Pulse]

"A half-company of fifty Space Marines is sufficient to end the rebellion of thousands, while a full Chapter of a thousand or so battle brothers can decide the fate of an entire sub-sector."

5th Edition BRB, p. 133

Decide. That is the key word. Decide in military terms means "tipping the balance".

 

I don't think these descriptions leave any doubt that a single Space Marine Chapter could take out most of the Imperial worlds safe the most heavily defended ones. And the descriptions do not even alude to forces that are several Chapters strong

I would say most with a pinch of salt in this case. A strong force on any planet, will still potentially cause unsustanable loses on the side of the marines, if of course they haven't been crushed by the inital marine assault.

[Gree]

And why not? You can cover more area with the Guard, especially if the Guard get tanks, artilliry and air support.

At certain force sizes it will just not be possible to engage the Space Marine force with ten times the number of troops at once. A lot of the force will not be within reach of the Marines.

 

Why not?

 

They may not have the military experience, but they certainly have the authors intention that the Space Marines are as capable as they describe them, even if they are not doing a good job of explaining how they achieve that.

 

Which makes the Astartes method of war seem quite weird in some cases.

 

Too bad the Marines did not expect that. And why didn't they?

 

They did actually, they dug in and waited for a Guard task force. And it was from the Guard's point of view in a Guard novel.

 

With 10,000 years of history there should be a bit of credence to such descriptions.

 

Which I have a hard time finding entire chapters doing what you claim. Having Marines do such things once or twice I can see, but for me it would have to be 99% time that they do it.

 

No doubt due to the Imperial Guard's ubiquity and limitless resources, and not so much their fighting power. If a Chapter does not manage to take a planet until reinforcements arrive they could be there all eternity. Or more likely they are withered down by sheer numbers. But Marines usually strike quick and decisively. At least in theory. And apparently that is the usual MO for the past 10,000 years.

 

Which, with the 13th Black Crusade, won't be much of an option. Chaos has to take and hold these planets. The Newsletters even talk about hot there will be decades, if not centuries of warfare as the Imperium musters forces to take Chaos-captured systems back.

 

And rad the Ghost and Cain books, both make it very clear that victory often rests on Guard fighting power and skill as much as numbers.

 

Again due to ubiquity and limitless resources. The 4th Edition Guard Codex also describes how the Space Marine Legions did all the work during the Great Crusade and the Imperial Army was mainly performing garrison duties until later in the Crusade.

 

Appearantly that's changed as the 5th Edition Guard Codex describes them as being ''vital.''

 

But the most important thing is: The Space Marine description is specifically about them fighting human rebellions. This basically tells us what they are capable of to achieve against Guard level opposition (in fighting strength, not in resources, obviously).

 

Actually no, Guard fighting strength often eclipses that of local rebellions in skill.

 

Read...pretty much every Guard novel. Most rebellions are ill-trained cultists. Cain even notes that how poorly trained the cultists his regiment usually faces and Gaunt is shocked when Chaos starts to pull out Guard-equal troopers to face the Ghosts. In fact the Guard as a whole are shocked in the Ghost books that Guard-equal chaos troopers even exist. In all Imperial Guard books I have read the Guard are always depicted as superior in terms of skill to local rebels, often at times vastly so. Cain's regiment rarely even takes losses when fighting rebels.

 

Pretty much every book I've read has the Guard portrayed as vastly superior to the local rebellions and chaos troops. The only exceptions are when the enemy is ex-Guard (The Ironclad) or described as having Guard-level training and equipment (The Blood Pact, Sons of Sek)

 

And that quote about them deciding the fate of sub-sectors? That could just be them tipping the balance. It's not described as them being single-handedly taking it out. (although I will admit we do have a source of Astartes doing that, but it's jus tone example and not something consistant).

 

A half-company can end a rebellion of thousands. That nice but now have them in a take-and hold war of attrition against Guard-level foes. That's what the 13th Black Crusade was.

 

I don't think these descriptions leave any doubt that a single Space Marine Chapter could take out most of the Imperial worlds safe the most heavily defended ones. And the descriptions do not even alude to forces that are several Chapters strong.

 

The thing about descriptions is that they describe, but unfourtunately actual feats don't match up. Yes Chapters are described as doing that, but often we rarely get to see that happen. And all too often when chapters do appear deployed in mass they are more lackluster than the descriptions would give. Or that could be the result of different writers.

 

Can we find statements in fluff where Imperial Worlds are ravaged by different foes?

 

Can we find statements that Imperial Worlds are ravenged by different foes? Open any codex. Any codex at all, and you will find descriptions of that happening.

 

Does that then prove that the Imperial Guard counts for zilch?

 

Go to Warseer and state that, no seriously, state that and see how long you last.

 

Oh, and read the Gaunt books or the Cain books and still tell me that. Even in the rulebook it's stated that the Guard are the primary defense of the Imperium. I'm not sure wheter you are joking or being serious here, but the Guard have always been presented as a vital part of the Imperial defense in pretty much every fluff source I've read.

 

 

 

But, my main point, as ever, is that I acknowledge that such things do happen, however the opposite happens just as much. My point was that different writers depict the Astartes with different degrees of power and skill. Certain versions of Astartes can do what you want them to do, others cannot. That was my main point.

 

Read any Marine novel and the Marines will hack there was through rebels and cultists with absolute ease. Read a Guard novel, where the Ghosts are able to ambush and take out Chaos Marines without any losses. Or my example above with Emperor's Mercy, where a Marine company was uncerimonously bombarded into annhilation. Emperor's Finest has the Astartes being badass, but ultimately taking heavy losses at the hands of the Genestealers.

 

I'm not trying to claim any single version is right, for me personally there is too many writers with different depictions.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Legatus: I think you might be underestimating the effectivess of the Imperial Guard, which is very understandable, as we Marines are always described as being superior to them in every way.

 

as Gree points out, the effectivess of Chaos cultists is often so poor that trained Guardsmen can wipe through them while taking light losses. Its only when the cultists have time to spread through the infrastructure of a planet that they become truely dangerous.

 

WLK

[Hyperion]

Just to chip in.

 

TFH does mention the Word Bearers have 100,000 marines, but also goes on to mention that they are the second largest Legion after the Ultramarines. Other HH stories specifically state that some Legions are much smaller, including Raven's Flight which states that Corax did not have the manpower resources to create as many new marines as other Legions.

 

It's worth taking into account:

 

1. The Legions expand in size as the Great Crusade progresses, so presumably they reach a maximum size at some point near the outbreak of the Heresy and then shrink in size again (although we don't know what happened to recruitment as Horus built up his forces in preparation).

 

2. We don't know whether the maximum number of marines (ever) was around 2 million (20, um 18 Legions at 100,000 marines each) or whether it was actually considerably lower. In the early Crusade the Legions would have been much smaller, and many of them would have remained small until their Primarch was discovered.

 

3. We don't know just how large the Ultramarines Legion got (was there a figure of 250,000 mentioned somewhere?) which could balance out the smaller Legions.

 

4. The 40K Imperium has 1 million marines (the Black Templars ignoring the Chapter limits sort of cancels out the Chapters that have suffered heavy losses!) which apparently is a reasonable number to hold the Imperium together. 1-2 million marines (plus Primarchs) towards the end of the GC therefore seems reasonable to create the Imperium.

 

It's interesting to speculate on what might have happened if the Heresy hadn't happened, regarding Legion size. Some Legions were very strict about only recruiting from their homeworlds, but others were happy to recruit more widely. With the continued presence of their Primarch, you could imagine certain Legions expanding almost indefinitely.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Let's get this back on topic please.

[Gree]

Okay then.

 

To those who have read the book, how often does Russ appear? do we actually get to see him fight?