Prospero Burns

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Okay then.

 

To those who have read the book, how often does Russ appear? do we actually get to see him fight?

 

from the except i have seen (him during the Council of Nikea) he seems to be a bit...bit of a smart aleck really. he is deliberately "yanking the chains" of those around him, and has a ready (joking) reply to those around him. (which was Captain Gulgor of the Death Guard, Raldaron of the Blood Angels {spelt name wrong, i know}, and 2 Custodes. (valdor and amon, i think). He isnt talking down to them, or being rude, but gently ribbing them.

 

his sense of humor was very unexpected due to the looks at the primarchs we have seen so far.

 

something i found interesting during this exchange was: "‘My lord,’ replied Valdor levelly. ‘This constant need of yours to playfully maintain the role of barbarian king is most amusing, but we are busily occupied with–’

‘Oh, Constantin!’ Russ chuckled. ‘I honestly hoped you’d go for it!’ He gave the Praetor an open-handed slap on the arm that Hawser was quite sure left a dent in

the golden plate.

 

WLK

[Gree]

Okay, so do we actually see him fight or not?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Okay, so do we actually see him fight or not?

 

I dont know. I only read that part randomnly.

 

I am waiting for it in paperback to read ti properly (none of this computer pdf crap). so, when i get it in my corner of FLorida, I'll post what i know (exempting spoilers of course)

 

WLK

[Vaktathi]

To address some of the issues earlier in this thread, the IG during the Great Crusade, or rather, the Imperial Army, was initially only for garrison duties, however as the Crusade continued, there simply became too much space for the Space Marines to cover and thus took an ever greater role in the crusade, by the end of which they are at the forefront just as much as the Marines. There were simply too many planets for the Marines to be everywhere and more and more planets from which to recruit troops for the Imperial Army.

 

Following the Heresy, with the reduction in the capabilities and resources available to the Space Marines as a whole, the Imperial Guard then became the primary fighting force of the Imperium.

 

 

As is, much of the fluff around Space Marines is unfortunately grossly exaggerated beyond the point of sillyness (Dark Creed, Brothers of the Snake, etc), however much of the stuff that SM's are portrayed as having accomplished is not beyond what normal human troops have accomplished here on earth already. The statement about only a half company stopping a rebellion of thousands comes to mind, as such incidents have occurred before with a well trained and supported force overcoming a far larger force by having the capability to avoid fighting the bulk of such forces and engaging critical enemy elements, and such things are not beyond the capabilities of units within the Imperial Guard either, from units like Stormtroopers or other elite troops (generally represented in game terms by vets and the like). Gaunts Ghosts, Ciaphas Cain, etc typically usually (though not always) only portray battles involving a handful of regiments (so only troop numbers in the low tens of thousands) and affecting the course of worlds and even sectors. The IG is not just a mindless meatgrinder. That is an aspect of it yes, but for every doomed conscript horde there is a Vostroyan Firstborn or a Ghosts regiment that are going to win their battles through skill, cunning, experience and aggression rather than simply jamming the enemies guns with their bodies.

 

Remember, IG typically (unless in times of emergency) are the top 10% of each worlds recruits or standing PDF, they are the best their world has to offer generally. This means that most normally recruited IG regiments are rather well trained and equipped, often with a good deal of combat experience.

 

Given that the various Codex:Space Marine books have generally described SM's as providing the same capabilities as 10-12 (100 SM's or 1000 other troops as has been reprinted in most C:SM's, each space marine being worth a dozen normal guardsmen from p. 54 5E C:SM) normal human troops (although not specifying whether or not that already takes force multipliers into account or is a straight capability ratio, the former probably matching up with tabletop performance much better), this means that each Space Marine Chapter is equivalent in strength to basically two Imperial Guard Regiments (out of billions) assuming the standard Cadian 8th size of 8,000 men in terms of fighting strength. Now the IG doesn't seem quite so putzy.

[Captain Idaho]

With regards to Space Marine Chapters being the equivilent to 2 Regiments of Guard - Yes and no.

 

If you lined up both sides you would be correct, but warfare of Astartes is very fluid and ceaseless, therefore equal number engagements are moot points.

 

Those 10,000 or so Guardsmen will struggle to bring sufficient force to bear to even threaten Astartes at regular enough intervals to win through. In this manner the Astartes can hop from battle to battle tirelessly and bring their force to bear in areabas where their numerical inferiority doesn't matter.

 

Of course if you take away their mobility the Space Marines will have their blades dulled, so to speak.

[Gree]

Okay, so do we actually see him fight or not?

 

I dont know. I only read that part randomnly.

 

I am waiting for it in paperback to read ti properly (none of this computer pdf crap). so, when i get it in my corner of FLorida, I'll post what i know (exempting spoilers of course)

 

WLK

 

They have it on ebook now? That's quick, I thought they would have it released on Dec.28, same as the offical paperback release.

 

Anyway, I'll guess I'll just wait another week for it again.

[Pulse]

@Gree - Have you read A Thousand Sons? Only asking as Russ has hissy fit at Magnus and to be honest Russ comes across as a complete retard.

[Gree]

@Gree - Have you read A Thousand Sons? Only asking as Russ has hissy fit at Magnus and to be honest Russ comes across as a complete retard.

 

Yes I have, I even wrote an extensive fanfic about it using information from the novel.

[Pulse]

Ah ok, just thought i would ask as there is a bit of action in there with him. :)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Okay, so do we actually see him fight or not?

 

I dont know. I only read that part randomnly.

 

I am waiting for it in paperback to read ti properly (none of this computer pdf crap). so, when i get it in my corner of FLorida, I'll post what i know (exempting spoilers of course)

 

WLK

 

They have it on ebook now? That's quick, I thought they would have it released on Dec.28, same as the offical paperback release.

 

Anyway, I'll guess I'll just wait another week for it again.

 

well, he has it, and l skimmed that part briefly. (was in apoc game so wasnt paying it the right amount of attention)

 

WLK

[Vaktathi]

With regards to Space Marine Chapters being the equivilent to 2 Regiments of Guard - Yes and no.

 

If you lined up both sides you would be correct, but warfare of Astartes is very fluid and ceaseless, therefore equal number engagements are moot points.

 

Those 10,000 or so Guardsmen will struggle to bring sufficient force to bear to even threaten Astartes at regular enough intervals to win through. In this manner the Astartes can hop from battle to battle tirelessly and bring their force to bear in areabas where their numerical inferiority doesn't matter.

 

Of course if you take away their mobility the Space Marines will have their blades dulled, so to speak.

This is assuming the IG also can't do such things, which isn't entirely true. IG have armored and mechanized divisions, airmobile regiments and Drop Troops, none of which will have too much trouble hopping from engagement to engagement or quickly re-deploying to bring more force to bear. If you are referring to being able to utilize Naval assets to quickly redeploy, well, the IN is there too, but this also assumes in the ground combat oriented 40k universe that both sides have access to their ships all the the time when they need them. Granted yes that's primarily what gives the Astartes their advantage, but once on the ground they generally (in most fluff) seem to lose that benefit and simply fight as highly elite mechanized troops.

[Captain Idaho]

Guard can't do it to the extent of Space Marines. They only have a single regiment worth of Airborne troops in most campaigns, consisting of lighter armoured transports, inferior weaponry, infantry that require rest and preparation, etc which is not sufficent to oppose an entire Chapter.

 

If they were so easily opposed, then why would a Chapter of Space Marines be such a fearsome force? Why would they send a single Company to pacify a rebellious planet?

 

Also, the Space Marines don't need a static base to keep their fliers re-armed and re-fueled, which are easy targets to eliminate. A star ship is not.

[Gree]

At this point can we stop with the Guard vs. Mairnes debate? The mods have already come in once. I don't want them to come in again. Going back and looking over thr thread again I really don't want to derail this any further.

[ANCIENT FALOR]

Read the book in two days. It definately fleshes out the wolves and is a great read. i was a little disappointed with the

actual Prospero battle. as they had stated it was a "duology" and we would see events happening from different perspectives. i had hoped the battle wouldve been delved in deeper. I personaly was looking forward to the battle

especialy because of the title PROSPERO BURNS. Besides that as i said a good HH book not really focusing on the Prospero war.

[Marshal Rohr]

Hmm... methinks the Guard are heavily underestimated in this thread...

[Techmarine Data007]

I think the timeline over which Guard operate is heavily underestimated in this thread. It would seem that the Adeptus Munitorum don't car how long it takes to win a war, only that it is won. Marines, on the other hand, are more often than not, in and out in a matter of weeks, at the outside.

[Wispy]

Enjoyed the book. You guys who don\'t typically like Space Wolves should like this take on them. Darker, more mature and less goofy. typical space wolves fans won\'t agree, but the legion really needed a book like this.

 

There was a lot of wailing about the Space Wolves being Emprah\'s executioners, and I suggested it\'s not because they were actually more powerful then the other legions, but because they are the ones who would not balk at crossing the line. Turns out I was right. The Emperor gives them the dirty jobs, and they do the dirty jobs without complaining. They don\'t necessarily enjoy the dirty jobs, but they recognize they are the ones who do them, and then they do them to the letter. You can see where Russ might have got the reputation as the Emperor\'s dog.

 

Another fun thing I noticed...

 

The SW are content with their place in things. When Horus was made warmaster, you know what pissed them off? That they could not celebrate Horus\' promotion to warmaster, share the moment, and pledge their allegiance to him as they had the Emperor.

 

 

As for the peeps complaining about the space wolves opinions of themselves, you really have to read the book and realize the perspective of this novel is from a human skald. He\'s view point is going to be skewed, of course.

 

You get to see the other side of Russ, and what\'s going through his head. How he acted in public in Thousand Sons was very different from how he acted here, and...

 

You saw how he wages war. He admitted thusly - he likes to operate openly and project his strength, and create fear of his coming. In Thousand Sons, you saw him doing this, being the giant, ruthless dick, and treating Magnus with hostility. In Prospero Burns, you realize those are the airs he puts on to give him the psychological advantage - in private he is much more jovial, carefree, as well fearing for Magnus and the power he was playing with, knowing he had to put a stop to it.

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Wispy, you made me very jealous right now...

 

WLK

[Pulse]

Looking forward to reading it, i'll be glad to read more about the real Space Wolves - not space vikings. :)

[Fimbul]

I honestly loved the book in the end. Granted, I went into it thinking that it would show the other side of the battle and I was very confused as the early chapters were concerned.

 

However, what I did was starting to enjoy for a mirror of "A Thousand Sons", an insight into a chapter. I completely understand those that didn't like the book, that is - off course - your prerogative and everyone have different opinions and the book was not the easiest of the HH books to get into. I do have some thoughts I'd like to share though.

 

I have read some comments here and particularly on Warseer about how long it took for the book to get to Nikea and how the story was told from a 3rd party. Now, ATS also had most of the story from the perspective of the remembrancers and both books actually went for more than 300 pages before reaching Nikaea (you'd almost think they planned how many pages it would take to get there :) ) and to me, both did a great job showing the legions they depicted. McNeill's book did have about 100 pages more than Abnett's, though PB did reach the fight at Prospero faster and went through it faster. I wish he'd have a few more pages to depict the battle in more detail and from more sides.

 

PB did show more of what happened behind the scenes than did A Thousand Sons that took a more direct approach. It's a very different approach, but I liked it.

The behind-the-scens of Nikaea with three companies being ready there and the fight against the demon at the end of the book gave insight into events that we haven't seen much of so far, but that nonetheless were extremely important. Would the Emperor have been so harsh on Magnus if he hadn't been told of Magnus' - perceived I know ;) - use of the spy?

 

 

Concerning the "executioner" thing, I see people look at this differently. To me, it never read as the Wolves thinking they were the greatest (noone likes a braggart!) or that they were tougher or more dangerous than any of the other legions. I mean, every legion have their own traits that make them strong and dangerous. My thinking immediately went to the common image of an executioner, the man with a big axe and a black mask there to chop people's heads off. He does the job noone else wants to do, and he does it to the letter. The Wolves were not - as I take from the book - created to hunt other legions, nor were they created to be a kind of "police" of the other legions. No, they were created just like the others, but their role would be to do just what Russ says; do the dirty work.

 

The Wolves clearly have a good understanding of the Warp. I've bought and read every single HH story so far, and it appears that few legions - save for the Thousand Sons off course - have such a grasp of the Warp. They even talk to the Thousand Sons of "levels" and that they [space Wolves] do not go too far. Could it be that the Emperor would use the SW as executioners when it came to rogue psyker elements? Since this could include even Astartes, it's certainly dirty work. This is a far-fetched theory I know, but there is no Inquisition yet :)

 

Anyway, I agree with what Wispy said, the Wolves really needed a book like this. Personally, this book took the Wolves from the over-the-top silly, almost cartoony army and showed the other side of the coin, the one they do not always show and really, with "A Thousand Sons", "Nemesis" and "The First Heretic", this has been a really, really good period for the HH books imo.

[Dark Mechanicum]

Got mine the weekend before xmas, read it in two days. Then re-read it, and am reading it again just to make sure I didn't miss anything and I will say that chaos gets cool points for super manipulation. The Wolves have the coolest irony attached to their names. and that the Space Wolves are very thoughtful in and dangerous.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I got the book yesterday and finished it just now.

 

To start off with, I don't really like the Space Wolves that much. This book did move my opinion a little bit more toward the positive side.

 

But what's been said about the viewpoint thing seems pretty solid. There are the recurrent themes of the protagonists unreliability as an observer, and the narrator of the book being rather fluid. At some points in the story it's a third person perspective, at others it's first person. My writing professors would skewer me for that, I'm pretty sure, but Abnett makes it work. There is a mythic unreliability to the whole book. Abnett drops clues like anvils in the form of character names, but in descriptions of items and actions in the story deliberately leaves things out, like blank lines in the text, that he fills in later with conversational reveals in the 'murder mystery' style, or even in one case simply in the next paragraph. And then there are the dream sequence repetitions, which I still haven't decided whether or not I liked.

 

So I don't believe that the conclusions drawn by the narrator can be relied upon.

 

Honestly, the first parts of the book contained many long sections of dry descriptions. Long sections with no dialogue and action that was tedious to read and largely irrelevant to the plot. I skimmed several pages worth of axe fighting and internal reflection because it just wasn't doing anything for the story. The most enjoyable part of the book, for me, was the large part of the middle, after the acceptance of the protagonist into the Space Wolves' circle and up until around the Council of Nikea. The denouement was sort of anticlimactic, with the actual burning of Prospero, told from the protagonist's first person perspective, to be rather rushed. The biggest disappointment is that it doesn't answer the enigmatic hole left in Thousand Sons of the duel between Russ and Magnus, but instead goes into an almost psychedelic reality twisting rabbit hole where nothing is definitively stated (that can be completely believed, anyway). What in the world happened to Magnus out there while we waited with Ahriman behind that big door in Thousand Sons? That's what I really wanted to see in this book at the end as a payoff.

 

My favorite part of the book was the well set-up reveal for the character Bear. That was very nice. The narrative voice was my least favorite thing, as it was hard to adjust to due to the changing point of view.

 

All in all, this was an enjoyable book to read.

[Marshal Rohr]

Vash had commented on it, but I think I figured out some of the name repetition thing.

 

 

The female captain (Vasiliy) that got killed with Navid and the assistant (Vasiliy) were related. She mentions that she sends her pay to her sister to help raise her son Isak, and now Im convinced that the second Vasiliy was Isak

 

 

Not major, but still cool to me.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm on the fence whether to buy this book really. I'm not a great fan of Space Wolves and as it doesn't appear to add much to the series of insights to other fabled characters or their plans I might just not bother. It feels like the Dark Angels book all over again.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I'm on the fence whether to buy this book really. I'm not a great fan of Space Wolves and as it doesn't appear to add much to the series of insights to other fabled characters or their plans I might just not bother. It feels like the Dark Angels book all over again.

 

Oh, it's definitely several notches above those. I don't even like Space Wolves and I found this book utterly fascinating in the same way I found Legion fascinating, though I do have to wonder if Abnett is having his comic book work influence his HH work, since he so likes to tamper with "normals".

 

Also,

the first use of Enuncia outside of a Ravenor novel, oh Dan you tremendous TEASE! :)