Prospero Burns

[Lord_Caerolion]

There was a lot of wailing about the Space Wolves being Emprah\'s executioners, and I suggested it\'s not because they were actually more powerful then the other legions, but because they are the ones who would not balk at crossing the line. Turns out I was right. The Emperor gives them the dirty jobs, and they do the dirty jobs without complaining. They don\'t necessarily enjoy the dirty jobs, but they recognize they are the ones who do them, and then they do them to the letter. You can see where Russ might have got the reputation as the Emperor\'s dog.

 

Actually, for me it's the claims that the Emperor can only 'justify their creation and continued existance' as being his executioners. Seriously, the Wolves were seen as one of, if not the worst Legion? How did he justify the World Eaters and Night Lords (who were censured for Haunter attacking Dorn, not their tactics)? The Legion playing at barbarians are bad, but the Legion who's prime goal is to terrify the entire rest of the galaxy into utter submission is fine?

Secondly, the Wolves were one of the smallest Legions. Surely the Legion you create as executioners would be a little bigger?

 

I'd be fine with Dan's viewpoint, if the World Eaters/Night Lords didn't exist. Unfortunately, they do, and their unique thing during the Crusade was they were the "bad boys" of the Legions. To have what is now one of the most humanitarian Chapters come along and take that title, not even recognising them, is stupid. Since when would the World Eaters balk at a mission? Do they even understand the concept? "Blood for the Emperor! Chaaarge- oh wait. There's civilians down there, who don't want to fight. Better back off guys. Ok Khârn, back to the landing zone!"

The Night Lords deliberately styled themselves as what the Wolves are claiming credit for. Night Haunter swore to 'take the burden of evil upon himself', but apparently that now needs the addendum of "except when it'd make him look bad". Come on, it's frikkin evil psychotic Batman! He nuked non-hostile continents for containing a tiny agricultural cult! What have the Wolves done that's worse?

 

To have this legion that has previously been goody-two-shoes when it comes to relations suddenly claim to be utter bad-asses, who only care about results no matter the collateral, come along and steal the uniqueness of two other Legions... it's just not on. Space Wolves, more bloodthirsty than the World Eaters and more feared than the Night Lords... We're talking about the Legion who was late to Terra because they insisted on stopping and saving every little backwater planet of hicks from the enemy. That doesn't exactly scream "willing and ready to put aside all compassion and mercy to do what must be done, even when all other Legions would balk".

[Emperor's Scourge]

I think you're confusing cold calculating brutality with unmitigated unnecessary ultraviolence.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Even so, tell me an example of when the World Eaters would pull back from a fight because they'd refuse to do it. When would the Night Lords refuse?

 

How does your post help the argument of the Wolves? Either the Wolves are the cold calculating ones, at which point you're admitting there are Legions which go further than they do, or the Wolves do the ultraviolence, which is wrong, proven by numerous other sources.

 

We know of at least one example where the Space Wolves (the Chapter, not Legion, admittedly) has openly defied the Administratums orders that all civilians be killed off after Armageddon, which both the World Eaters and Night Lords have shown numerous times that they have no problems doing.

 

In other words, the Wolves might indeed be the "cold calculating brutality" (although I would classify the Night Lords as this too) to the World Eaters "unmitigated unneccessary ultraviolence", but that doesn't change the fact that the Wolves are ultimately humanitarian at heart, who have been shown to have problems putting aside their compassion for the bigger picture (travelling to Terra, aftermath of Armageddon, last offer for Magnus).

 

The Wolves have never been shown as feared and hated, apart from this novel. Every other portrayal, they're loved by the Imperium as the protectors of humanity. They've always been shown as almost the opposite of their reputation in Prospero Burns, yet we're expected to believe that they're now the perfect combination of World Eater and Night Lord?

 

 

Put simply, my point is that if the Wolves are so bad that the Emperor can barely justify their continued existance (of which we have been shown no proof whatsoever of their excesses), then how in the hell does he justify the Night Lords, who were only censured not for their tactics (which the Emperor seems to have been fine with) but for attacking another Primarch? At least the World Eaters were given a slap on the wrist for their massacre/genocides, but both those Legions operate far, far beyond anything the Wolves have done, and yet we get that the Wolves are the ones going beyond anything any other Legion would do from an out-of-Legion source.

 

I'll say it again, the Night Lords nuke whole continents for being the neighbours of peaceful, non-Chaos god worshippers. That's genocide of a population that would most likely have been made compliant. Please tell me how the Space Wolves can top that, without them going Slaaneshi on the population first? World Eaters butcher entire planets. Space Wolves... haven't been shown to have done crud-all even approaching those levels of Emperor-tolerated Legion operations. Yeah, in one short story they kill a population who violently refused compliance. Every Legion did that on whatever planet they went to. In Prospero Burns, they fought hard and finished a war that the Army couldn't. They did nothing that the Blood Angels or any other offensive-focussed Legion didn't do in any operation ever, and certainly didn't come anywhere close to the Night Lords or World Eaters standards of overkill.

 

There's the phrase "show, don't tell." In Prospero Burns, we aren't shown the Wolves doing any of this terrible, terrible, Emperor-hated nastiness. Hell, we aren't even told. We're simply given the boasts of several characters, all of which run entirely contrary to all existing information on the Wolves. It isn't even telling, it's just empty boasts.

[Aegnor]

You've actually explained yourself there why the World Eaters could never be the Emperor's executioner. The first requirement of the role of sanction against your own side is cast iron control. You could never trust them with that role because they are too bloodthirsty, and too likely to run out of control. The Wolves would flinch from nothing, but never enjoy it when turned onto another Imperial force. The Night Lords and World Eaters had their role as terror troops, not executioners.

 

The Wolves rep no doubt suffers for their superficial barbaric mannerisms and bestial appearance. Pre Heresy, the Eaters - Angron aside - seem to have a pretty refined manner when not fighting - eg Khârn and Varran. And the results of Astartes fighting normal humans always freaks out humans, regardless of the chapter involved.

[Gree]

One thing that I always wanted to see, going off Russ's reaction in Prospero Burns to Magnus's message, was how Russ reacted when Horus was revealed to be a traitor. Russ dismissed Magnus's message as lies in the book. I wondered how he would react when Magnus is revealed as correct?

 

 

Actually I just realized something. The daemon taking Horus's form says that the anatheme will finish him one year from now. (The events at Davin) Prospero Burns take splace a year before Davin right?

but False Gods had Magnus on Prospero trying to save Horus during the whole Davin dream thing. We even get to see his point of view during the whole thing.

 

Tell me I'm reading this wrong or it's a major plothole.

[Piousservant]

One thing that I always wanted to see, going off Russ's reaction in Prospero Burns to Magnus's message, was how Russ reacted when Horus was revealed to be a traitor. Russ dismissed Magnus's message as lies in the book. I wondered how he would react when Magnus is revealed as correct?

 

 

Actually I just realized something. The daemon taking Horus's form says that the anatheme will finish him one year from now. (The events at Davin) Prospero Burns take splace a year before Davin right?

but False Gods had Magnus on Prospero trying to save Horus during the whole Davin dream thing. We even get to see his point of view during the whole thing.

 

Tell me I'm reading this wrong or it's a major plothole.

 

Got to agree, I'd love to see what Russ thought when it turned out that Magnus had been right...

 

 

I'm pretty sure the Battle of Prospero was (or should be) after Davin, I'm sure that Magnus warns the Emperor of Horus' treachery once Horus has turned traitor not before (and after attempting and failing to save Horus). Doesn't make much sense otherwise. I haven't read Prospero Burns yet myself to know the context but maybe the Demon means that Horus was going to die from the Anatheme poison even if he had been victorious against the Emperor (Chaos protecting against the future that the Cabal saw)... I guess thats unlikely though...

 

 

 

 

Regarding the "Emperors Executioners" nonsense, I thought the indication given in A Thousand Sons (Magnus and Mortarion) was that it had been the Emperor and the Primarchs who had destroyed the Lost Legions. Kinda makes more sense. And if a Legion was to be "Executioners" I really don't see that the Wolves best fit that bill, sounds like a "Matt Ward moment" from Abnett there...

[Midgard]

Re: timing of Davin/Prospero. I'm pretty sure much of it could be written off on two things, first, how much time had passed between Nikaea and the Wolves mustering (I don't recall if the novel said much about that), and, second, the vagaries of Warp travel (and the havoc they play with time). That said, it is a bit of a plot hole, but explainable in-universe.

[Ethrion]

Actually I just realized something. The daemon taking Horus's form says that the anatheme will finish him one year from now. (The events at Davin) Prospero Burns take splace a year before Davin right? but False Gods had Magnus on Prospero trying to save Horus during the whole Davin dream thing.

 

I think when the daemon which has taken Horus' form and says that the anathema will finish him in a years time on Davin is saying that as if they were back on Terra telling Kasper Hawser before he left and went to Fenris for the first time. The confusion arises because there is so many 'dreams' and 'jumps' back and forth between real time and stories.

[Marshal Rohr]

Likely, the reason the Emperor ignored Magnus' call was BECAUSE it was a year before Horus actually fell. Chaos probably used the Warp to convince Magnus it was current or something like that.

[Clewz]

Likely, the reason the Emperor ignored Magnus' call was BECAUSE it was a year before Horus actually fell. Chaos probably used the Warp to convince Magnus it was current or something like that.

 

It comes across in thousand sons that magnus didnt press the issue with the emperor because he realised what a mistake he had done by breaching the chamber

[Gree]

I've got another question.

 

Upon re-reading A Thousand Sons the Emperor says that no Libarius may be maintained and no psychic powers must be used by Astartes. He does not say sorcery, he says psychic powers quite clearly.

 

In Prospero Burns it's somewhat unclear what the Rune Priests do after the ruling. We have Helwinter and another doing some work on Hawser's mind to gain acess (Something clearly psychic) and Helwinter is mentioned as performing some sort of banishment gesture during the final battle, but it's rather unclear if this is a psychic power or some sort of native warding guesture.

 

I know the Wolves consider their philosophy ''control, not power'' but are they still using psychic powers or not despite the Emperor's direct orders? Or am I missing something here?

[elfatto]

Yeah I think that the rune priests are in fact still using their psychic powers to an extent even after the ruling at Nikea.

IIRC in the Garro audiobook, there's an Ultramarine who was a former librarian but is now just a normal battle brother due to the ruling.

Contrast this with the runepriests, who kept their rank, positions, special duties (i.e. probing into Kasper's mind), etc. within their legion. I remember in A Thousand Sons, Ahriman repeatedly refers to Wyrdmake as "hypocrite" during the battle of Prosepro. At the time I just assumed this was just because Wyrdmake was a psyker as well, but your observation adds another layer to it.

[Trel]

It could just be that the majority of the Wolves are in denial of the source of their Rune Priests' powers. Or, coming from a primitive culture, they very well may not believe that they even are psykers, merely channellers of the powers of nature. (Though the Scars, who are just as primitive, fully accept that their Stormseers are psykers.)

 

More realistically, I think the attitude of Russ and the Wolves is that "if we're going to get all the crappy jobs, then we're going to do it our way" and just flat-out deciding that the Emperor's edicts applied to everyone else.

[Gree]

It could just be that the majority of the Wolves are in denial of the source of their Rune Priests' powers. Or, coming from a primitive culture, they very well may not believe that they even are psykers, merely channellers of the powers of nature. (Though the Scars, who are just as primitive, fully accept that their Stormseers are psykers.)

 

I may be reading some scens in Prospero Burns wrong, but ti seems that the Wolves are well aware that there powers come from the Warp.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I believe the Wolves are aware their powers come from the Warp. their discussions with the Thousand Sons prove this to me.

 

WHt did they use their abilites after Nikea? I wish i had a good answer, other than they were being hyprocrites, but i dont. I wished a author as talented as Abnett would include something, a sentence or passage that explained why, but nothing.

 

now we look like what our "haters" want to see, and i for one was hoping for some answer, one way or the other.

 

WLK

[Lord_Caerolion]

It could just be that the majority of the Wolves are in denial of the source of their Rune Priests' powers. Or, coming from a primitive culture, they very well may not believe that they even are psykers, merely channellers of the powers of nature. (Though the Scars, who are just as primitive, fully accept that their Stormseers are psykers.)

 

I may be reading some scens in Prospero Burns wrong, but ti seems that the Wolves are well aware that there powers come from the Warp.

 

Yep, the Wolves are definitely aware of what they're doing, which just turns Russ into one massive hypocrite. "Yes Magnus, we've come to kill you because you still use psykers. Oh, what...these? Uh yeah, those are psykers in my Legion, but that's totally different. I mean... they're... they're... SHUT UP!!"

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

It could just be that the majority of the Wolves are in denial of the source of their Rune Priests' powers. Or, coming from a primitive culture, they very well may not believe that they even are psykers, merely channellers of the powers of nature. (Though the Scars, who are just as primitive, fully accept that their Stormseers are psykers.)

 

I may be reading some scens in Prospero Burns wrong, but ti seems that the Wolves are well aware that there powers come from the Warp.

 

Yep, the Wolves are definitely aware of what they're doing, which just turns Russ into one massive hypocrite. "Yes Magnus, we've come to kill you because you still use psykers. Oh, what...these? Uh yeah, those are psykers in my Legion, but that's totally different. I mean... they're... they're... SHUT UP!!"

 

that was faster than I thought possible, so thanks.

 

 

WLK

[A D-B]

now we look like what our "haters" want to see, and i for one was hoping for some answer, one way or the other.

 

Every Legion needs something as a flaw, though. I mean, with the greatest respect to Prospero Burns (which I liked a hell of a lot) the Wolves were set up to be pretty, uh, impressive, to say the least.

 

I mean, they're not perfect. This is how they're not perfect. They're hypocrites.

 

It's not a bad thing, really. Every Legion (indeed, every faction in the setting) has flaws. There's no reason the Wolves should be the one Legion to avoid it.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

now we look like what our "haters" want to see, and i for one was hoping for some answer, one way or the other.

 

Every Legion needs something as a flaw, though. I mean, with the greatest respect to Prospero Burns (which I liked a hell of a lot) the Wolves were set up to be pretty, uh, impressive, to say the least.

 

I mean, they're not perfect. This is how they're not perfect. They're hypocrites.

 

It's not a bad thing, really. Every Legion (indeed, every faction in the setting) has flaws. There's no reason the Wolves should be the one Legion to avoid it.

 

The Wolves have their flaws, as does every being in creation, but I was hoping that it wouldnt be so...blantant and childish.

 

I think I would have been happy with a short passage where Russ, along with the Custodes and SoS prior to the Invasion of Prospero, gives command to his Legion to unleash their abilities. Maybe if we saw why would Russ do this, I could accept it better. (or maybe i am just a fanboy who has played Wolves too long and would like things more clean cut...I dunno.

 

(This aside, I also enjoyed Prospero Burns. I think it, when combined with A Thousand Sons and the Tales of Heresy "Wolf at the Door", added immense character to the Wolves beyond drunken Vikings, which we desparetly needed.

 

WLK

 

and ps, since i seem to have your attention for a few moments, I absolutely loved The First Heretic!

[Ashe Darke]

Well Magnus is a liability and considering he planted a spy in their legion it might be prudent to sort it out, especially seen as they would very well be asked to wipe them out at some point in the future. They weren't the only legion to use psychic powers after Nikea, the Dark Angels for example. It makes me wonder if the whole thing wasn't just set up to stop Magnus and that's about it, but the Ultramarines being Ultramarines took it seriously, see quote.

IIRC in the Garro audiobook, there's an Ultramarine who was a former librarian but is now just a normal battle brother due to the ruling

 

I also got the impression that they also respected the warp in the sense that they knew it was dangerous as opposed to the T'Sons who thought they had mastered it and used their powers in abundance. Not that is an excuse but they were probably more realistic about what they thought they could control warpwise and they knew that.

 

Plus there's a big difference between fiddling around in someone's brain and completely destroying the Emperor's work back on Terra by psychically kicking the door down. One is forgiveable, the other not so.

[Gree]

Well Magnus is a liability and considering he planted a spy in their legion it might be prudent to sort it out, especially seen as they would very well be asked to wipe them out at some point in the future.

 

Actually that's based mor eof belief that he did it.

It was the daemon at the end who actually planted the spy.

 

 

Plus there's a big difference between fiddling around in someone's brain and completely destroying the Emperor's work back on Terra by psychically kicking the door down. One is forgiveable, the other not so.

 

Well except the law was not just to apply just to the Thousand Sons, everybody should have had to follow it (Including the Dark angels, although I think that's more of a case of GW writers contridicting each other as I don't believe the Nikea issue is even brought up in the Angel books of the Heresy, of course I could be wrong as it's been a while since I've read them)

 

It's different yes, but that's not really the point. The Emperor himself flat out said, in no uncertain terms that there can be no Librarians and no psychic powers. You could excuse the existance of the Rune Priest as a rank with that they had other functions in the Legion, but then you have them using psyhic powers.

 

In fact, the original ruling of Nikea was based (From what I understand) to be on what the Wolves saw as the Sons misuse and lack of control of their powers. The Wolves may be able to control it better, but that's not the point. They essentially did the same thing that the Sons did. They took an action that implies that they knew better than the Emperor (i.e poking around in someone's mind)

 

They may have been right (I personally believe the Wolves where right) but that does not change the fact that they ignored the Emperor's decree.

[Mortemer]

Every Legion (indeed, every faction in the setting) has flaws.

 

Except for the Ultramarines. The flawless chapter/legion :)

[Ashe Darke]

You seemed to have missed the pinch of salt that was supposed to have been taken with my post Gree :)

 

They believed it to be a spy from Magnus which is probably good enough for them.

[Gree]

You seemed to have missed the pinch of salt that was supposed to have been taken with my post Gree :ph34r:

 

Then you should have made it clearer then.

 

They believed it to be a spy from Magnus which is probably good enough for them.

 

Then inform the Emperor about it an like a Sanctioned psyker take care of it. (Only Astartes where prohibited use of psychic powers. I'm sure the Emperor had some sanctioned psykers avalible.)

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Every Legion (indeed, every faction in the setting) has flaws.

 

Except for the Ultramarines. The flawless chapter/legion ;)

 

Pretty sure their dead Primarch constitutes a flaw. :P