Prospero Burns

[Priest33]

QUOTE (Mortemer @ Jan 10 2011, 06:17 AM) *

QUOTE (A D-B @ Jan 10 2011, 05:48 AM) *

Every Legion (indeed, every faction in the setting) has flaws.

 

 

Except for the Ultramarines. The flawless chapter/legion msn-wink.gif

 

 

Pretty sure their dead Primarch constitutes a flaw. tongue.gif

 

Eh I'd say being anal retentive is a small flaw. But eh, each to their own. Never got the whole Ultra love/hate thing. Personally I find them dull, but I don't hate them.. there's just nothing there that interests me because they are so "un-flawed" in a way I guess.

[Gaz Taylor]

Never got the whole Ultra love/hate thing. Personally I find them dull, but I don't hate them.. there's just nothing there that interests me because they are so "un-flawed" in a way I guess.

 

I think it's because we've never really had a book that shows off the chapter very well (not too sure about the Uriel series as I've only read Nightbringer). To me the chapter/legion is very much Romansque/greek theme to them which makes them cool. I think it's because when we see the models or read about the chapter, they are very clean cut and I think a lot of people don't like that or see it as dull (plus they don't get any 'cool' special rules in the Marine codex). The legion may get a different view once ADB tackles the next HH Word Bearer book (although they and Roboute we cool in The First Heretic)

[Lord Ragnarok]

now we look like what our "haters" want to see, and i for one was hoping for some answer, one way or the other.

 

Every Legion needs something as a flaw, though. I mean, with the greatest respect to Prospero Burns (which I liked a hell of a lot) the Wolves were set up to be pretty, uh, impressive, to say the least.

 

I mean, they're not perfect. This is how they're not perfect. They're hypocrites.

 

It's not a bad thing, really. Every Legion (indeed, every faction in the setting) has flaws. There's no reason the Wolves should be the one Legion to avoid it.

 

How are we hypocrites? I thought this was explained precisely in the book.

[A D-B]

now we look like what our "haters" want to see, and i for one was hoping for some answer, one way or the other.

 

Every Legion needs something as a flaw, though. I mean, with the greatest respect to Prospero Burns (which I liked a hell of a lot) the Wolves were set up to be pretty, uh, impressive, to say the least.

 

I mean, they're not perfect. This is how they're not perfect. They're hypocrites.

 

It's not a bad thing, really. Every Legion (indeed, every faction in the setting) has flaws. There's no reason the Wolves should be the one Legion to avoid it.

 

How are we hypocrites? I thought this was explained precisely in the book.

 

It was. Well, they justified it on their terms.

 

Objectively speaking, like the others, I still think it makes them hypocrites. And ultimately, despite their vaunted claims of understanding the warp due to their own self-control, the Space Wolves know nothing compared to the Thousand Sons, and they were still acting in defiance of the Nikea Edict. They just justified it well enough to themselves to consider it going along with the rules. Ignorance is bliss.

[Gree]

How are we hypocrites? I thought this was explained precisely in the book.

 

The Space Wolves may have thought they could control there pwoers, and they may have been right. However that does not change the fact they ignored the Nikea Edict. One could say they did it almost on the same belief that the Sons did it. They thought they knew better than the Emperor and could control it.

[Piousservant]

now we look like what our "haters" want to see, and i for one was hoping for some answer, one way or the other.

 

Every Legion needs something as a flaw, though. I mean, with the greatest respect to Prospero Burns (which I liked a hell of a lot) the Wolves were set up to be pretty, uh, impressive, to say the least.

 

I mean, they're not perfect. This is how they're not perfect. They're hypocrites.

 

It's not a bad thing, really. Every Legion (indeed, every faction in the setting) has flaws. There's no reason the Wolves should be the one Legion to avoid it.

 

How are we hypocrites? I thought this was explained precisely in the book.

 

It was. Well, they justified it on their terms.

 

Objectively speaking, like the others, I still think it makes them hypocrites. And ultimately, despite their vaunted claims of understanding the warp due to their own self-control, the Space Wolves know nothing compared to the Thousand Sons, and they were still acting in defiance of the Nikea Edict. They just justified it well enough to themselves to consider it going along with the rules. Ignorance is bliss.

 

 

IMO the Wolves "flaw", such as it is, has always been their arrogance, which is kinda what causes their hypocrisy. They certainly don't see it like that of course and it maybe isn't as manifest as it is with the Sons, but I always thought the great irony of Prospero was that the Wolves and Sons despite the such marked differences, actually share some very similar characteristics.

 

And that's one thing that I personally thought did come through in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns (overall disapointed with PB though, for much the reasons already mentioned). Maybe that was confirmation bias but I think that everybody has that problem when it comes to these books!!

[Inquisitor Fox]

A quick thought as I distract myself from Inquisition and Grey Knight rumors and glee, is that while there were Legions more prone to violence or causing terror than the Space Wolves this doesn't necessarily make them more of a risk.

 

The most important part of a weapon or tool is the ability to control it and have it do what it's told to do. The World Eaters may be terrors that gobble up planets, but they follow orders. Sometimes to excess, but they follow them. If the Emperor says "Destroy the Planet Bob and leave no survivors" the World Eaters go "Wooot! Party time, lets go!" and raze Planet Bob. The Space Wolves have the character of "Well we burned most of it, then decided that we'd carve our names into those mountains there for a lark. Oh, we inducted this whole continent into our Legion, they were pretty cool and had good booze. So yeah, we mostly did it, good enough, right?" A similar case can be made with the Night Lords. While they use terror and fear as a weapon, they are more prone to follow the orders as they were given.

 

While you can say that going to excess isn't following the orders either, the World Eaters and Night Lords also never struck me as Legions that would intentionally thumb their noses at the lawful authority or chain of command and do their own thing because they felt like it. The Space Wolves followed their own impulses and desires, were guided by their own hearts, throughout. This is what makes them dangerous to the Emperor. The Emperor knows that certain things are going to happen, or sometimes must justify or commit a moral wrong for the greater good (heh!) of the Imperium. Sometimes even though the majority of a planet may be innocent, it might contain some Chaos artifact or Warp portal or something and need razing. Will the Wolves follow orders and raze it all, or will they save the majority of the innocents because they felt it was right? Will following their own minds and hearts actually cause more damage in the end than the good that comes from keeping the Wolves around?

 

A soldier needs to follow orders without question. The Thousand Sons disobeyed orders because they couldn't stop thinking for themselves, the Space Wolves disobeyed orders because they couldn't stop feeling for themselves. In the end, maybe it's more of a case of one Legion stepped over the line of what the Emperor would continue to put up with faster than the other one.

[Gree]

A quick thought as I distract myself from Inquisition and Grey Knight rumors and glee, is that while there were Legions more prone to violence or causing terror than the Space Wolves this doesn't necessarily make them more of a risk.

 

The most important part of a weapon or tool is the ability to control it and have it do what it's told to do. The World Eaters may be terrors that gobble up planets, but they follow orders. Sometimes to excess, but they follow them. If the Emperor says "Destroy the Planet Bob and leave no survivors" the World Eaters go "Wooot! Party time, lets go!" and raze Planet Bob. The Space Wolves have the character of "Well we burned most of it, then decided that we'd carve our names into those mountains there for a lark. Oh, we inducted this whole continent into our Legion, they were pretty cool and had good booze. So yeah, we mostly did it, good enough, right?" A similar case can be made with the Night Lords. While they use terror and fear as a weapon, they are more prone to follow the orders as they were given.

 

While you can say that going to excess isn't following the orders either, the World Eaters and Night Lords also never struck me as Legions that would intentionally thumb their noses at the lawful authority or chain of command and do their own thing because they felt like it. The Space Wolves followed their own impulses and desires, were guided by their own hearts, throughout. This is what makes them dangerous to the Emperor. The Emperor knows that certain things are going to happen, or sometimes must justify or commit a moral wrong for the greater good (heh!) of the Imperium. Sometimes even though the majority of a planet may be innocent, it might contain some Chaos artifact or Warp portal or something and need razing. Will the Wolves follow orders and raze it all, or will they save the majority of the innocents because they felt it was right? Will following their own minds and hearts actually cause more damage in the end than the good that comes from keeping the Wolves around?

 

A soldier needs to follow orders without question. The Thousand Sons disobeyed orders because they couldn't stop thinking for themselves, the Space Wolves disobeyed orders because they couldn't stop feeling for themselves. In the end, maybe it's more of a case of one Legion stepped over the line of what the Emperor would continue to put up with faster than the other one.

 

Actually the entire point of Prospero Burns is that the Space Wolves will do anything. One Wolf even says they are susposed to go past any line.

 

There is'nt really ''Oh we may or may not to it.'' if the Emperor gives the order to raze Planet Bob then the Space Wolves of Prospero Burns will go there and annhilate every living thing they can find. Because that's what they are meant to do. Nothing is beneath them.

 

If the Emperor ordered them to eat baby kittens they would eat baby kittens.

[Inquisitor Fox]

The Space Wolves always struck me more as rebellious teenagers more than anything else though. They might do anything, but it's the why that's important. If they're rebelling simply because they have a grudge against authority, any authority (witness modern views about the Codex Astartes, the Inquisition, the High Lords of Terra...) than they're a major risk that could be just about to be axed.

 

It's more than the results of will they cross the line, it's will they cross the line for the right reasons (because the Emperor ordered it and they need to shut up and follow orders) or the wrong ones (because the Wolves felt like it or decided to improv or that some rules didn't apply to them)?

 

EDIT: improv, not improve. Sorry <_<

[Gree]

The Space Wolves always struck me more as rebellious teenagers more than anything else though. They might do anything, but it's the why that's important. If they're rebelling simply because they have a grudge against authority, any authority (witness modern views about the Codex Astartes, the Inquisition, the High Lords of Terra...) than they're a major risk that could be just about to be axed.

 

It's more than the results of will they cross the line, it's will they cross the line for the right reasons (because the Emperor ordered it and they need to shut up and follow orders) or the wrong ones (because the Wolves felt like it or decided to improv or that some rules didn't apply to them)?

 

EDIT: improv, not improve. Sorry <_<

 

No, that's how modern day Space Wolves are depicted. The Space Wolves in Prospero Burns are kept around because they are the Emperor's pet killers. They are kept to do the dirty work, regardless of their feelings. Russ makes it rather clear he would rather not purge Magnus if there was another solution, but in the end he goes down and purges Prospero.

 

Modern day Space Wolves are very, very different than the ones in Prospero Burns. If say, the Emperor directly ordered the surviors at Armageddon to be purged and sterlised, the Prospero Burns Wolves would have done it in a heartbeat.

[Inquisitor Fox]

It's different aspects of the same essence of character though. Look at two examples of Heresy era Wolves: The Edict of Nikea, and the implementation of the Codex Astartes. Both times the Wolves thumb their noses at the "regulation" and people telling them what to do. The Edict of Nikea they sidestep by saying "Nah, they're not Librarians it's cool" when a psyker is a psyker according to the intention of the rule. That's kind of a dangerous ignoring of orders by any stretch of the imagination (and sort of parallels the hypocrisy idea previously stated).

 

The Codex Astartes they openly tell Guilliman to shove it, and simply go on doing their thing. This is also thumbing their noses at the High Lords of Terra and the Imperium as a whole to boot.

 

Russ follows his duty in the end, because in the end he is a loyal servant of the Imperium and the Emperor. In the end a lot of people who are more of the punk/rebel/biker outlaw lifestyle have pride and are working for the same country or homeland too. The problem is when you're trying to rule a galaxy through order and regulations having any dissidants, even those who are doing things that need done, is a danger to society and rule. This is really the threat that the Wolves give to the rest of the Imperium, a blatant disregard for order, organization, structure, a chain of command, of doing things the Imperiums way instead of the Space Wolves way.

[Gree]

It's different aspects of the same essence of character though. Look at two examples of Heresy era Wolves: The Edict of Nikea, and the implementation of the Codex Astartes. Both times the Wolves thumb their noses at the "regulation" and people telling them what to do. The Edict of Nikea they sidestep by saying "Nah, they're not Librarians it's cool" when a psyker is a psyker according to the intention of the rule. That's kind of a dangerous ignoring of orders by any stretch of the imagination (and sort of parallels the hypocrisy idea previously stated).

 

That would appear to be the only order they've ever ''ignored'' however. And it's more out of arrogance than any kind of inborn disregard for the chain of command. If we actually had a more specific pattern then you could say that. However the consistant behavior of the Wolves in Prospero Burns is different. Have you read Prospero Burns?

 

The Codex Astartes they openly tell Guilliman to shove it, and simply go on doing their thing. This is also thumbing their noses at the High Lords of Terra and the Imperium as a whole to boot.

 

Actually no, we don't know that. The only part of the Codex that appears to be mandatory is the splitting of the Legions (Which they did) anything else, Guilliman's dealings with the Wolves where not elaborated on at all by GW.

 

Russ follows his duty in the end, because in the end he is a loyal servant of the Imperium and the Emperor. In the end a lot of people who are more of the punk/rebel/biker outlaw lifestyle have pride and are working for the same country or homeland too. The problem is when you're trying to rule a galaxy through order and regulations having any dissidants, even those who are doing things that need done, is a danger to society and rule. This is really the threat that the Wolves give to the rest of the Imperium, a blatant disregard for order, organization, structure, a chain of command, of doing things the Imperiums way instead of the Space Wolves way.

 

Except Russ never shows a blatent disregard for the chain of command. In fact we have a Wolf Lord in the book who makes sure he has full regional authority and permission from the regional Imperial commander before he begins heavy combat operations. If anything the Wolves in Prospero Burns are highly respectful to the chain of command and authority.

[Clewz]

The Space Wolves always struck me more as rebellious teenagers more than anything else though. They might do anything, but it's the why that's important. If they're rebelling simply because they have a grudge against authority, any authority (witness modern views about the Codex Astartes, the Inquisition, the High Lords of Terra...) than they're a major risk that could be just about to be axed.

 

It's more than the results of will they cross the line, it's will they cross the line for the right reasons (because the Emperor ordered it and they need to shut up and follow orders) or the wrong ones (because the Wolves felt like it or decided to improv or that some rules didn't apply to them)?

 

EDIT: improv, not improve. Sorry :D

 

No, that's how modern day Space Wolves are depicted. The Space Wolves in Prospero Burns are kept around because they are the Emperor's pet killers. They are kept to do the dirty work, regardless of their feelings. Russ makes it rather clear he would rather not purge Magnus if there was another solution, but in the end he goes down and purges Prospero.

 

Modern day Space Wolves are very, very different than the ones in Prospero Burns. If say, the Emperor directly ordered the surviors at Armageddon to be purged and sterlised, the Prospero Burns Wolves would have done it in a heartbeat.

 

Theres the possibility they might of done if the Emperor ordered it instead of the High Lords

[Lord Ragnarok]

now we look like what our "haters" want to see, and i for one was hoping for some answer, one way or the other.

 

Every Legion needs something as a flaw, though. I mean, with the greatest respect to Prospero Burns (which I liked a hell of a lot) the Wolves were set up to be pretty, uh, impressive, to say the least.

 

I mean, they're not perfect. This is how they're not perfect. They're hypocrites.

 

It's not a bad thing, really. Every Legion (indeed, every faction in the setting) has flaws. There's no reason the Wolves should be the one Legion to avoid it.

 

How are we hypocrites? I thought this was explained precisely in the book.

 

It was. Well, they justified it on their terms.

 

Objectively speaking, like the others, I still think it makes them hypocrites. And ultimately, despite their vaunted claims of understanding the warp due to their own self-control, the Space Wolves know nothing compared to the Thousand Sons, and they were still acting in defiance of the Nikea Edict. They just justified it well enough to themselves to consider it going along with the rules. Ignorance is bliss.

 

I don't know, Hellwinter(I think) mentioned that of course the Imperium needs psykers to work properly, that SW's were not some simpletons who squeaked "mice!" at magic and jumped on the table. That they saw use, that they used it as well. The difference was that the Tsons, dabbled further. They didn't follow any limits. They wanted to know EVERYTHING. Therein lies the danger and the line SW's thought shouldn't be crossed.

 

I would say that the SW's weakness, (and at the same time their strength given their role) is their utter loyalty to do the "dirty jobs". I think that is a weakness when you just "do" and don't make your own decisions.

[Inquisitor Fox]

That would appear to be the only order they've ever ''ignored'' however. And it's more out of arrogance than any kind of inborn disregard for the chain of command.

That's the arrogance though of the rebellious teenager. It's beginning to show itself here, the thoughts of "I know what I'm doing" and the same nickname and idea I attribute to my own son in the statement "Mr. Know-it-all strikes again." Simply because they can dance the song and dance quite well doesn't necessarily mean they ever really agree or believe the things they are doing.

 

Actually no, we don't know that. The only part of the Codex that appears to be mandatory is the splitting of the Legions (Which they did) anything else, Guilliman's dealings with the Wolves where not elaborated on at all by GW.

That's because the exact wordings of the Codex have never been stated ever. While they may have grudgingly split their legion (although even that's questionable.. all we know is they made successor Chapters with their geneseed) they obviously ignored any part of it that dealt with organization, structure, the roles different groups or individuals were supposed to take. That's kind of thumbing your nose at a document as far as I can tell :D

 

Except Russ never shows a blatent disregard for the chain of command. In fact we have a Wolf Lord in the book who makes sure he has full regional authority and permission from the regional Imperial commander before he begins heavy combat operations. If anything the Wolves in Prospero Burns are highly respectful to the chain of command and authority.

They follow it yes. Do they really internally respect it?

 

My eldest son is ADHD and ODD (oppositional defiant disorder). He can follow the rules. In fact he often knows the rules quite well. That doesn't mean he respects them. He is also very good at learning the system because he is quite intelligent, and then manipulating it to the utmost of his ability, while still staying within the bounds of what is allowed so that he can point and say "Nu unh, I followed all the rules, look!"

 

When you really think something is asinine, but are required to follow various rules and documents, you can see someone who appears to be incredibly detailed in making sure all their T's are crossed and all their I's dotted, but it's really because they think it's the biggest piece of garbage ever so they make an exaggerated show of being able to legitimately say they did everything they were supposed to before tossing it to the side and doing their own thing. They follow it to the letter, but they the entire time think it's garbage and are rebelling the entire time. "You want me to do this? Fine.. I'll do it, I'll do EXACTLY what it tells me to do and nothing more, and we're going to go one line at a time very slowly to make sure each thing is checked off."

 

I'm also not meaning to imply that the Wolves are necessarily conscious of their inner teen rebellion that seems to only grow over 10,000 years. Most teenagers also don't consciously set out to instantly oppose anything someone tells them to do, it just sorta happens that way.

 

I also think that part of what the Horus Heresy series is doing is setting up a baseline for the various groups, a before snapshot so to speak, that shows character traits that only become more magnified as time goes on. As the geneseed begins to degrade over time various traits are magnified, both positive and negative. Some of these traits are inborn of the primarch involved, some of them seem to be acquired based on events of the Heresy itself. Seeing the seeds of the future in the present snapshot though, I think that was intentional.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Theres the possibility they might of done if the Emperor ordered it instead of the High Lords

 

That would be a miracle and I don't see any chapter NOT doing anything the Emperor ordered.

[Gree]

That's the arrogance though of the rebellious teenager. It's beginning to show itself here, the thoughts of "I know what I'm doing" and the same nickname and idea I attribute to my own son in the statement "Mr. Know-it-all strikes again." Simply because they can dance the song and dance quite well doesn't necessarily mean they ever really agree or believe the things they are doing.

 

So that would be one incident in two centuries then.

 

That's because the exact wordings of the Codex have never been stated ever. While they may have grudgingly split their legion (although even that's questionable.. all we know is they made successor Chapters with their geneseed) they obviously ignored any part of it that dealt with organization, structure, the roles different groups or individuals were supposed to take. That's kind of thumbing your nose at a document as far as I can tell ;)

 

That because none of that appears to be mandatory. The main point of the Codex was to reduce the power of the Legions, and it happened. The wording in Index Astartes: Imperial Fists, and Index Astartes: Codex Astartes, makes it sound like only the Legion-splitting aspect was important. Anything else was optional.

 

In fact the organizational aspects are referred to as guidelines, in the Codex Astartes article.

 

The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history

 

The Chapters that rigidly follow the recommendations of the Codex Astartes are sometimes referred to as Codex Chapters.

 

It's referred to as ''guidelines'' and ''recomendations''. In fact the only part that seems to actually be required is the splitting of the Legions.

 

They follow it yes. Do they really internally respect it?

 

Appearantly yes.

My eldest son is ADHD and ODD (oppositional defiant disorder). He can follow the rules. In fact he often knows the rules quite well. That doesn't mean he respects them. He is also very good at learning the system because he is quite intelligent, and then manipulating it to the utmost of his ability, while still staying within the bounds of what is allowed so that he can point and say "Nu unh, I followed all the rules, look!"

 

I have multiple relatives with those disorders, I am fully aware of what they are. The Wolves, as far as I can see, are most definitely not anything like your example.

 

When you really think something is asinine, but are required to follow various rules and documents, you can see someone who appears to be incredibly detailed in making sure all their T's are crossed and all their I's dotted, but it's really because they think it's the biggest piece of garbage ever so they make an exaggerated show of being able to legitimately say they did everything they were supposed to before tossing it to the side and doing their own thing. They follow it to the letter, but they the entire time think it's garbage and are rebelling the entire time. "You want me to do this? Fine.. I'll do it, I'll do EXACTLY what it tells me to do and nothing more, and we're going to go one line at a time very slowly to make sure each thing is checked off."

 

Except that's not the sort of behavior shown at all in Prospero Burns. They don't take on a task and deliberately skewer it. They present themselves and their role clearly and make sure they match up properly. Ogvai could have given the middle finger to the Imperial command when he arrived at the warzone, but he made sure everything was in order before he launched his attack on the Quetitude.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Except that's not the sort of behavior shown at all in Prospero Burns. They don't take on a task and deliberately skewer it. They present themselves and their role clearly and make sure they match up properly. Ogvai could have given the middle finger to the Imperial command when he arrived at the warzone, but he made sure everything was in order before he launched his attack on the Quetitude.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Tasks are not deliberately skewered. They in fact show up and make sure all the T's are crossed and I's are dotted and everything they Have to do first is done, so that they can then get on with it. This is the behavior of "Alright, I'll do all this stuff because I'm supposed to so lets fill out all the required paperwork and get the boring part done" and it's done very formally and correctly. Outward compliance which no one can find fault with, perhaps to cover up more internal thoughts that they don't want to show everyone else. Sort of the compensating for internal quirks or character traits.

 

Similarly to a documentary I saw about the 'warrior gene' of quickened temper responses and the like. Various groups were tested for it, gang members (yes), bikers (mixed), MMA fighters (all negative) and Bhuddist monks (all positive). Yes, the Bhuddist monks, who went to the other extreme (utter pacifism) to help fight against what they saw as evil in themselves and their own nature. It's entirely possible that the Wolves are being the utter souls of following the rules and everything they're supposed to do in order to compensate for the fact that they really don't want to do it that way at all, and perhaps 10,000 years later they simply don't care about dancing the dance any more.

[Gree]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Tasks are not deliberately skewered. They in fact show up and make sure all the T's are crossed and I's are dotted and everything they Have to do first is done, so that they can then get on with it. This is the behavior of "Alright, I'll do all this stuff because I'm supposed to so lets fill out all the required paperwork and get the boring part done" and it's done very formally and correctly. Outward compliance which no one can find fault with, perhaps to cover up more internal thoughts that they don't want to show everyone else. Sort of the compensating for internal quirks or character traits.

 

Except it was't done to compensate for anything. It was'nt done for a need but more of a deliberate want.

 

It's entirely possible that the Wolves are being the utter souls of following the rules and everything they're supposed to do in order to compensate for the fact that they really don't want to do it that way at all, and perhaps 10,000 years later they simply don't care about dancing the dance any more.

 

Actually if anything the Wolves show relish in there role. If you've read Prospero Burns you would know that one of the central themes of the Wolves is that they have no complaints about their positon or their task at all.

[Inquisitor Fox]

That's exactly what I'm saying. Tasks are not deliberately skewered. They in fact show up and make sure all the T's are crossed and I's are dotted and everything they Have to do first is done, so that they can then get on with it. This is the behavior of "Alright, I'll do all this stuff because I'm supposed to so lets fill out all the required paperwork and get the boring part done" and it's done very formally and correctly. Outward compliance which no one can find fault with, perhaps to cover up more internal thoughts that they don't want to show everyone else. Sort of the compensating for internal quirks or character traits.

 

Except it was't done to compensate for anything. It was'nt done for a need but more of a deliberate want.

 

It's entirely possible that the Wolves are being the utter souls of following the rules and everything they're supposed to do in order to compensate for the fact that they really don't want to do it that way at all, and perhaps 10,000 years later they simply don't care about dancing the dance any more.

 

Actually if anything the Wolves show relish in there role. If you've read Prospero Burns you would know that one of the central themes of the Wolves is that they have no complaints about their positon or their task at all.

Alright, I'll attempt one last time to show my point because these last two comments seem to say that you aren't seeing it, then I'll be done :pinch:

 

I am not saying the Space Wolves don't relish their role or don't want to be enforcers of the Emperor. I am saying that perhaps the Space Wolves dislike all the structure, politicking, having to organize everything and talk with all these different groups that keep them from doing the thing they love. Perhaps they have learned to be very very good at those things simply because they dislike them so much.

 

Children and Teenagers want to be good. They want people to be happy with what they have done and be proud of them. They do not like being taken to task or yelled at or shown how they did something wrong. So they want to do it correctly... that doesn't mean they like it.

 

You seem to think that I am trying to say the Space Wolves don't like enforcing the Emperor's will or going around being enforcers, or doing the things no one wants to do. I'm not. I actually think that since the Space Wolves have a LOT of practice at doing things they don't want to do (like following all the formal rigamaroo) it actually makes them very good at doing things they emotionally or morally don't want to do (act as an executioner to one of their own). You start getting practice going over lines in other areas it becomes easier to go over one more line morally. Breaking the rules is breaking the rules after all, whether its a legal rule or a moral rule. Part of the reason they make good executioners is because they're good at selectively breaking the rules when it needs done.

 

I think the core trait of the Wolves is they are guided by their own inner beliefs and moral compass throughout. Internal authority as opposed to external authority. They still fulfil their duty because they after all are Space Marines, but they don't believe in authority for authorities sake, or the external authority of other people.

 

They can follow it, and follow it well. They can make sure that everything is done nicely and in order so that no one can question it or think they didn't do what they were supposed to. They in fact want to do what they're supposed to, both to please their parent (the Emperor) and to keep everyone else off their back. This doesn't mean that they like the rules, structure, and paperwork aspect of their job. That's just another type of external authority enforced upon them. So they want to do it well, so that they can do it efficiently and get it over with so they can then do the part they like. They want to do it well so that no one will yell at them for not doing it. In essence, their disdain for it makes them very good at it, simply so that they can get rid of the hot potato.

[Gree]

Alright, I'll attempt one last time to show my point because these last two comments seem to say that you aren't seeing it, then I'll be done :pinch:

 

I do see your point. However it does not match up at all to how the Wolves are shown in Prospero Burns.

 

I am not saying the Space Wolves don't relish their role or don't want to be enforcers of the Emperor. I am saying that perhaps the Space Wolves dislike all the structure, politicking, having to organize everything and talk with all these different groups that keep them from doing the thing they love. Perhaps they have learned to be very very good at those things simply because they dislike them so much.

 

They don't appear to have any opinion on the matter actually. It's presented in a rather neutral tone in Prospero Burns. They but more more attention as to how they are precived.

 

Children and Teenagers want to be good. They want people to be happy with what they have done and be proud of them. They do not like being taken to task or yelled at or shown how they did something wrong. So they want to do it correctly... that doesn't mean they like it.

 

The Wolves are not children or teenagers fortunately.

 

You seem to think that I am trying to say the Space Wolves don't like enforcing the Emperor's will or going around being enforcers, or doing the things no one wants to do.

 

I don't think that actually. I'm actually just pointing out how they act in Prospero Burns.

 

Part of the reason they make good executioners is because they're good at selectively breaking the rules when it needs done.

 

Actually Bear seems to think that they are the rules.

 

I think the core trait of the Wolves is they are guided by their own inner beliefs and moral compass throughout. Internal authority as opposed to external authority. They still fulfil their duty because they after all are Space Marines, but they don't believe in authority for authorities sake, or the external authority of other people.

 

Actually the Wolves seem to hold quite an amount of respect for the Emperor and Horus. In Prospero Burns they where upset that they where unabel to swear loyalty to Horus as Warmaster at Ullanor.

 

They can follow it, and follow it well. They can make sure that everything is done nicely and in order so that no one can question it or think they didn't do what they were supposed to. They in fact want to do what they're supposed to, both to please their parent (the Emperor) and to keep everyone else off their back. This doesn't mean that they like the rules, structure, and paperwork aspect of their job. That's just another type of external authority enforced upon them. So they want to do it well, so that they can do it efficiently and get it over with so they can then do the part they like. They want to do it well so that no one will yell at them for not doing it. In essence, their disdain for it makes them very good at it, simply so that they can get rid of the hot potato.

 

Except they don't get rid of it like a hot potato. The Wolves in Prospero Burns really don't act at all like you describe them.

[Inquisitor Fox]

The Wolves are not children or teenagers fortunately.

They are not literally physical children or teenagers no, however the literary role that seems to be given to their characters overall (whether they're there initially or as they grow to become) is that of the punk teenager rebel, albeit a loyal one. So seeing the beginnings of that isn't implausible. As a whole, the character of the Chapter as it becomes is that of a older teen who thinks they know better than everyone else, and I think there's signs of it even as far back as the Heresy novels.

 

Part of the reason they make good executioners is because they're good at selectively breaking the rules when it needs done.

 

Actually Bear seems to think that they are the rules.

Which would be more evidence of them thinking they know best, if they think they are the rules instead of what the Emperor actually says (which really are the rules) :P

 

I think the core trait of the Wolves is they are guided by their own inner beliefs and moral compass throughout. Internal authority as opposed to external authority. They still fulfil their duty because they after all are Space Marines, but they don't believe in authority for authorities sake, or the external authority of other people.

 

Actually the Wolves seem to hold quite an amount of respect for the Emperor and Horus. In Prospero Burns they where upset that they where unabel to swear loyalty to Horus as Warmaster at Ullanor.

Right, this is an example of Internal Authority. The Wolves have respect and loyalty for the Individuals the Emperor and Horus. The Individual has earned respect in the feelings of the Wolves by Internal Authority. The Position of Emperor and Warmaster doesn't matter to them, the External Authority by an office means nothing. They feel the Individuals are worthy of respect, their inner morals say to respect them, so they do.

 

Except they don't get rid of it like a hot potato. The Wolves in Prospero Burns really don't act at all like you describe them.

You totally missed the potato comment, but that's alright :)

 

Okay, now I'm really done *chuckles* Apparently I'm just reading more into things than others do and looking at potential motivations and what is making people tick, not just what they do but the why's.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@I.N.P: not to add fuel to the fire, but i think Gree has a better handle on how the Wolves were presented in Prospero Burns then you do. I am actually kinda suprised on some of your P.o.V. that you took from the book.

 

WLK

[Inquisitor Fox]

Eh, it wouldn't be the first time I'm off in left field somewhere or have a wonky view of things. I'll reread it and see if I can see where you guys are coming from as well :P No harm no foul after all!

[Gree]

They are not literally physical children or teenagers no, however the literary role that seems to be given to their characters overall (whether they're there initially or as they grow to become) is that of the punk teenager rebel, albeit a loyal one. So seeing the beginnings of that isn't implausible. As a whole, the character of the Chapter as it becomes is that of a older teen who thinks they know better than everyone else, and I think there's signs of it even as far back as the Heresy novels.

 

Except they don't appear that way at all.

Which would be more evidence of them thinking they know best, if they think they are the rules instead of what the Emperor actually says (which really are the rules) :D

 

Actually what Bear was referring to in that context was the Wolves roel as a sanction. Which turned out to be true and supported by the Custodes.

 

Right, this is an example of Internal Authority. The Wolves have respect and loyalty for the Individuals the Emperor and Horus. The Individual has earned respect in the feelings of the Wolves by Internal Authority. The Position of Emperor and Warmaster doesn't matter to them, the External Authority by an office means nothing. They feel the Individuals are worthy of respect, their inner morals say to respect them, so they do.

 

Actually no, Godsmote talks about the position of Warmaster and Longfang defines Primarch by their roles, not by themselves. The Wolves even define themselves by their position, not by their personalities.

 

You totally missed the potato comment, but that's alright -_-

 

No, I don't quite believe I have. The behvior of the Wolves as you seem to put it does not really match up at all to how they are presented in Prospero Burns.

 

Okay, now I'm really done *chuckles* Apparently I'm just reading more into things than others do and looking at potential motivations and what is making people tick, not just what they do but the why's.

 

Except none of what you are saying really matches up to how the Wolves present themselves or how they define themselves.