Struggling with Mechanised Marines

[Gothical]

I'm trying to build a mechanised army for my Marines, but I keep running into brick walls when it comes to list building. I just can't seem to get the balance right: between including models I like, mounting my units, having enough "armoured threats" to draw firepower AND having long-ranged capability so that the enemy don't sit out of harms way and blow my transports to hell and back. I can just about sort things out at 2000 points, but getting it *right* in 1500 points is a huge challenge.

 

Given that I keep brick-walling on the army list front, I figured I'd ask for some opinions on the tactic/"units-fitting-into-the-army" side of things.

 

Tactics

 

There is one dilemma that keeps cropping up - with a mechanised army, do I aim to keep everything together for a single sledgehammer-type attack, or do I use the inherent mobility of the list to form "battle-groups" within the army list and attack from multiple directions, to pincer the enemy and eventually linking the two forces together (and making use of Deepstrike elements to aid in this).

 

Conventional wisdom states that you should keep the army together and attack a single weak point in the enemy's deployment - however I find that on the tabletop this means that the enemy can just stack their anti-vehicle weapons and "counter-flank" your force once it engages (and thus inevitably loses momentum) as they know where you're going to strike and can plan accordingly. Given the nature of deployment in the game, is it not better to give two (or even three) avenues of attack, so that depending on how the enemy reacts one is automatically a "distraction/flanking" force and the other is a "main strike" (assuming the elements are self-sufficiently supported to not run into issues)? The weakness of the multi-prong attack is that you can be engaging over too wide a frontage, meaning that you're not taking advantage of the Marines' statlines/skills and can be overwhelmed on both prongs at the same time by a canny opponent.

 

Since mechanised lists have inherent mobility, it makes sense to maximise the short-ranged potential of the squads. Sternguard, and even the humble Tactical Squad, can dish out a lot of damage when motoring up to a squad, disembarking and unleashing a hail of fire from their guns - particularly when you start doubling-up on these units. But this means you have an army that has a maximum threat-range of around 26" (12" vehicle move, 2" disembark, 12" firing) and this means that in the early turns of the game the enemy can take your army apart by virtue of immobilising/destroying the rather vulnerable Rhinos - particularly with things like the ever-popular "Rifleman Dread". It makes sense to invest in some units that can dish out long-ranged firepower of your own - to take out the worst of the enemy's anti-vehicular firepower, and thus giving your force the upper hand...but doing so takes points away from the forward elements, particularly in the 1500 points limit.

 

When these other factors are taken into consideration, I am finding it extremely difficult to fit in armoured threats - the points are just too darn tight. So despite the fact that I have mobile units and my own long-ranged firepower to help it live in the initial turns, the enemy still only has AV11 to deal with for the most parts (Predators tend to hang back, as they have mobility issues, and don't get targeted heavily so Dreadnoughts would be more threatening but just can't be afforded).

 

++

 

These conundrums are proving to be a massive pain for me, and establishing how a mechanised list deals with these issues may help me with the problems that I am currently having.

 

In my various ponders, there are some units that I am having real issues working out whether they belong in the mechanised list:

 

1) Command Squad - the ability to really go to town on Special Weapons, or give the squad a close-combat edge, means that you can support Tactical Squads extremely well. Tactical Squads are best configured in an (shooting) anti-infantry role, so having a Command Squad with 3 Melta/Plasma Guns and a Power Fist (and a Commander with appropriate Combi-Weapon and Relic Blade) means that the squads' weaknesses are covered - tanks/monsters can be downed in short order, and enemy units can be engaged in close-combat with a relatively high chance of a decent outcome (enabling the Tacticals to target more enemy units while the HQ holds up the previous threat). It is costly however, which can make it very hard to choose whether to field it or not as points start getting tight.

 

2) Terminators - yes, the normal ones. I can see Assault Terminators being somewhat viable in the mechanised list, given they add the huge "Shoot Me!" Land Raider and offer some very potent close-combat power, but the cost is astronomical at, in 1500 points, nearly 1/3rd of the total army allowance. So I'm looking at the regular ones - the ability to Deepstrike and still affect the game can be excellent (particularly if we go down the "two-prong" route as it enables you to either open up a third front and catch the opponent in a situation they really rather they weren't in, or to reinforce an attack that is flagging in the face of enemy resistance). With a threat range of 30" (6" move, 24" firing) they add more mobile firepower, despite not being mounted themselves. I'm also a big fan of the models.

 

3) Scouts. With a Land Speeder Storm they fit right into the force, but I am concerned about the lack of durability in a force that is already going to be numerically smaller than other Marine armies. The high-speed attacks/repositions they can pull off are not to be overlooked of course, but I always tend to find that more Power Armoured bodies are needed.

 

4) Assault Marines. This is another unit that I like, and would love to field, but oh boy do they seem to have issues in the mechanised list. With Jump Packs they can be an easy target for enemy ordnance (even behind cover) as there is little/no other infantry out in the open on the battlefield. They can get free transports - ace! But they can't assault out of them, and lose the massive benefits of the extended assault range and "hopping over" that Jump Packs provide. They also are another anti-infantry squad, which is a role the Mechanised list has covered pretty well.

 

5) Heavy Support. I have lumped this one all together. Devastators, lambasted by the internet I know, may actually have a place - as the rest of the army is riding in its "cover", you have ample places on the board to dig them in. The fact they can use ruins to improve the elevations of their shots, and not be silenced by a "glancing hit" from the enemy gives them a slight edge over the vehicles in my view. But then you are lacking on the armoured target front - which Predators can easily provide, although recently I have gone off them because they *need* to move to get clear LOS or decent shots, which severely cuts down on their firepower no matter the variant. Vindicators are the next obvious choice, everyone fears the pie-plate...but that's the issue. A single "Weapon Destroyed" result renders them impotent, and whilst it can be argued that the fact they draw enough fire for that to occur is a good thing, you have paid points for what is now mobile terrain - if it is not outright destroyed thanks to the poor side-armour - and it doesn't give the force the needed long-range goodness (plus killing hordes is not exactly an issue for a Mech list). Whirlwinds again are too focused on anti-infantry and do not bring the distraction role to the table as they tend to be hiding out of LOS anyway (not that they are bad, indeed Indirect Fire can be useful with the restricted LOS from having so many vehicles on the field). The Thunderfire can draw a fair amount of heat its way but it is too static to really work in such a fluid force, and Land Raiders are just too expensive.

 

++

 

My thanks to anyone who actually made their way through this topic.

 

I've browsed through the forum and there doesn't seem to be a proper thread on how to deal with the situations I have brought up that my previous army lists have found themselves in. I'd appreciate some advice on the general running of a Mech list, and roughly how to get the balance of short-ranged power, long-ranged covering fire, and armoured targets to pull fire from the Transports.

[norngahl]

To be honest-

 

if you wanna play mech, go mech. Meaning, at 1500 points, 2x5 tactical marines and a HQ are the only bodies you fiel. Point.

 

Point with mech is target overload. That means you bring more mechanized units than your enemy can deal with. The more you put into bodies, the less mech units you get, the smaller the disbalance between enemies antitank and your mech units gets.

 

I use this list at 1500

 

Libby, TDA, SS, Nullzone, Vortex

Dread, TLAC, PC

Dread, TLAC, PC

5 Tacs, Razor with TLMM (IA2)

5 Tacs, Razor with TLMM (IA2)

2 LS, 2xTML, 1xMM, 1xHB

2 LS, 2xTML, 1xMM, 1xHB

TFC 100

TFC 100

LR, MM, Missile

 

Libby into the LR.

 

Anything in this List is juicy. Anything.

 

It´s not that impossible that you have most times low armor values.. You should make use of your lists strengh, and that is range. Put the TFC, the dreads and (if possible) the razorbacks into 3+ cover (combat style 1 dread, 1 TFC, 1 razorback) on two different ruins. Deploy the Landspeeder behind cover on the flanks, Put the LR between the two bunkered combat configurations..

 

The LS work over cross to grap enemies vehicles side armor. 8 rockets a turn are nice. The MM on each pair are there to crack LR or such if needed, otherwise if the enemy advances with their vehicles you get another firepower boost. It´s important to keep things versatile- with the LS you can provide very decent anti tank (2xMM, 8 missiles) and decent anti horde (8 blasts, 4 heavy shots) as well. Unless needed, stay out of 24" towards the enemy. Many armies rely on close ranged weapons, distance is your friend.

 

TFC with 3+ cover save aren´t a thing to sniff at. And two of them really hurt hordes. Slow down footslogging heavy hitters, blast units out of cover. Nice. And if the TFC goes, you got a free techmarine worth 75 points to repair your vehicles/ hide in cover/ go into a razorback to deny points. Awesome!

 

Dreads are multi purpose. They are slightly worser than Rifleman dreads (1 strengh 7 shot less) but therefore you get an ap2 plate. Important to have, so you can deal with enemy termies or something comparable. Never let me down. Can take out light - medium tanks with ease and hurts marines very much.

 

5 tacs in razor.. Well, you must take these.. So nothing more to say.

 

Libby in LR. Tough vehicle, good range, soaks fire. Many people try to ignore them due to thei (relativly) low damage output. Ever seen an AV 14, 2+/3++ Nullzone denying the TH/SS termies their save, or the DE vehicle save, or the nob biker /etc save? Somehow, most people try to get rid of it as fast as possible, because their armies are based onto a few hard hitters that rely on such saves. As well, a LR always means a lot of points. If the LR blows up, the Libby is still very survivable. He can support with vortex, if needed or if nullzone doesn´t bring much for that special enemy, too.

 

At least, I never had a loss with this list. At the moment it is 21/1/0. The draw was against a footslogging guard army with tons of lascanonns, but the dude said that was his outdated, last edition army.

 

Against some opponets you will have an easy victory (mainly balanced lists in my opinion), against some it will be more difficult. You just need to get a feeling for target priority, shooting order and gain/loss decisions..

 

 

 

greetings

[DarkGuard]

I'd like to dispute the idea that a decent mech force should only take about 11 guys in it. When you think about it, that's not an awful lot of guys, only 10 scoring models, which, if the Razorbacks get blown, will die quickly. Plus its 180pts that doesn't contribute to the battle in any way.

 

Now my list I'm thinking of using (once we get back to 1500pts, silly 1000pts tournament :()

Libby: Null Zone Avenger

9 Sternguard w power fist, 4x combi-meltas, Rhino

Rifleman Dread

Rifleman Dread

10 Tactical Squad w flamer, combi-flamer, MM, Rhino

10 Tactical Squad w flamer, combi-flamer, MM, Rhino

5 Tactical Squad w Razorback w las plas turret

Vindicator w siege shield

Vindicator w siege shield

 

Comes in at 1500pts. Now when I was planning this list Interrogator-Chaplain Adam, I was planing to maximise on the some of the key strengths that you yourself determined, close range shooting. So my mounted up squads are all shooting ones, as I have no intention to take Land Raiders so it's pointless if I have CC specialists. If my troops are in combat I'm going to want to break away. So my 3 Rhinos have full squads, one with Sternguard and Libby and the others with Tactical Squads. The MM means I can take and hold midfield, while the dual flamers mean I can put the hurt on enemy infantry. Meanwhile, the Sternguard spearhead into the unit killing anything in the way (and the can with the combi-meltas).

 

On the other side of the field my Rifleman Dreads and Razorback stick back and keep up long ranged fire, targeting vehicles mainly, while the Razorback squad can also take objectives. Finally, the Vindicators tend to sit between these lines, and more importantly act as a massive fire magnet.

 

In this list, no one starts on foot, their all mounted. I have 35 men in total, with 4 AV11,11,10 vehicles, 2 AV12,12,10 vehicles and 2 AV13,11,10 vehicles. So I have 8 vehicles, and provide a range of threats, from the accurate high strength rifleman dreads, to the extremely but better armoured Vindicators, to my squads in transports, in particular the Sternguard squad who can put the hurt on the enemy.

 

Now I'm missing out on 1 vehicle (plus two artillery units) compared to norngahl's list, but I still have high saturation, and more bodies to take objectives and hurt the enemy with. Plus I'd find it hard to get that many vehicles in one case, another factor with my army.

 

In the end, it comes down to what you want. If you want to focus on shooting, then I'd say leave CC to a minimum. Unless you want to use 5 man squads in Razorbacks only use 1 elite unit as a line breaker. And use heavy support to find something threatening, whether its a Vindicator, or a Pred, your enemy is bound to shoot at it. Good luck.

[Brother Nihm]

There is one dilemma that keeps cropping up - with a mechanised army, do I aim to keep everything together for a single sledgehammer-type attack, or do I use the inherent mobility of the list to form "battle-groups" within the army list and attack from multiple directions, to pincer the enemy and eventually linking the two forces together (and making use of Deepstrike elements to aid in this).

That, depends entirely on the mission played, your opponent's deployment etc etc. There is no easy answer for it besides this.

 

You will want to aim for two things, many threats, synergy, and redundancy/durability. CSM got changed with the latest codex so that we only truly excel if we Mech up. Here's a few thoughts from a CSM player POV.

 

Since mechanised lists have inherent mobility, it makes sense to maximise the short-ranged potential of the squads. Sternguard, and even the humble Tactical Squad, can dish out a lot of damage when motoring up to a squad, disembarking and unleashing a hail of fire from their guns - particularly when you start doubling-up on these units. But this means you have an army that has a maximum threat-range of around 26" (12" vehicle move, 2" disembark, 12" firing) and this means that in the early turns of the game the enemy can take your army apart by virtue of immobilising/destroying the rather vulnerable Rhinos - particularly with things like the ever-popular "Rifleman Dread". It makes sense to invest in some units that can dish out long-ranged firepower of your own - to take out the worst of the enemy's anti-vehicular firepower, and thus giving your force the upper hand...but doing so takes points away from the forward elements, particularly in the 1500 points limit.

Hence the need to saturate the board with high-threat targets, given enough targets he wont be able to stop them all.

 

When these other factors are taken into consideration, I am finding it extremely difficult to fit in armoured threats - the points are just too darn tight. So despite the fact that I have mobile units and my own long-ranged firepower to help it live in the initial turns, the enemy still only has AV11 to deal with for the most parts (Predators tend to hang back, as they have mobility issues, and don't get targeted heavily so Dreadnoughts would be more threatening but just can't be afforded).

I think your biggest problem is the way your perceive Mech-lists to be. From what I can see you tend to mix Armored-lists with Mech. Mech is simply a list where ALL troops (or the vast majority) are in transports to take advantage of the enhanced mobility and protection that they offer to infantry. Neither Dreadnoughts or Predators are an obvious choice for Mech-lists, that is not to say they cannot work but given their nature - as you yourself said, they aren't first choices because they do not compliment true Mech very well.

 

1) Command Squad - the ability to really go to town on Special Weapons, or give the squad a close-combat edge, means that you can support Tactical Squads extremely well. Tactical Squads are best configured in an (shooting) anti-infantry role, so having a Command Squad with 3 Melta/Plasma Guns and a Power Fist (and a Commander with appropriate Combi-Weapon and Relic Blade) means that the squads' weaknesses are covered - tanks/monsters can be downed in short order, and enemy units can be engaged in close-combat with a relatively high chance of a decent outcome (enabling the Tacticals to target more enemy units while the HQ holds up the previous threat). It is costly however, which can make it very hard to choose whether to field it or not as points start getting tight.

Thing is, aren't Sternguard a better, not to mention cheaper way of dealing with MC's? and aren't Attack Bikes and Landspeeders better and cheaper at dealing with tanks?

Personally speaking I wouldn't use a Command Squad (not that CSM get the option any more but even if I did play Loyalists I wouldn't take them), I'd take an IC and attach him to something else.

 

2) Terminators - yes, the normal ones. I can see Assault Terminators being somewhat viable in the mechanised list, given they add the huge "Shoot Me!" Land Raider and offer some very potent close-combat power, but the cost is astronomical at, in 1500 points, nearly 1/3rd of the total army allowance.

Bingo, I'd take a 5 man (or maybe even two) 5 man Terminator squads instead and load them up with Anti-tank (Cyclone).

So I'm looking at the regular ones - the ability to Deepstrike and still affect the game can be excellent (particularly if we go down the "two-prong" route as it enables you to either open up a third front and catch the opponent in a situation they really rather they weren't in, or to reinforce an attack that is flagging in the face of enemy resistance). With a threat range of 30" (6" move, 24" firing) they add more mobile firepower, despite not being mounted themselves. I'm also a big fan of the models.

Same here, a big fan, and for that reason I'm also using a squad in my 1500 pt list. The thing to keep in mind is that once they're down, they don't get to 'cross the board' in the same way as a Raider Rush list would let them. This is perfectly fine if you're lucky with the DS (I use Icons, but I guess TP Homers are a good choice as well) but if you deviate too much, it means an entire turn (in the latter stages of the game) wasted as targets and objectives might be out of range. Not a big issue, but something to keep in mind nevertheless. In short, plan 3 Turns ahead (from Turn 2 and onward of course) when you deploy them.

 

3) Scouts. With a Land Speeder Storm they fit right into the force, but I am concerned about the lack of durability in a force that is already going to be numerically smaller than other Marine armies. The high-speed attacks/repositions they can pull off are not to be overlooked of course, but I always tend to find that more Power Armoured bodies are needed.

Scouts don't really fit in Mech lists imho.

 

4) Assault Marines. This is another unit that I like, and would love to field, but oh boy do they seem to have issues in the mechanised list. With Jump Packs they can be an easy target for enemy ordnance (even behind cover) as there is little/no other infantry out in the open on the battlefield. They can get free transports - ace! But they can't assault out of them, and lose the massive benefits of the extended assault range and "hopping over" that Jump Packs provide. They also are another anti-infantry squad, which is a role the Mechanised list has covered pretty well.

Mechanised lists only handle infantry well if they are built for it, see above. :D

Assault marines in Rhinos aren't such a bad idea, hell, if I played loyalists I'd include two ASM squads in Rhinos or two deepstriking ASM unit just for added support to the tacticals. Sure when they DS they spend a round standing still, but that's a highly mobile Powerfist + assault weapons that WILL reach the target in the turn after (with TP Homers you might even get shots off on juicy targets). It is also a decent way of adding men to a place that needs it (e.g. a place with high casualties).

 

5) Heavy Support. I have lumped this one all together. Devastators, lambasted by the internet I know, may actually have a place - as the rest of the army is riding in its "cover", you have ample places on the board to dig them in. The fact they can use ruins to improve the elevations of their shots, and not be silenced by a "glancing hit" from the enemy gives them a slight edge over the vehicles in my view. But then you are lacking on the armoured target front - which Predators can easily provide, although recently I have gone off them because they *need* to move to get clear LOS or decent shots, which severely cuts down on their firepower no matter the variant. Vindicators are the next obvious choice, everyone fears the pie-plate...but that's the issue. A single "Weapon Destroyed" result renders them impotent, and whilst it can be argued that the fact they draw enough fire for that to occur is a good thing, you have paid points for what is now mobile terrain - if it is not outright destroyed thanks to the poor side-armour - and it doesn't give the force the needed long-range goodness (plus killing hordes is not exactly an issue for a Mech list). Whirlwinds again are too focused on anti-infantry and do not bring the distraction role to the table as they tend to be hiding out of LOS anyway (not that they are bad, indeed Indirect Fire can be useful with the restricted LOS from having so many vehicles on the field). The Thunderfire can draw a fair amount of heat its way but it is too static to really work in such a fluid force, and Land Raiders are just too expensive.

The only Heavy Support that truly fit in a Mech list is one that is mobile. Anything stationary can be avoided (LoS), neutralised with Deepstrikers/Fast Outflankers/Fast Assault Elements/Long Range fire.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

 

 

PS. I'll gladly post up my latest Mech-List for you and explain why I am taking the various units and how the list works, even though it is Chaos Space Marines the same general principles apply.

[Gothical]

My thanks to everyone for the comments so far, they have been rather helpful. I hope you can bear with me through this latest set of questions/comments.

 

To be honest-

 

if you wanna play mech, go mech. Meaning, at 1500 points, 2x5 tactical marines and a HQ are the only bodies you fiel. Point.

 

Point with mech is target overload. That means you bring more mechanized units than your enemy can deal with. The more you put into bodies, the less mech units you get, the smaller the disbalance between enemies antitank and your mech units gets.

 

I'd disagree heavily - I think that Tactical Marines are excellent troops (probably comes from me playing Guard) and that only having 10 scoring infantry in 1500 points is a very bad idea, given how easy it is to remove each half-squad, because even if they are in Rhinos it is still only an AV11 box. My Tactical Squads of 10 men have been excellent at removing enemy infantry (I tend to field them with Flamer/MM/Rhino and either a Combi-Flamer or a Power Weapon depending on mood/support elements). It seems to me that as we have to take Tactical Squads for a legal army (Scouts not being a suitable choice in a Mech force) then we may as well make them competent in a certain role, which given the statline of the Marine/Bolter and the free gear, would be anti-infantry.

 

I use this list at 1500

 

Libby, TDA, SS, Nullzone, Vortex

Dread, TLAC, PC

Dread, TLAC, PC

5 Tacs, Razor with TLMM (IA2)

5 Tacs, Razor with TLMM (IA2)

2 LS, 2xTML, 1xMM, 1xHB

2 LS, 2xTML, 1xMM, 1xHB

TFC 100

TFC 100

LR, MM, Missile

 

Libby into the LR.

 

Anything in this List is juicy. Anything.

 

Apart from the lack of Troops, the Thunderfires seem like an odd inclusion - they will draw fire but are incredibly static and don't really fit with the Mech theme. Having a Land Raider with just the Librarian in it seems a little strange to me - why would you want the Librarian? Would not a Master of the Forge be a better deal to keep the Raider active for longer (the Librarian cannot act well on it's own, and if it strays from the Raider he's likely to die).

 

I do really like the TL-AC/PC Dreadnoughts however - they should be excellent in a balanced force, as they retain a number of shots to eliminate light vehicles whilst still posing a threat to tough infantry (and removing FNP from those Plague Marines/Dark Eldar squads).

 

It´s not that impossible that you have most times low armor values.. You should make use of your lists strengh, and that is range. Put the TFC, the dreads and (if possible) the razorbacks into 3+ cover (combat style 1 dread, 1 TFC, 1 razorback) on two different ruins. Deploy the Landspeeder behind cover on the flanks, Put the LR between the two bunkered combat configurations..

 

The LS work over cross to grap enemies vehicles side armor. 8 rockets a turn are nice. The MM on each pair are there to crack LR or such if needed, otherwise if the enemy advances with their vehicles you get another firepower boost. It´s important to keep things versatile- with the LS you can provide very decent anti tank (2xMM, 8 missiles) and decent anti horde (8 blasts, 4 heavy shots) as well. Unless needed, stay out of 24" towards the enemy. Many armies rely on close ranged weapons, distance is your friend.

 

TFC with 3+ cover save aren´t a thing to sniff at. And two of them really hurt hordes. Slow down footslogging heavy hitters, blast units out of cover. Nice. And if the TFC goes, you got a free techmarine worth 75 points to repair your vehicles/ hide in cover/ go into a razorback to deny points. Awesome!

 

Dreads are multi purpose. They are slightly worser than Rifleman dreads (1 strengh 7 shot less) but therefore you get an ap2 plate. Important to have, so you can deal with enemy termies or something comparable. Never let me down. Can take out light - medium tanks with ease and hurts marines very much.

 

5 tacs in razor.. Well, you must take these.. So nothing more to say.

 

Libby in LR. Tough vehicle, good range, soaks fire. Many people try to ignore them due to thei (relativly) low damage output. Ever seen an AV 14, 2+/3++ Nullzone denying the TH/SS termies their save, or the DE vehicle save, or the nob biker /etc save? Somehow, most people try to get rid of it as fast as possible, because their armies are based onto a few hard hitters that rely on such saves. As well, a LR always means a lot of points. If the LR blows up, the Libby is still very survivable. He can support with vortex, if needed or if nullzone doesn´t bring much for that special enemy, too.

 

It does bring a lot of firepower, but I am a little unsure of how a list similar to that would work given the lack of close-combat elements. Given the weak nature of individual squads it seems like a good idea to have a "beatstick" unit that you can throw in to tie up enemy assault troops and give the rest of the force more time to shoot.

 

At least, I never had a loss with this list. At the moment it is 21/1/0. The draw was against a footslogging guard army with tons of lascanonns, but the dude said that was his outdated, last edition army.

 

Against some opponets you will have an easy victory (mainly balanced lists in my opinion), against some it will be more difficult. You just need to get a feeling for target priority, shooting order and gain/loss decisions..

 

I am a little dubious of the track record of that army. It can put out a lot of firepower, or be very mobile - but not both at the same time. It also appears to have a distinct weakness to close-combat. If the enemy has better ranged-output than the force (say, lots of Autocannons) then the majority of the firepower can be removed relatively easily (Razorbacks, Thunderfire, Land Speeders) and if the enemy is mobile enough they can get up in the force's face and chew through units in short order (11 infantry and a couple of Artillery are easy to take out, even if the vehicles will give issues). Again, how does it manage to win objective-based games, particularly ones where you need to move to capture them? I can see it being an excellent defensive list, just not very mobile (which seems at odds with the idea of a mechanised force). If the 2x5-man Tactical Squads get taken out then you have to use that firepower to eliminate the enemy's force (or at least their troops) which could be rather problematic - LOS means you are likely to have to put the Dreads/Speeders within enemy range, and the Thunderfires have to move to get shots (which can put them out of the cover that protects them so well).

 

I thank your for the ideas - it's certainly a playstyle I hadn't considered and I am going to think about it, it just appears so frail and light on troops that it is disconcerting.

 

++++++++++

 

Now my list I'm thinking of using (once we get back to 1500pts, silly 1000pts tournament :P)

Libby: Null Zone Avenger

9 Sternguard w power fist, 4x combi-meltas, Rhino

Rifleman Dread

Rifleman Dread

10 Tactical Squad w flamer, combi-flamer, MM, Rhino

10 Tactical Squad w flamer, combi-flamer, MM, Rhino

5 Tactical Squad w Razorback w las plas turret

Vindicator w siege shield

Vindicator w siege shield

 

Hm, that list looks similar to some ideas I was considering.

 

I like the 25 Tactical set-up. I have been trying to shoe-horn in more than 2 squads (I feel 20 Tacs is fine in terms of scoring units, but for building a battle-plan I would prefer more). The 10-man squads are set up identically to ones I have been using lately (though sometimes I opt for a Power Weapon over the Combi-Flamer, in light of the fact my friends are looking at grabbing the Dark Eldar - T3 with good saves (Incubi) or Feel No Pain (Grotesques/their weird butcher-shop construction thingys) should mean the PW is actually effective.

 

Comes in at 1500pts. Now when I was planning this list Interrogator-Chaplain Adam, I was planing to maximise on the some of the key strengths that you yourself determined, close range shooting. So my mounted up squads are all shooting ones, as I have no intention to take Land Raiders so it's pointless if I have CC specialists. If my troops are in combat I'm going to want to break away. So my 3 Rhinos have full squads, one with Sternguard and Libby and the others with Tactical Squads. The MM means I can take and hold midfield, while the dual flamers mean I can put the hurt on enemy infantry. Meanwhile, the Sternguard spearhead into the unit killing anything in the way (and the can with the combi-meltas).

 

That is some impressive short-range firepower. It's a shame, but I don't think I can fit Sternguard into my lists - I'm a Terminator man (I feel the force needs a (counter-) assault element, and "Tactical Terminators" bring both more firepower and CC capabilities), and I can't quite squeeze a Master of the Forge into the army at this points level.

 

On the other side of the field my Rifleman Dreads and Razorback stick back and keep up long ranged fire, targeting vehicles mainly, while the Razorback squad can also take objectives. Finally, the Vindicators tend to sit between these lines, and more importantly act as a massive fire magnet.

 

Do you find the force performs adequately despite the lack of high-strength long-ranged firepower? TL-ACs are excellent transport poppers, but how does the force deal with heavier armour (Leman Russes, Land Raiders, etc.) as there's really only the Sternguard combi-meltas that can reliably knock them out? It's trying to fit some Missile Launchers/Lascannons that is making my army list difficult to work out, but if you are finding that such firepower is not really needed then I may have to re-think things.

 

How are the Vindicators faring? I had gone off them recently - the single Weapon Destroyed result that kept cropping up and basically rendering it useless (it's no longer a threat thus not drawing firepower either). Two, between the wedge formation, is actually a brilliant deployment and must force some difficult decisions on your opponent regarding target priority.

 

In the end, it comes down to what you want. If you want to focus on shooting, then I'd say leave CC to a minimum. Unless you want to use 5 man squads in Razorbacks only use 1 elite unit as a line breaker. And use heavy support to find something threatening, whether its a Vindicator, or a Pred, your enemy is bound to shoot at it. Good luck.

 

In many of my armies I've opted for 2-3 Rhinos, 2-3 Razorbacks and a couple of Dreadnoughts, and I have found I need a little extra tougher armour to help make the lighter stuff live. Since I am on the fence about Vindicators, do you think that Predators present themselves as enough of a threat to actually draw enemy anti-tank firepower?

 

++++++++++

 

Hence the need to saturate the board with high-threat targets, given enough targets he wont be able to stop them all.

 

Yes, that is the part that I am struggling with. It seems to me that I can fit in the "high-threat targets", but then my short-ranged capabilities are lacking (I have to drop things like Sternguard/Command Squads loaded to the teeth with Special Weaponry for armoured units) - if I improve the short-range stuff (such as Sternguard/Command Squads/Terminators) then I am lacking in other armour to draw firepower away from the Rhinos/Razorbacks that make up the bulk of my force (and deliver those short-ranged units into effective range).

 

I think your biggest problem is the way your perceive Mech-lists to be. From what I can see you tend to mix Armored-lists with Mech. Mech is simply a list where ALL troops (or the vast majority) are in transports to take advantage of the enhanced mobility and protection that they offer to infantry. Neither Dreadnoughts or Predators are an obvious choice for Mech-lists, that is not to say they cannot work but given their nature - as you yourself said, they aren't first choices because they do not compliment true Mech very well.

 

Huh. I quite possibly am.

 

I recognise the difference between Armoured and Mech, however it seems the two fit together rather nicely - I had been advised many times that in order to make a Mech list work, you need Armour to help draw firepower away from the more vulnerable units (such as Predators/Vindicators; and that you need counter-charge capability (such as Dreadnoughts or Terminators in Land Raiders).

 

Is this wrong? Can a Mech list make it with purely Transports? If not, what sort/amount of armour would you recommend to supplement the force?

 

Thing is, aren't Sternguard a better, not to mention cheaper way of dealing with MC's? and aren't Attack Bikes and Landspeeders better and cheaper at dealing with tanks?

Personally speaking I wouldn't use a Command Squad (not that CSM get the option any more but even if I did play Loyalists I wouldn't take them), I'd take an IC and attach him to something else.

 

I am considering knocking them out of my list-building plans - the main issue is that I can't really fit Sternguard into the army, so the easiest way to mass Special Weapons is that Command Squad, and the fact they can be potent enough in combat (odd Power Fist/Weapon and IC) also helps the force out - albeit at a large cost.

 

Bingo, I'd take a 5 man (or maybe even two) 5 man Terminator squads instead and load them up with Anti-tank (Cyclone).

 

*

 

Same here, a big fan, and for that reason I'm also using a squad in my 1500 pt list. The thing to keep in mind is that once they're down, they don't get to 'cross the board' in the same way as a Raider Rush list would let them. This is perfectly fine if you're lucky with the DS (I use Icons, but I guess TP Homers are a good choice as well) but if you deviate too much, it means an entire turn (in the latter stages of the game) wasted as targets and objectives might be out of range. Not a big issue, but something to keep in mind nevertheless. In short, plan 3 Turns ahead (from Turn 2 and onward of course) when you deploy them.

 

From reading a lot of threads on the matter, I think Terminators may become a staple in my army list. A squad of 5 should suffice at 1500 I think (as otherwise it gets expensive fast).

 

Scouts don't really fit in Mech lists imho.

 

Didn't think they would - I was just thinking about the Land Speeder Storm and some potential uses there. Tactical Marines it is.

 

Mechanised lists only handle infantry well if they are built for it, see above. ;)

 

Assault marines in Rhinos aren't such a bad idea, hell, if I played loyalists I'd include two ASM squads in Rhinos or two deepstriking ASM unit just for added support to the tacticals. Sure when they DS they spend a round standing still, but that's a highly mobile Powerfist + assault weapons that WILL reach the target in the turn after (with TP Homers you might even get shots off on juicy targets). It is also a decent way of adding men to a place that needs it (e.g. a place with high casualties).

 

Hmm, I am definitely going to consider them then. If I were to take a single squad, would you recommend Jump Packs or a Rhino? Each has its own benefits and drawbacks (Jump Packs add great manoeuvrability and Deepstrike option but leave them vulnerable; Rhino would give more armour on the field but is no longer such a CC thread).

 

PS. I'll gladly post up my latest Mech-List for you and explain why I am taking the various units and how the list works, even though it is Chaos Space Marines the same general principles apply.

 

I'd love that, actually. I used to play Chaos a long time ago (when I started when 3rd Edition was released...) and I've kept up with the codexes and stuff so I should have an idea of what you are on about - and the principles are indeed similar, even if the units are somewhat different.

 

++++++++++

 

As I said at the start, thank you everyone for your contributions. They have been really helpful towards getting my thoughts in order and establishing what a Mech list should look like and varied approaches (offensive/defensive type lists). Many thanks to all of you.

[DarkGuard]

Hm, that list looks similar to some ideas I was considering.

 

I like the 25 Tactical set-up. I have been trying to shoe-horn in more than 2 squads (I feel 20 Tacs is fine in terms of scoring units, but for building a battle-plan I would prefer more). The 10-man squads are set up identically to ones I have been using lately (though sometimes I opt for a Power Weapon over the Combi-Flamer, in light of the fact my friends are looking at grabbing the Dark Eldar - T3 with good saves (Incubi) or Feel No Pain (Grotesques/their weird butcher-shop construction thingys) should mean the PW is actually effective.

 

I would tend to agree with you that 20 tactical marines are fine for scoring units, but for some reason I don't feel comfortable only taking two 10 man midfield Rhino squads. What if I roll multiple objectives, or the base objectives? I've then got to keep one of my midfield units back away from the front line, or can only hold two objectives. OK, I only need one objective, but I'd prefer to have a smaller unit that is designed to sit on that objectives, so I'm not wasting the potential of my bigger units. That unit can still contribute with its longer ranged weaponry, but isn't as expensive. I sometimes use scout snipers, cheaper, but I can't get as much saturation onto the board, so if I can afford it I will use combat squad with a razorback.

 

That is some impressive short-range firepower. It's a shame, but I don't think I can fit Sternguard into my lists - I'm a Terminator man (I feel the force needs a (counter-) assault element, and "Tactical Terminators" bring both more firepower and CC capabilities), and I can't quite squeeze a Master of the Forge into the army at this points level.

 

Thank you, I try my hardest to please ;). Seriously though its a bit of a glass cannon. That firepower is in AV11 Rhinos, and all the Marines are only T4 Sv3+. If my enemy wants to they can and will crack them open and pour fire onto that unit. But then that's why I have the Dreads, Vindys, and large amount of mounted to squad, to punish him if ignored one of my other threats.

 

And fair enough with the Terminators, if you want to take them and can make them work in the list then go for it. I'd imagine they'd start in reserve, because otherwise every anti-infantry weapon on the table is going to be pointed on them. It would increase the cost of your Tacticals if you wanted to give them teleport homers to ensure your Termys land safely. As far as I'm concerned, I want to focus on mobility and firepower, so I tend to ignore combat, and don't include those units for combat, but my Sternguard can do combat, not as well as Termys, but they can do it all right. However, my philosophy is trying to wipe out threats in one turn of shooting, before combat, but I've had little luck with that recently :P.

 

Do you find the force performs adequately despite the lack of high-strength long-ranged firepower? TL-ACs are excellent transport poppers, but how does the force deal with heavier armour (Leman Russes, Land Raiders, etc.) as there's really only the Sternguard combi-meltas that can reliably knock them out? It's trying to fit some Missile Launchers/Lascannons that is making my army list difficult to work out, but if you are finding that such firepower is not really needed then I may have to re-think things.

 

How are the Vindicators faring? I had gone off them recently - the single Weapon Destroyed result that kept cropping up and basically rendering it useless (it's no longer a threat thus not drawing firepower either). Two, between the wedge formation, is actually a brilliant deployment and must force some difficult decisions on your opponent regarding target priority.

 

I find the force performs all right at the moment, despite the lack of lots of melta. Fortunately, the most recent games I've had haven't had lots of Land Raiders or anything, in fact none. Today I had little trouble in popping two Fire Prisms and a Wave Serpent, my rifleman got one Prism and the Serpent, and the combi-meltas got the other thing. And don't forget that I do have two multi-meltas in the Tactical squad, that if the Land Raider goes within 12" (and if it hasn't my opponent isn't playing it properly), so can be popped. And don't forget that Vindicators, if they hit their target are S10 with 2D6" pick the highest pen, so I don't have lots of melta, but I can scrape by.

 

However, this is the question I'm not sure about. I've considered switching one of my big Tactical squads to combi-melta and meltagun, but at the moment I'd prefer to keep them suited to anti-infantry and midfield holding. I may pop in a couple of melta attack bikes, although to do so I'd possibly have to drop my only power fist, and revert the razorback squad to a scout squad, unless I find I can get away with only 20 scoring models overall. But, my melta bikes have been awful the last few times I've used them, hence why I don't use them anymore. Fortunately, my LGS has gone more xenos now, and the one guy who ran at least two Land Raiders is now Eldar, so I should get by for a while, but I'm ready to change when I need to. I think this is down to LGS more than anything IMO.

 

As for the Vindicators, I'm actually sad that I struggle to justify using them in 1000pts. I can see why you'd not bother with them, I used to despise them, but used them because I paid for them. They never hit, always died quickly, and were awful. However, now they do better, hitting more and doing more damage, especially with my Libby with Null Zone nearby. And also, they do their primary job well, or redirecting fire from my Rhinos, keeping their squads safe. However, I don't use them at 1000pts at the moment because I want some long-ranged anti-tank, so the rifleman get a nod, but there a couple of times when they might come out. Sure they can be neutralised easily, but I'd say persevere with them, because when they hit something they make a mess, and that scares your opponent into shooting them.

 

In many of my armies I've opted for 2-3 Rhinos, 2-3 Razorbacks and a couple of Dreadnoughts, and I have found I need a little extra tougher armour to help make the lighter stuff live. Since I am on the fence about Vindicators, do you think that Predators present themselves as enough of a threat to actually draw enemy anti-tank firepower?

 

I can see what you mean. I tend to find my army 'naked' at times when I'm not using Vindicators, as though my opponent can destroy it easily if you get what I mean. If I use Vindicators my other squads tend to last longer, provided the Vindicators. I'm not sure about the Preds though if I'm being honest. It depends how you equip them. If you load them as combi-preds and use them instead of Dreads then perhaps. Certainly though Vindys and Land Raiders (especially the assault variants) are a bigger threat. Perhaps try both and see what works better? Though IMO Vindys are better for drawing fire.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Asking out of interest, how many rhinos (and other such vehicles) do you reckon you could open up per turn? Based on what you have an assuming that the enemy does have other things such as dreadnoughts on the table.

 

I ask because i often hear players saying that they can reliably expect to crunch numerous transports in the opening turn and if so, how, and why bother even running a rhino in the first place!?

[DarkGuard]

Asking out of interest, how many rhinos (and other such vehicles) do you reckon you could open up per turn? Based on what you have an assuming that the enemy does have other things such as dreadnoughts on the table.

 

I ask because i often hear players saying that they can reliably expect to crunch numerous transports in the opening turn and if so, how, and why bother even running a rhino in the first place!?

 

With my list I'd expect to open up 2 Rhinos in the first turn, with a possible 3rd if I go first. If I go second and still have everything alive I'd say between 2-6, depending on if I get my melta Sternguard out, whether the Vindys hit, whether the las hits, and whether I fluff up the vehicle damage table. However, I expect a couple of drop under my rifleman dreads.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Ya see with a loss of potentially 6 rhinos within the opening turns, it almost seems as if theres little point meching up beyond initial moves. Almost as if the rhino may just get you somewhere before its blown to smithereens. Your list is very nice in that retaliatory fire will never severe a key element that can stop the threat to any light armour. If you get rid of the vindicators you suffer the riflemen and vice versa.

 

How many transports do you lose though, more or less than your opponent and what draws your fire with your anti-armour? Transports or threats to your armour? (I admit this is a little situational im asking about your personal opinions)

[DarkGuard]

Ya see with a loss of potentially 6 rhinos within the opening turns, it almost seems as if theres little point meching up beyond initial moves. Almost as if the rhino may just get you somewhere before its blown to smithereens. Your list is very nice in that retaliatory fire will never severe a key element that can stop the threat to any light armour. If you get rid of the vindicators you suffer the riflemen and vice versa.

 

How many transports do you lose though, more or less than your opponent and what draws your fire with your anti-armour? Transports or threats to your armour? (I admit this is a little situational im asking about your personal opinions)

 

Well that loss of 6 is me being lucky, and my opponent going first and being unlucky, with all his smoke launchers not working and his armour melting. Plus, to be perfectly honest, those Vindicators will fire on the bunched up units that the Rifleman destroy, so it's more like 2-4 transports gone and the contents, hopefully, slaughtered.

 

On the other hand I'd tend to loose only a couple of transports, but it is situational, and depends on a lot of things, including, of course luck. In my first match I lost (in 1000pts), 2 transports, and my rifleman, leaving me with a rhino, and a grand total of 8 tactical marines, spread between two squads, and only managed to scrape a win. But in the next game I didn't loose a single transport and took out my opponent's tank, as he was rather unlucky with shots missing or low penetration rolls or low vehicle damage rolls. However, on average, what with every else concentrating on rifleman dreads/typhoons and vindicators, I tend to only loose one or two transports per game, and that's not much of a hindrance to me if they've got my troops half way across the board. Also, if they ignore everything else in the army.....

 

And that's the thing about mech armies, as someone else has said already. You have to maximise and present multiple threats, preferably threats that can't be hurt by anti-infantry firepower as well as they're tanks or mounted. Realistically, even if your opponent could take out every tank in one turn, its unlikely unless he's very lucky, and if he ignored my Vindys to try and dismount my Sternguard, he pays by getting hit by the Demolisher cannon. If he goes for the Vindy, the Sternguard jump out and take him apart. To get mech to work you need to present threats to force your opponent to make decisions, throw enough decisions at him and he'll make mistakes. But, as with all things, you also need to get the list to play the way you play.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I think i get disillusioned somewhat. I want everything mobile, but I want numbers and i want threats, but between all that, getting a synergy, aiming to combat all armies and getting a variety of ranges and saturating the board with enough things nothing ever quite sits right with me. At least not on paper anyway, maybe a few more games under my belt would give me some confidence in things.

 

I think though that meching up does give you a nice shell that if survives provides a decent home for your unit.

[Mysticaria]

And that's the thing about mech armies, as someone else has said already. You have to maximise and present multiple threats, preferably threats that can't be hurt by anti-infantry firepower as well as they're tanks or mounted. Realistically, even if your opponent could take out every tank in one turn, its unlikely unless he's very lucky, and if he ignored my Vindys to try and dismount my Sternguard, he pays by getting hit by the Demolisher cannon. If he goes for the Vindy, the Sternguard jump out and take him apart. To get mech to work you need to present threats to force your opponent to make decisions, throw enough decisions at him and he'll make mistakes.

 

This is the key... putting out other similar threats that compete for your opponants anti-tank fire. Landspeeders, Dreds, Vindicators, Preds... all those will help a rhino live longer. I used to struggle in game with 30 marines in 3 rhinos, but then I added a pair of vindicators and sure enough I do fine with 20 marines in 2 rhinos...even up to 2,000 points in a GT that was more than enough. Just because there were other threats on the board to draw fire.

 

-Myst

[minigun762]

I think i get disillusioned somewhat. I want everything mobile, but I want numbers and i want threats, but between all that, getting a synergy, aiming to combat all armies and getting a variety of ranges and saturating the board with enough things nothing ever quite sits right with me. At least not on paper anyway, maybe a few more games under my belt would give me some confidence in things.

 

It is alot to fit into a good list, so don't feel bad about it being difficult because it is.

 

I personally try to take flexible, jack of all trade units to help check off all the important aspects I need. For me that means CSMs with 2x special weapons and a Power Fist in a Rhino. This means that I don't rely on any kind of "deathstar" unit and instead build my army around multiple strong units.

 

If I was to try and do the same thing with Loyalists, I'd look at what units are cheap, flexible and all have the same rough durability. The things that instantly come to mind are Typhoon Speeders, Rifleman Dreads, Vindicators, Combi-Predators and Rhino mounted Tacs and Sternguard squads. Most of these units are less then 150 points, have multiple weapons or weapons that are effective against a variety of targets and don't have to worry too much about small arms fire. In addition, many of thse units also have long range which is a bonus.

[DarkGuard]

I think i get disillusioned somewhat. I want everything mobile, but I want numbers and i want threats, but between all that, getting a synergy, aiming to combat all armies and getting a variety of ranges and saturating the board with enough things nothing ever quite sits right with me. At least not on paper anyway, maybe a few more games under my belt would give me some confidence in things.

 

I think though that meching up does give you a nice shell that if survives provides a decent home for your unit.

 

I think I understand where you're coming from here. The fact that everything is mobile leads to you spending less points on bodies, and in some mech armies it might not be uncommon to see less than 20 marines. In mine I have 35, which I consider is quite high, but you can get higher in an army.

 

I managed to have a decent semi-mobile half company force, with 50 marines and 4 transports. I had mobility in the two Rhino Tactical squads and the Assault squad, which along with the Captain gave combat support. Fire support came from the unmounted Tactical squad and the Dev squad plus their Razorbacks, and anti-tank from the melta bikes. Now, if you look at my army, its an evolution of that list. The Dev squad was awful with DoW, so I wanted some more mobile long-range firepower, enter Vindicators, and to an extent Rifleman dreads. I didn't want so many points on a unit sitting in the open, so I reduced its numbers and stuck them in the Razorback. My melta bikes and Assault marines were often ineffective, so I combined the roles to the Sternguard squad, who can do better shooting out of a Rhino, and have the same amount of attacks. I heard the Libby was good, tried him, and now he's my standard HQ choice and hated at my LGS, plus he frees up more points.

 

Note that that is just a comparison of old and new, there's been many stages in between, but I feel I've still managed to maintain numbers, while opening mobility and survivability, maximising on shooting while also doing all right on combat, and being able to combat most armies (I still dread multi Land Raider lists).

[Gothical]

I would tend to agree with you that 20 tactical marines are fine for scoring units, but for some reason I don't feel comfortable only taking two 10 man midfield Rhino squads. What if I roll multiple objectives, or the base objectives? I've then got to keep one of my midfield units back away from the front line, or can only hold two objectives. OK, I only need one objective, but I'd prefer to have a smaller unit that is designed to sit on that objectives, so I'm not wasting the potential of my bigger units. That unit can still contribute with its longer ranged weaponry, but isn't as expensive. I sometimes use scout snipers, cheaper, but I can't get as much saturation onto the board, so if I can afford it I will use combat squad with a razorback.

 

Yeah, I think I'm going to opt for the smaller Tactical Squad. How should the "combat squad" be equipped? I'm guessing some sort of long-ranged weapon on the Razorback (for those times it has to hang back to hold objectives), but should you give the Sergeant any gear? Combi-weapons can add to the defensive nature of the squad, and likewise Close-Combat upgrades could help the squad to stay on that key objective.

 

Points may be getting tight to squeeze in my Command Squad, so do you think it's a good idea to have the Commander (whoever he may be) riding with this small squad? Should make it much tougher to shift if it is on the defensive, and give it a bit of extra oomph on the offensive.

 

Thank you, I try my hardest to please :tu:. Seriously though its a bit of a glass cannon. That firepower is in AV11 Rhinos, and all the Marines are only T4 Sv3+. If my enemy wants to they can and will crack them open and pour fire onto that unit. But then that's why I have the Dreads, Vindys, and large amount of mounted to squad, to punish him if ignored one of my other threats.

 

At the moment, the force is looking at shaping up as 2 Rhinos (Tac Squads), 2 Razorbacks (Tac/Command), a 3rd Rhino (Devastators or Assault Marines, haven't decided yet) then 2 Dreadnoughts and either a Predator or a Land Speeder to round things out (dependant on how I gear the Terminators of course) - do you think that is sufficient saturation? 7-8 Vehicles with a fair number of infantry in them.

 

And fair enough with the Terminators, if you want to take them and can make them work in the list then go for it. I'd imagine they'd start in reserve, because otherwise every anti-infantry weapon on the table is going to be pointed on them. It would increase the cost of your Tacticals if you wanted to give them teleport homers to ensure your Termys land safely. As far as I'm concerned, I want to focus on mobility and firepower, so I tend to ignore combat, and don't include those units for combat, but my Sternguard can do combat, not as well as Termys, but they can do it all right. However, my philosophy is trying to wipe out threats in one turn of shooting, before combat, but I've had little luck with that recently :D.

 

Oh yes, they'd be in reserve. My thinking is that they can be held back and deployed to hit either enemies approaching an objective, or to back-up the advancing squads - or be thrown down somewhere else to force my opponent to think heavily about which section of the force to shoot at. I have heard from several other posters that they complement a mechanised force very nicely, as they bring mobile firepower and a decent close-combat hit, with a deployment method that gives them both freedom to affect anywhere in the battle as well as instant effect when they arrive.

 

I find the force performs all right at the moment, despite the lack of lots of melta. Fortunately, the most recent games I've had haven't had lots of Land Raiders or anything, in fact none. Today I had little trouble in popping two Fire Prisms and a Wave Serpent, my rifleman got one Prism and the Serpent, and the combi-meltas got the other thing. And don't forget that I do have two multi-meltas in the Tactical squad, that if the Land Raider goes within 12" (and if it hasn't my opponent isn't playing it properly), so can be popped. And don't forget that Vindicators, if they hit their target are S10 with 2D6" pick the highest pen, so I don't have lots of melta, but I can scrape by.

 

However, this is the question I'm not sure about. I've considered switching one of my big Tactical squads to combi-melta and meltagun, but at the moment I'd prefer to keep them suited to anti-infantry and midfield holding. I may pop in a couple of melta attack bikes, although to do so I'd possibly have to drop my only power fist, and revert the razorback squad to a scout squad, unless I find I can get away with only 20 scoring models overall. But, my melta bikes have been awful the last few times I've used them, hence why I don't use them anymore. Fortunately, my LGS has gone more xenos now, and the one guy who ran at least two Land Raiders is now Eldar, so I should get by for a while, but I'm ready to change when I need to. I think this is down to LGS more than anything IMO.

 

As for the Vindicators, I'm actually sad that I struggle to justify using them in 1000pts. I can see why you'd not bother with them, I used to despise them, but used them because I paid for them. They never hit, always died quickly, and were awful. However, now they do better, hitting more and doing more damage, especially with my Libby with Null Zone nearby. And also, they do their primary job well, or redirecting fire from my Rhinos, keeping their squads safe. However, I don't use them at 1000pts at the moment because I want some long-ranged anti-tank, so the rifleman get a nod, but there a couple of times when they might come out. Sure they can be neutralised easily, but I'd say persevere with them, because when they hit something they make a mess, and that scares your opponent into shooting them.

 

Hm, I suppose it is worth bearing in mind that Vindicators can double as anti-tank. I don't know why this slipped my mind, I do it with my Guard all the time.

 

My local gaming area goes in shifts - sometimes there's a lot of Marines (with a mix of Mech/Pod/Foot) but other times they are hardly seen and it's all T3 armies everywhere. It helps with building a "balanced" list, but it does make it a bit of a pig to work out if the list is actually going to be effective enough.

 

I can see what you mean. I tend to find my army 'naked' at times when I'm not using Vindicators, as though my opponent can destroy it easily if you get what I mean. If I use Vindicators my other squads tend to last longer, provided the Vindicators. I'm not sure about the Preds though if I'm being honest. It depends how you equip them. If you load them as combi-preds and use them instead of Dreads then perhaps. Certainly though Vindys and Land Raiders (especially the assault variants) are a bigger threat. Perhaps try both and see what works better? Though IMO Vindys are better for drawing fire.

 

You might be winning me around - the trouble is points cost (as it always seems to be with me. I can come up with great combo's, only to discover I'm a few hundred points over the limit and have to start again).

 

Thanks for expanding on your previous comments, again it has been extremely helpful and given me a couple of ideas.

[Warprat]

I don't have too much to contribute, since I don't run a mech list. But I read something interesting on another forum... The question was if the 5 man squad (not a combat squad) + Razorback was worth it.

 

Most people responded that the Rhino + Tactical squad is superior. However, a Veteran player pointed out that with the points saved not buying the full Tac squad, he could take a multi melta/hvy flamer speeder. Giving him twice the number of vehicles (and vehicle targets) more mobility and more heavy weapons.

 

Rhino (storm bolter)+ 10 Tacs (multi-melta, plasma gun) = Razorback (las cannon, TL plasma)+ 5 Tacs + LS (muti-melta, hvy flamer).

 

He pointed out that neither one was better than the other. It just depended on the list. He ran a mech list, and wanted to increase the number of vehicles (and therefore targets.) I asked if he could remain mobility with the more static nature of Razorbacks, and he resonded that he used them in a mobile fashion and moved them quite often.

 

 

But what I wonder, is why you have ruled out Scouts? I could see a cheap unit of them being quite useful for the points. What is more mobile than a land speeder Storm? They could be good to prevent other units from scouting your flank, if nothing else. And a 5 man squad can take a missile launcher. Something 5 Tacticals cannot.

 

Love that you are standing by your Tactical Terminators. They are a favorite of mine and do well for me every game.

 

Warprat ;)

[DarkGuard]

Yeah, I think I'm going to opt for the smaller Tactical Squad. How should the "combat squad" be equipped? I'm guessing some sort of long-ranged weapon on the Razorback (for those times it has to hang back to hold objectives), but should you give the Sergeant any gear? Combi-weapons can add to the defensive nature of the squad, and likewise Close-Combat upgrades could help the squad to stay on that key objective.

 

Points may be getting tight to squeeze in my Command Squad, so do you think it's a good idea to have the Commander (whoever he may be) riding with this small squad? Should make it much tougher to shift if it is on the defensive, and give it a bit of extra oomph on the offensive.

 

I normally run my combat squad as normal, as I don't have the points left for a combi. That being said, if you have points left over, getting them a combi-flamer would be handy, as realistically they're going to be defending the objective from infantry, and so the flamer complements that role nicely. However, regardless you want to keep them in the Razorback, where they're safe from enemy fire, and count on your more forward units on taking the shots instead of them. This works best with a bare bones Razorback, as the enemy thinks its just a heavy bolter, and you've also spent less points on a unit not contributing much to the list rather than objective holding. However, the TL-las or las plas turret might be worth looking to if you're missing out on ranged anti-tank and have the points, I'd recommend the las plas one, as they seem to be getting rave reviews at the moment, and I can't wait to use my own one.

 

As for your Commander, I wouldn't put him in that squad, as it's role is to hang back. If you have the points to spare, I found a relic blade and hellfire round bolter complemented by plasma Command squad nicely as they would inevitably end up in combat. But it comes down to how your Command Squad is being made up. Of course, if its getting hard to squeeze them in and use the points for something else....

 

At the moment, the force is looking at shaping up as 2 Rhinos (Tac Squads), 2 Razorbacks (Tac/Command), a 3rd Rhino (Devastators or Assault Marines, haven't decided yet) then 2 Dreadnoughts and either a Predator or a Land Speeder to round things out (dependant on how I gear the Terminators of course) - do you think that is sufficient saturation? 7-8 Vehicles with a fair number of infantry in them.

 

First question is are there fluff reasons? I ask because if there isn't, I would personally drop either the 3rd Rhino or the Command squad. The Command squad because as you've stated you're having problems getting them in. Or the third Rhino because I'm still not convinced about putting Devs or an Assault squad in them. Assault squads aren't too good in combat, even if you are protecting them, and you can only fire 2 heavy weapons from the top hatch while Devs can carry 4....

 

I'd imagine it would be a better use of points to spend the points upgrading your Commander and Command squad. For example, if you're going with flamer/combi-flamer in the Tactical squads, then a quad-plasma gun Command squad would complement them nicely, letting them deal with the elite stuff. Or perhaps quad-melta if you're short on melta. How are the other vehicles equipped? And how many Terminators? I used to use a squad of 5 because I believe that's how they should work, unfortunately they didn't work nearly as well as my brother's squad of 10.

 

I do think you should drop that third Rhino squad, and use the points for upgrades, and perhaps another Predator and Land Speeder (I'm guessing they're MM/HF). If you managed to do so (you should have the points for the extra two tanks), then you've boosted your amount of vehicles by one. But its your list, and if the Assault squad or the Devs have worked, then go for them.

 

Oh yes, they'd be in reserve. My thinking is that they can be held back and deployed to hit either enemies approaching an objective, or to back-up the advancing squads - or be thrown down somewhere else to force my opponent to think heavily about which section of the force to shoot at. I have heard from several other posters that they complement a mechanised force very nicely, as they bring mobile firepower and a decent close-combat hit, with a deployment method that gives them both freedom to affect anywhere in the battle as well as instant effect when they arrive.

 

Yes I heard the same. Unfortunately me squad didn't have the impact I wanted, although I do love the models. I imagine I perhaps needed more of them, or more time with them, but in the end my plasma Command squad worked OK. I hope they work well for you, it sounds like you've got more experience with them than me.

 

Hm, I suppose it is worth bearing in mind that Vindicators can double as anti-tank. I don't know why this slipped my mind, I do it with my Guard all the time.

 

My local gaming area goes in shifts - sometimes there's a lot of Marines (with a mix of Mech/Pod/Foot) but other times they are hardly seen and it's all T3 armies everywhere. It helps with building a "balanced" list, but it does make it a bit of a pig to work out if the list is actually going to be effective enough.

 

I seem to have that problem down at my LGS. For a while it was all Marines, when the Space Wolves and the Blood Angels came out. Now that they've brought Dark Eldar out a lot of people are playing xenos, and with the Vets and Warlords combined a lot of Nid armies are coming to the table. I'm not complaining too much, means I don't need to pack lots of melta for the double Land Raider list my friend used to field, after all rifleman dreads can crash grav tanks :cuss. Certainly it is better for making an all-comers list, though an all-comers list is tailored towards your LGS.

 

 

You might be winning me around - the trouble is points cost (as it always seems to be with me. I can come up with great combo's, only to discover I'm a few hundred points over the limit and have to start again).

 

Thanks for expanding on your previous comments, again it has been extremely helpful and given me a couple of ideas.

 

In the end its all trial and error, finding the best thing that works for you. Be prepared to lose or draw the first few games, but after a couple of adjustments, after finding out how many tanks your opponent can reliably take out, then things should be fine.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

If I was to try and do the same thing with Loyalists, I'd look at what units are cheap, flexible and all have the same rough durability

See i think that is the way to go, multiple cheap units to create saturation, no relience on any particular unit for the job.

 

Note that that is just a comparison of old and new, there's been many stages in between, but I feel I've still managed to maintain numbers, while opening mobility and survivability, maximising on shooting while also doing all right on combat, and being able to combat most armies (I still dread multi Land Raider lists).

I found this interesting, the sort of evolution from the base half company list and for valid reasons. I'd quite like a list that can turn its hand to anything, able to fight any of the 40k armies...maybe it'll be hard to make a list that does well against every army, but hopefully with a big enough array it could work. I guess i'm just going to have to find a way to evolve my list into something I want

 

 

I also worried that less than 40 models on the field was too few, but I think you've convinced me fewer is still ok.

 

Thanks for those comments. As for the OP I would be cautious with small tactical squads, they're fragile and i wouldn't rely on them to do anything. 5 men are ok to stick on an objective, but i don't think i could ever depend on them to hold it from an attempt to dislodge them

[norngahl]

My thanks to everyone for the comments so far, they have been rather helpful. I hope you can bear with me through this latest set of questions/comments.

 

To be honest-

 

if you wanna play mech, go mech. Meaning, at 1500 points, 2x5 tactical marines and a HQ are the only bodies you fiel. Point.

 

Point with mech is target overload. That means you bring more mechanized units than your enemy can deal with. The more you put into bodies, the less mech units you get, the smaller the disbalance between enemies antitank and your mech units gets.

 

I'd disagree heavily - I think that Tactical Marines are excellent troops (probably comes from me playing Guard) and that only having 10 scoring infantry in 1500 points is a very bad idea, given how easy it is to remove each half-squad, because even if they are in Rhinos it is still only an AV11 box. My Tactical Squads of 10 men have been excellent at removing enemy infantry (I tend to field them with Flamer/MM/Rhino and either a Combi-Flamer or a Power Weapon depending on mood/support elements). It seems to me that as we have to take Tactical Squads for a legal army (Scouts not being a suitable choice in a Mech force) then we may as well make them competent in a certain role, which given the statline of the Marine/Bolter and the free gear, would be anti-infantry.

 

I use this list at 1500

 

Libby, TDA, SS, Nullzone, Vortex

Dread, TLAC, PC

Dread, TLAC, PC

5 Tacs, Razor with TLMM (IA2)

5 Tacs, Razor with TLMM (IA2)

2 LS, 2xTML, 1xMM, 1xHB

2 LS, 2xTML, 1xMM, 1xHB

TFC 100

TFC 100

LR, MM, Missile

 

Libby into the LR.

 

Anything in this List is juicy. Anything.

 

Apart from the lack of Troops, the Thunderfires seem like an odd inclusion - they will draw fire but are incredibly static and don't really fit with the Mech theme. Having a Land Raider with just the Librarian in it seems a little strange to me - why would you want the Librarian? Would not a Master of the Forge be a better deal to keep the Raider active for longer (the Librarian cannot act well on it's own, and if it strays from the Raider he's likely to die).

 

I do really like the TL-AC/PC Dreadnoughts however - they should be excellent in a balanced force, as they retain a number of shots to eliminate light vehicles whilst still posing a threat to tough infantry (and removing FNP from those Plague Marines/Dark Eldar squads).

 

It´s not that impossible that you have most times low armor values.. You should make use of your lists strengh, and that is range. Put the TFC, the dreads and (if possible) the razorbacks into 3+ cover (combat style 1 dread, 1 TFC, 1 razorback) on two different ruins. Deploy the Landspeeder behind cover on the flanks, Put the LR between the two bunkered combat configurations..

 

The LS work over cross to grap enemies vehicles side armor. 8 rockets a turn are nice. The MM on each pair are there to crack LR or such if needed, otherwise if the enemy advances with their vehicles you get another firepower boost. It´s important to keep things versatile- with the LS you can provide very decent anti tank (2xMM, 8 missiles) and decent anti horde (8 blasts, 4 heavy shots) as well. Unless needed, stay out of 24" towards the enemy. Many armies rely on close ranged weapons, distance is your friend.

 

TFC with 3+ cover save aren´t a thing to sniff at. And two of them really hurt hordes. Slow down footslogging heavy hitters, blast units out of cover. Nice. And if the TFC goes, you got a free techmarine worth 75 points to repair your vehicles/ hide in cover/ go into a razorback to deny points. Awesome!

 

Dreads are multi purpose. They are slightly worser than Rifleman dreads (1 strengh 7 shot less) but therefore you get an ap2 plate. Important to have, so you can deal with enemy termies or something comparable. Never let me down. Can take out light - medium tanks with ease and hurts marines very much.

 

5 tacs in razor.. Well, you must take these.. So nothing more to say.

 

Libby in LR. Tough vehicle, good range, soaks fire. Many people try to ignore them due to thei (relativly) low damage output. Ever seen an AV 14, 2+/3++ Nullzone denying the TH/SS termies their save, or the DE vehicle save, or the nob biker /etc save? Somehow, most people try to get rid of it as fast as possible, because their armies are based onto a few hard hitters that rely on such saves. As well, a LR always means a lot of points. If the LR blows up, the Libby is still very survivable. He can support with vortex, if needed or if nullzone doesn´t bring much for that special enemy, too.

 

It does bring a lot of firepower, but I am a little unsure of how a list similar to that would work given the lack of close-combat elements. Given the weak nature of individual squads it seems like a good idea to have a "beatstick" unit that you can throw in to tie up enemy assault troops and give the rest of the force more time to shoot.

 

At least, I never had a loss with this list. At the moment it is 21/1/0. The draw was against a footslogging guard army with tons of lascanonns, but the dude said that was his outdated, last edition army.

 

Against some opponets you will have an easy victory (mainly balanced lists in my opinion), against some it will be more difficult. You just need to get a feeling for target priority, shooting order and gain/loss decisions..

 

I am a little dubious of the track record of that army. It can put out a lot of firepower, or be very mobile - but not both at the same time. It also appears to have a distinct weakness to close-combat. If the enemy has better ranged-output than the force (say, lots of Autocannons) then the majority of the firepower can be removed relatively easily (Razorbacks, Thunderfire, Land Speeders) and if the enemy is mobile enough they can get up in the force's face and chew through units in short order (11 infantry and a couple of Artillery are easy to take out, even if the vehicles will give issues). Again, how does it manage to win objective-based games, particularly ones where you need to move to capture them? I can see it being an excellent defensive list, just not very mobile (which seems at odds with the idea of a mechanised force). If the 2x5-man Tactical Squads get taken out then you have to use that firepower to eliminate the enemy's force (or at least their troops) which could be rather problematic - LOS means you are likely to have to put the Dreads/Speeders within enemy range, and the Thunderfires have to move to get shots (which can put them out of the cover that protects them so well).

 

I thank your for the ideas - it's certainly a playstyle I hadn't considered and I am going to think about it, it just appears so frail and light on troops that it is disconcerting.

 

Hehe, that´s the difference, you stick to the plain old faithful 10marines+rhino idea, that´s a big reason for your bad results.

 

But somehow,

 

1. A Libby is necessary. If you thing a MotF could ever beat a Libby in case of its use for the whole army composition, you propably don´t play SM for a long time or not at a competative level. If you ever faced termi-walls, jetbike councils or deamon armys, 2/9 chaos lists, you will know what it means to have a highly durable nullzone, beside this, just the ability to stop double lashes, eldar castings, teleporting sternguard/termi-wall armies.. This alone is worth it´s weight in gold.

2. Marines are no good, unless you field them en mass, which is 50+. Sure, you get a T4 3+ servant with a decent anti-infantry weapon, but some 5th edition factors make them dull.

3. The cover saves. Anyone and his mother gets a cover save. For a Marine I get 3 Guardsman. In cover, they do more damage than the marine AND they are more durable. A Marine in Cover doesn´t profit from it untill he faces low AP weapons. Guard does. And vehicles do too.

4. Vehicles got tougher. Much tougher. Infantery didn´t get a boost, at least no SM infantry.

 

 

Comparison:

1. Marines can be wounded through any weapon, die fast to weapons with AP1-3. Vehicles can only be wounded trough some weapons, are invulnerable to most weapons and AP (except AP1) has no effect on them. Ever seen ranged nids or DE or just plain guardsman fiering at marines? No joke, I´d bet my money on the opponent.

 

2. Marines do not profit from coversaves, unless the weapons are AP1-3. Vehicles, already just vulnerable to few weapons, are now at least 100% more durable as they already are. If they are in fortified cover (much likely with my list) they are 200% more durable. Marines in cover, assuming the enemy kills tanks with his AT weapons and marines with his anti-infantry weapons, profit maybe just in 20% of all cases of beeing in cover. Seem you need 3 times longer to destroy a vehicles of mine. To bring down a razor statistically, you need 6 lascannon shots with BS4. In 3+ cover, you need..? Right, 18.

 

3. For every Marine you buy, the enemy gets 3 better ranged fighters or 3 better CC fighters. If you meet shooty enemies, they will easily outshoot your marines. Blow the rhino (needs to get out of cover for cc, because you will loose the gunfight), the marines stand in the open and get shot to pieces. 210 points dead. If you face a CC oriented army, the enemy will slaughter you in combat. The enemy is at you in turn 2, at least in turn 3. But the last case only occurs if you face green tide. And in this case, you have lost the battle before you started, cause you can´t kill enough to make a difference if you field spaceboys. Marines will be the looser in both cases. So why take them? With mech, if you face CC specialist they will come to you and anything you have to do is to deploy cover as much back as possible as well as your units and simply blast them, if they come too close just move so they won´t hit you in CC. If you face shooty opponents, make a good use of your range and make sure you get the alpha strike (reserves) to kill enemies armor (sidearmor hits..). With marines in a rhino, you do not have this advantage of mobile heavy long ranged firepower.

 

4. Some army lists become even mightier because small benefits add up. The more vehicles you field, the lesser becomes the pressure on each units shoulder. You are only vulnerable to AT-weapons, invulnerable to anti infantry weapons. The enemy doesn´t pack only AT stuff and will have stuff to deal with infantry and mech alike. So with the few AT-weapons he got he can attemp to kill a vehicle or two per round save if he concentrates fire, leaving the majority of your army completly untouched, or he can aim at many different targets, wasting hits to cover alike but your forces will remain without a loss (in most cases). Some parts of your force will be unable to shoot, maybe lost a weapon, maybe be immobilized.. But your striking power will not be harmed much. Marines in Numbers can do the same (slightly worser), but you asked for mech.

 

5. Marines shoot Infantry. That is what they are designed for, they can attemp to shoot at tanks but they are not very good at ths and you waste the anti-infantry firepower. Mech is versatile- typhoons with mixed weapons can react to infantry, heavy infantry and tanks alike, so can do TLAC/PC dreads. They are versatile, so they can keep their effectivity no matter what enemy they will face.

 

6.Marines die like flies nowadays, exspecially in days of DE and guard boom. If you field marines because you field them as a combat unit, than of course you will need more of them, because you will have heavy losses. 5 Marines in razorback rushing forward are dead. 5 Marines in a Razorback hiding as long as possible because they only have to babysit an objective and survive are damn hard to kill. Troops are there because you have to take objectives. For this job, 2x5 marines in razor with full mech backup are enough. They are not meant to go forward as they suck, anything they can do there´s a unit it can do it better and more cost effective. With mech, keep your own objectives and shoot the enemy off of his or contest them through LS turboboost in the last round/constant moving a vehicle forward from turn 3.. SM aren´t heroic gamewise.

 

 

 

The strenghs of mech are:

1. Beeing immune to anti infantry weapons

2. Getting most out of cover (due to the fact that only few weapons can hurt them a 3+ save is a big fat bonus)

3. Bringing long range firepower

4. Bringing versatile firepower

5. Bringing mobile firepower

6. Bringing mobility if needed

 

 

This is the SM mech mantra. If you want to be successfull with mech against a somewhat skilled player, stick to it. If you thing 10 marines with rhino and toys are great, then you live in a friendly enviroment.

[minigun762]

I'll caution anyone about trying to trim their troop squads too much.

 

Tactical squads may not be all powerful but in the end, you need to be able to claim objectives. I saw some advice about taking 2x5 man squads and calling it good. That is a very risky plan in my book, as its not that difficult to wipe out 10 Marines and then you are playing a game where you can't possibly win through scoring objectives, at best you can force a draw but even thats unlikely.

[DarkGuard]

I agree with minigun here. You make some good and valid points norngahl, and I'm not sure I can argue against them too much apart from the simple fact that I disagree with them. But then that's my playstyle. If I don't feel too safe with two 10 man Tactical squads with my Sternguard backing them up, how am I going to feel with two 5 man squads with only a Libby as the only other 'flesh' model?

 

And that's what I feel, they are different playstyles. Perhaps mine should be better called mounted mech or something, but IMO they are both two valid mech armies on a sliding scale. I certainly know I couldn't pick up your army and use it myself, but I don't doubt your win ratio. Just for comparison, I was thinking back as far as I could, and in the last 8 games I've won 7, drawn 1, with that list or a variant of it. I can only remember losing once or twice over the summer as well. So yeah, different styles with different results. Certainly my LGS isn't full on competitive, maybe semi-competitive though :).

[Jackelope King]

Alright, taking this from the top, a Mechanized list is based on three principles:

1. Mobility is essential to the adequate projection of a threat and for avoidance of enemy threats.
   
2. Mech is inherently tougher to kill than foot, as there are fewer anti-tank options available to an army than there are anti-infantry options.
   
3. Spam is inherently tougher to defeat than armies which take units piecemeal, as these armies have tremendous redundancy.
   

A Mechanized combat doctrine seeks to deny easy targets to enemy anti-infantry weapons while simultaneously saturating enemy anti-vehicular firepower. This means you put a ton of Rhinos or Razorbacks on the field, supported by mechanized options in your Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support slots. Deny your enemy anything squishy to shoot at, and force the enemy to shoot your transports out from under you.

 

Transports serve to multiply the threat a unit presents by enhancing its mobility, and serve to protect your threats by increasing durability. In Codex: Space Marines, they do this cheaply. Once you control midfield, you take the first step towards dictating the tempo of the game. The next step is knocking out enemy threats to your transports (killing fast melta, autocannons, missile launchers, las cannons, and their equivalents). But most of all, you create a rock-hard presence in midfield that is fairly decent at still disengaging when things look bad and regrouping. Mobility means you can project threats to a larger area while still maintaining strong support between units.

 

For HQ, your go-to is going to be one of a Librarian with Null Zone (and usually Avenger... I understand the arguments for Gate of Infinity, but still think you're better served with Null Zone/Avenger), Vulkan (for Vulkan Mech, see below) or a Master of the Forge (works best alongside a Midlfield Mech army with 5-6 Dreads either waddling into midfield or dropping into the enemy's backfield). Librarian requires the fewest compromises, so it's usually my go-to, but a Master of the Forge or Vulkan can work, though their lists are more specialized. A Master of the Forge in particular wants for either a Bike and a Conversion Beamer or a Scout Squad to camp a home objective with and a Conversion Beamer.

 

There are three approaches to the Mechanized game with Codex: Space Marines:

1. Midfield Mech: Codex: Space Marines is the best Codex in the game for holding midfield, full stop. We can line up 2-3 Rhinos with Flamers or Meltaguns and Multi-Meltas relatively cheaply in midfield, providing a strong midfield support presence. This type of list dares the enemy to come midfield and stop you, using elements like Dreadnoughts, Assault Terminators, and Sternguard in Rhinos to roast incoming enemies. Your Tactical Squads are multi-melta bunkers that command large chunks of the battlefield and deny enemy mech a safe avenue of approach. Your firebase elements can either operate from backfield or midfield (depending on the opportunities). This army depends on denial of midfield to the enemy, and turning it into a killing field by concentrating Marine firepower while simultaneously making it difficult for the enemy to muster an effective response. You also have the option of supporting your midfield presence with fast melta, which Marines get rather cheaply. Midfield Mech does not fear AV13 or AV14.
   
2. Vulkan Mech:While Midfield Mech depends on taking and holding midfield as your forward position, Vulkan Mech is willing to be more aggressive and shove more short-ranged. Vulkan fears AV13 and AV14 even less than Midfield Mech, thanks to twin-linked Melta weaponry. Vulkan Mech will invest in roughly 2 units of TH/SS Terminators in Land Raider Crusaders to run into the enemy's backfield and smash face, while the army's reduced midfield presence acts in a supporting role to interfere with the enemy's ability to respond.
   
3. Armored Cavalry: Another variant, Armored Cavalry hangs back while Midfield Mech and Vulkan Mech move into midfield and beyond. Rather than relying on the units within the transports, the transports themselves are critical in Armored Cavalry, using Las-Cannon/Twin-Linked Plasmagun turrets on Razorbacks to deal with enemy vehicular presence, only deploying their infantry cargo to sweep up the remains of the enemy. Armored Cavalry prefers using a backfield presence, usually with a strong firebase. Armored Cavalry suffers against truly shooty enemy armies, as while it can sport some impressive firepower, it is often insufficient to maintain tempo against a dedicated Imperial Guard or Tau shooting list.
   

 

Regardless of your choice, Mech Armies concentrate firepower. Your mobility will aid in allowing you to concentrate firepower rather effectively, so you can afford to spread out a bit. However, these Marines you have are not the insane Marines of the Codex's fluff. One of them cannot kill a thousand orks, bathe in their blood, rinse his mouth out with their bile, sweeten his tea with their flesh, and then be fresh and ready for the next thousand. You must have you elements positioned to support one another. An enemy who dares encroach on midfield with a heavy vehicle should feel the wrath of not one Tactical Squad's multi-melta, but two of them, plus your fast melta elements, plus your firebase, and then your Dreads, Sternguard, or Assault Terminators should be ready to swoop in and remove whatever infantry that tank's wreckage spills onto the table.

 

And of course, take advantage of mech and deny your opponent good targets. If he starts bringing anti-infantry weapons to bare against your men, mount them up. If he then brings anti-tank weapons, scoot out of range. Saturate the enemy's firepower and keep it saturated until the day is yours.

[norngahl]

[*]Armored Cavalry: Another variant, Armored Cavalry hangs back while Midfield Mech and Vulkan Mech move into midfield and beyond. Rather than relying on the units within the transports, the transports themselves are critical in Armored Cavalry, using Las-Cannon/Twin-Linked Plasmagun turrets on Razorbacks to deal with enemy vehicular presence, only deploying their infantry cargo to sweep up the remains of the enemy. Armored Cavalry prefers using a backfield presence, usually with a strong firebase. Armored Cavalry suffers against truly shooty enemy armies, as while it can sport some impressive firepower, it is often insufficient to maintain tempo against a dedicated Imperial Guard or Tau shooting list.

 

Okay, I see you already have defined different mech-list types. I guess the armored cavalry summons my understanding of mech the nearest, just with the point of beeing heavily

 

supported by mechanized options in your Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support slots

 

.

 

 

Max mech, many heavy weapons, mobility, range.

 

Actually, IG is used very agressivly in my area. Flyers with melta cargo, battle psykers, melta chimeras.. rather midfield armies in my opinion. True, a heavy weapon AT maxed out IG or Tau will be a tough opponent to fight.. But hey, Marine Codex is old and the Achilles is on the way <_<

 

 

greetings