pre-game actions

[maverike_prime]

So I found a shop that isn't an hour away to play at, and I got my first game in over 2 years in the other day. However I ran into an un-expected situation mid way through the game. I suppose I should start at the begining.

 

We were doing a 2 on 1 Apoc battle at 3,000 points, I was the one and I was running my CSMs. I had to proxy a couple things cause I grabbed a wrong case. No big deal, right? Just make sure to tell your opponent what you're proxying and you should be fine. I do have to admit it was funny as anything to proxy my Biker champion with a model that has a heavy flamer. Anyway, I went through all the models that didn't have the "standard bits" and made sure my opponents new that this Aspiring champion with the demon claw had a power weapon, the raptor chapion with the Whip-lash chain weapons counted has having Lightning claws, the Tech-marine looking model was an Obliterator... all the way down the line. Nothing much seemed to come of it until the begining of their turn 3.

 

My Biker squad came in from reserves and I used my Strategic asset to come in on a board edge that was close to the rear armor of a troublesome Baneblade, intending to Melta-gun/bomb the snot out of the blasted thing over the next 2 turns. Flanking the BaneBlade was a Land Raider Crusader. With the exception of the Assault Cannons, I didn't have much to fear to my bikers in reataliation since they're running an Icon of Nurgle making them Toughness 6 and I was out of range of the Multi-melta on it. So I didn't really worry about right away, my priority was to take out the BaneBlade. so I managed to land 3 good shots with the pair of Melta guns and the Combi-melta and managed to take down a structure point and render it unable to move next turn. I then charged in but failed to do any measurable damage (damn melta bomb was a dud lousy good for nothing 5 points...). So the turn ended. I knew the Space Marine player would retaliat against my offending Bike squad cause... lets face it. 10 Toughness 6, relentless marines with twin-linked bolters and a pair of Melta guns strutting around your lines isn't something you want to ignore.

 

So it went down like this: He turns his land Raider crusader to face my bike squad and then says "Okay 2 lascannon shots at your bikers." Turns out he had been running the crusader as a Standard Land Raider the entire time, but had neglected to tell me so. Had I known I'd be facing down a pair of T.linked Lascannons, I would have altered my plans.

 

So here's where my question: before you actually start putting models on the board, how extensively do you go over your army with your opponent? Is it driven more as a point of courtesy or a point of good sports man ship? Do you have a lot of conversions in your army that may look confusing as to what they may represent in game? If so, how conscious are you of telling your opponent about them before you start the game?

 

 

foot note: Tzeentch answered my prayers when the Space Marine player went to Dis-embark his 10 man terminator Squad from the Land Raider and I informed him that a Land Raider can't carry 10 terminators, so we agreed that he lost 5 of them.

[Gaz1858]

Personally i go through my whole list with my opponent, give him a copy of the list to look through as i do it and answer any Qs that come up. This is reciprocated almost every time i do it, if not i just ask what theyve got

[Dan VK]

I am with Gaz1858, that is exactly what I do when I am not playing in the basement with friends. I do not know if it is like this at other Games Workshop stores, but when my local store was still open exchanging lists and declaring the contents of each unit was mandatory.

[Frosty the Pyro]

foot note: Tzeentch answered my prayers when the Space Marine player went to Dis-embark his 10 man terminator Squad from the Land Raider and I informed him that a Land Raider can't carry 10 terminators, so we agreed that he lost 5 of them.

A land raider can hold 6 terminators (it has a 12 capacity in codex space marines) so he should have only lost 4.

 

 

And you should definatly declare anything thats being not strictly WYSIWYG, hell anything that there could be any confusion with at all.

 

"hey thats nice paint job on that tactical squad"

"Wait they're sternguard?"

[Captain Malachi]

Frankly, if he used the crusader model and never told you that it was a standard raider, then he should have played it as a crusader. You'd think while you go through your entire army he'd think to tell you about his. Seems a little shifty to me. :/

[greatcrusade08]

Personally i go through my whole list with my opponent, give him a copy of the list to look through as i do it and answer any Qs that come up. This is reciprocated almost every time i do it, if not i just ask what theyve got

 

This^^^

i always have a list printed in the top of my case, if im ever cutting points or whatnot i go through it with my opponent to make sure he knows whats going on.

As i deploy each transport i tell him which squad goes inside and the wargear load out for that squad..

 

i operate on a no surprises principle and ive never ran into any problems yet.

[dswanick]

Players can take any upgrades that they like (at the appropriate cost), but in Apocalypse battles upgrades absolutley must be represented on the mode, as otherwise keeping track of which model has which upgrade becomes very hard.

My LGGs take this one step further - complete WYSIWYG. It can sound harsh to rule this way, but as you, yourself, pointed out - looking across a huge table battlefield and making a plan which accounts for that model being armed with Lascannons and the other model bearing a Power fist can completely ruin the game enjoyment when you find out they're armed with Hurricane bolters and a Power wepaon.

[thade]

Personally i go through my whole list with my opponent, give him a copy of the list to look through as i do it and answer any Qs that come up. This is reciprocated almost every time i do it, if not i just ask what theyve got

I do this as well, pretty much verbatim. I also never hesitate to answer questions about my list and models, what Wargear they have and what each piece means, for instance. Works well. I am also painstakingly clear about everything else: for instance, when rolling for Reserves, I point at each unit and declare it before I roll, and then I leave the die next to that unit so neither my opponent nor me can be confused about what is coming in this turn.

[maverike_prime]

Frankly, if he used the crusader model and never told you that it was a standard raider, then he should have played it as a crusader. You'd think while you go through your entire army he'd think to tell you about his. Seems a little shifty to me. :/

 

And you very well could be right Cap. His first defense when we established the... mis-communication was "I've never run it as a Crusader".

 

Yeah, that's nice. I meet the guy about an hour before the game started. I didn't think of it before, but now that I play it through in my mind I find it hard to not entertain the possibility that he deliberately 'forgot' to mention the Crusader/Land Raider.

[thade]

My honest recommendation: don't play with that guy again. Hopefully there are other people in that club. ;) You might find (as I have in the clubs I've encountered) that there are are usually enough members such that there's a pool of them that'll be like-minded (or nearly so).

 

I once played against a guy who told me that his Nurgle Terminators were T5 and had FNP that *always* worked. I bought it, until I did the math in my head and realized they each had a 1 in 300something chance of dying. :P Sometimes it's not because they're trying to cheat you; they're just socially inept, dumb, or both. =)

[Isiah]

I once played against a guy who told me that his Nurgle Terminators were T5 and had FNP that *always* worked. I bought it, until I did the math in my head and realized they each had a 1 in 300something chance of dying. :) Sometimes it's not because they're trying to cheat you; they're just socially inept, dumb, or both. =)

 

I think that's a bit harsh and uncalled for thade. Mistakes happen. Provided each of you has your respective Codexes to hand (and I never as a rule play someone that doesn't have theirs) then these things can be tidied up asap.

 

As to the OPs question - it really is down to both of you before the game to ask/question/go through your respective lists. It's game etiquette if nothing else, as described in the BRB p92. I agree that proxying can cause great confusion and that given your full disclosure it does seem odd that your opponent didn't do likewise - I assume you didn't see his list beforehand?

 

Either way: lessoned learned: ask questions, don't assume anything.

 

Cheers

I

[shatter]

Once isn't much of a trend. I'd let him off. He was probably just as excited to be playing someone new as you were.

 

If it happens again, shoot him in the face with your finger.

[thade]

I once played against a guy who told me that his Nurgle Terminators were T5 and had FNP that *always* worked. I bought it, until I did the math in my head and realized they each had a 1 in 300something chance of dying. :) Sometimes it's not because they're trying to cheat you; they're just socially inept, dumb, or both. =)

 

I think that's a bit harsh and uncalled for thade. Mistakes happen.

Yea, I'm sorry about that. To be fair, he did have his codex and did seem disappointed that he was wrong. I forgave him for it, though my post didn't reflect this. Mistakes are fine, when they are honest. What I did not not communicate clearly were the other examples I had roiling through my noggin when I was typing that, involving people who sport rule exploits or blatant disagreements with the rules...that sort of thing spoils my desire to play, and I'd rather not play with people who do that. I chose a poor example though.

 

Bollocks. I'm a jerk. >_<

[JamesI]

Generally, I'm willing to discuss just about anything about my army before a game. Some opponents have lost that right though (one example was a game where my opponent asked me a bunch of questions about my marines which I answered, then I asked him some about his tau army as I had little experience against Tau at the time. His response was "You don't know the Tau. Oh Goody." And told me nothing of his units.

 

Of course, this player got thrown out of a tournament for attempting to cheat in his first 2 games. He got called on it both games and tossed. The TO gave him the benefit of the doubt the first time, perhaps he just didn't understand, the second, good bye.

[maverike_prime]

foot note: Tzeentch answered my prayers when the Space Marine player went to Dis-embark his 10 man terminator Squad from the Land Raider and I informed him that a Land Raider can't carry 10 terminators, so we agreed that he lost 5 of them.

A land raider can hold 6 terminators (it has a 12 capacity in codex space marines) so he should have only lost 4.

 

oh well. He didn't have the Space Marine codex with him, and I only had the Chaos Marine codex so went based on that. The chaos Land Raider only holds 10 models.

[Captain Malachi]

He didn't have the Space Marine codex with him

Just keeps getting better and better...