Jaws from a Rhino

[Fenric]

Me and a friend just started talkign about rules and according to the rules you cannot target your own units so what happens when I use Jaws from the top hatch of a rhino? I mean the line will start at the Rune priest right so that would make the rhino my first target woudln't it and not legal.

 

Seems a bit strange tbh but what do you guys say?

[SJumppanen]

Well, description of Jaww doesn't say that you can't target friendlies and it doesn't have any effect on vehicles anyway, so i see no problem. And also note that you can use flamers from the top hatch so why not Jaww?

[Rofugos]

Short answer: You can use both flamers and Jaws from the rhino.

[wolvesoffenris]

Me and a friend just started talkign about rules and according to the rules you can't fire flamers from the hatch of a rhino cause you can't shoot your own units. Woudl this mean I cannot cast jaws of the world wolf from the top hatch of the rhino aswell? I mean sure my target/targets is further away but the line starts from my Rune Priest so it woud lmean the rhino getting hit.

 

What do you guys say about this?

 

Well there are two issues here and I will address both.

 

1. The new rulebook faq addresses the flamer template issue. In short, it can be fired since the vehicle is not hit.

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...ok_FAQ_V1_1.pdf

Q: If a model fires a template weapon out of a vehicle, will

the vehicle be hit if it is underneath the template? (p66)

A: No it will not be hit.

 

2. The wording for jaws never states that the line must avoid your own models, in fact you can hit and kill your own troops as long as your line targets an enemy model. Also, the power has no effect on vehicles since it is not one of the unit types that the power states that it affects. It might as well be terrain as far as the power is concerned. You can also use the flamer faq as a basis for firing any kind of line/template weapon, including blood lance for the blood angels. After all, the 24" line acts as a 24" template that is the width of a hair.

 

In summary, GW has taken the stance that it is fine to fire shooting attacks of any kind out of the fire points of a vehicle.

[DV8]

@Wolvesoffenris

 

There are several concerns at this point:

 

The FAQ for Jaws states that the first model (no distinction as to what the model must be, or whether it can be hurt by Jaws or not) hit is treated as the target model for all intents and purposes. As Jaws is a psychic shooting attack, it must abide by the regular shooting rules. Thus the first model hit, the "target" model must be an enemy model (as you cannot deliberately elect a friendly model as an target) within LoS that is in range and not locked/engaged in combat. Additionally, if the Rune Priest is attached to a squad, that squad must (if it chooses to shoot) direct any and/or all of its firepower towards said target.

 

Now, Games Workshop has set past precedent (which establishes intent and nothing more) that indiscriminate weapons such as template weapons when fired out of a Rhino's top hatch, while they cover the Rhino itself, don't actually hit said Rhino. But Jaws of the World Wolf is not a template weapon. That templates work in one way does not establish grounds that Jaws should act in the same manner. Afterall, Jaws isn't a "template" weapon per se (as Games Workshop, with terminology, take template weapons as a specific sub-class of weapons using the 8" teardrop template, which Jaws does not). It is simply a psychic power that draws a straight 24" line on the ground, hitting everything it touches.

 

Now the concern is that, despite established precedent, if a conflict still occurs (whereby the template ruling is invalid), there are two ways to approach this.

 

The first is a literal interpretation.

 

As a shooting attack, from a vehicle fire point, the measurements of range and LoS must all be done from said fire point (in this instance, the top hatch). As Jaws is not a template weapon, there is no ruling as to whether or not the Rhino is hit. Since the line drawn from the top hatch must, in point of fact, at some point actually touch the Rhino (and per the FAQ, the first model hit is treated as the "target" model), the Rhino is thus an invalid target as it is a friendly unit, thereby preventing Jaws from being cast out of a Rhino at all.

 

The second is again using past precedent, but is based more on the wording of Jaws than on the extrapolation drawn from the template FAQ already mentioned.

 

Area of Effect (AoE) spells and buffs such as Stormcaller, Tempest's Wrath, or the FNP/FC bubble provided by Sanguinary Priests or Sanguinary Novitiates, are measured from the edge of the model's base. When said model is inside a vehicle, the effects are measured from the edge of the vehicle hull. Jaws is similar, in that the line begins touching the Rune Priest's base, and extending straight out. When inside a vehicle, then, assuming there is a Fire Point from which the Rune Priest can draw LoS to his target, the line would begin touching the edge of the vehicle hull, so long as from where the line is drawn, the Rune Priest can actually draw LoS.

 

So for example, with a Rhino top hatch, the Rune Priest has a 360 degree field of vision and so the line for Jaws could be drawn at any point around the Rhino.

 

If, however, the fire point was on the front of the Rhino, the Rune Priest would only be able to see directly in front of the rhino (and one would assume up to 90 degrees left or right) and so Jaws would always have to be drawn from the front hull of the Rhino, and never being drawn backwards (so that the line at any point exceeds 90 degrees left or right from the central axis of the Rhino.

 

Just food for thought, although note that wolvesoffenris, I actually follow your interpretation, as it seems the most logical/reasonable (although not for the reasons you stated).

 

 

DV8

[wolvesoffenris]

Actually, the FAQ states the he must have Los to the first model the power affects and that model is treated as the target. Rhinos are not affected, so it does not matter if the rhino is hit first. Therefore it is completely within the rules to fire from the hatch.

[DV8]

Actually, the FAQ states the he must have Los to the first model the power affects and that model is treated as the target. Rhinos are not affected, so it does not matter if the rhino is hit first. Therefore it is completely within the rules to fire from the hatch.

 

Touche.

 

However, my argument still stands (in so far as opposition to this statement):

 

You can also use the flamer faq as a basis for firing any kind of line/template weapon, including blood lance for the blood angels. After all, the 24" line acts as a 24" template that is the width of a hair.

 

The FAQ line to which you refer is specifically for "Template" weapons, not just Flamers, and gives no RAW precedence to affect Jaws and Blood Lance. Jaws, as you have pointed out, has been errata'd by Games Workshop, and Blood Lance is a non-issue because friendly models the line passes over are unaffected. The Template FAQ has no influence on firing other weapons out of a hatch/fire point that aren't Template weapons.

 

 

DV8

[MaveriK]

Me and a friend just started talkign about rules and according to the rules you cannot target your own units so what happens when I use Jaws from the top hatch of a rhino? I mean the line will start at the Rune priest right so that would make the rhino my first target woudln't it and not legal.

 

Seems a bit strange tbh but what do you guys say?

 

I'm just amazed at how people over-complicate things and just throw out common sense. It's just like going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car. I'm going to dumb it down for yah; imagine you just got back from drinking with your mates, and your really need to take a leak. so now your taking a piss *your JAWs line* and your aiming at a specific section on your neighbors fence *your enemy*, you get some drips on your shoe *your rhino*, does that make your shoe *rhino* your first target? the answer is NO, your just drunk and your thinking too much.