Combatting Fire Prisms

[skink]

Morning all,

 

The boys in green and bone squeaked a narrow victory last night in a grudge match against the Eldar - 3 killpoints to 2 in a 5 turn, 1000 pt Annihilation game. I had Belial, 5 Terminators (Cyclone, Apothecary), Tactical in Rhino (Multimelta, plasmagun), 5 man Tactical (bare) , combi-Predator and 2 Heavy Bolter Typhoons. The Eldar had a Farseer and squads of Dire Avengers, Fire Dragons, Striking Scorpions and Warp Spiders, 3 jetbikes, a Viper, a Falcon and a Fire Prism.

 

I was forced to take the 1st turn, and Eldar reserved everything; the majority then showed up on his turn 2. The Predator and the Terminators took an absolute beating in turns 2 and 3, with the majority of firepower directed at them. However, the Predator refused to blow up (I think it took about 12 penetrating hits, which all rolled 1s and 2s), and the Terminators managed to wipe out the Scorpions and Fire Dragons again. The Typhoons were very fragile with one blowing up almost immediatley, despite taking care of the Warp Spiders.

 

I was very lucky that the game ended on turn 5 - I had caused enough damage early on to sneak the victory as my marines were tough enough to weather 4 rounds of shooting. When we played on until turn 7 for fun, I think it ended something like 7-4 to the Eldar; I just didn't have enough left in the tank to maintain the beating.

 

My reason for posting is this - the Fire Prism was ridiculous. It took out more stuff than the rest of the Eldar army put together, and there is talk of 2, if not 3, appearing in the next game. How on earth do I cope with 3?? They smash marines and tanks alike, and I'm not sure I can field enough heavy firepower to cope with them.

 

I've got a large variety of infantry, but have a combi-Pred, a dakka Pred, two Dreads (with a mix of weapons), Devastators and Razorbacks (1 HB, 1 TL-LC) to provide long range damage. Or am I thinking about this all wrong - should I be taking out his tanks in CC? If that is the case I have no idea how to catch them!

 

I haven't really been botherd by Eldar infantry yet, they get shredded by bolter fire very readily, but their tanks are so fast and powerful and cheap!! Any advice for useful unit inclusion or application would be awesome. And I think the next game will probably be 1500 points if that makes a difference!!

 

Cheers now

[Gillyfish]

I've not faced one myself, but some options do occur to me (although you may not have the models).

 

1. Ravenwing. Ravenwing attack bikes and combat squads will give you access to melta weaponry and the speed to get it into ideal tank-killing range. The option of taking a couple of small three man squad with meltas plus attack bikes should ensure that you take out one or two of the prisms once you get into range. You can either scout them forward or, if he pulls the reserves trick, hold them back and then use an outflank move to bring them to the side or rear of his tanks. At the very least it might distract him enough to stop pounding the rest of your army for a turn or two. An alternative might be a couple of Ravenwing Landspeeders with multi-meltas and/or assault cannons. They may not last long though.

 

2. Scouts. No, really. They're far from ideal nut they can deploy forward, in a prime firing position to threaten his deployment zone. They're relatively cheap and also come with krak grenades (although it's not the best option). Giving them a missile launcher is an option, as is combat-squadding them and arming the sergeant with a power fist. It's unlikely to kill the tanks (whereas the Ravenwing ought to take at least one out), but it should distract and put pressure on your opponent, leading to some bad decisions.

 

3. Deep strike. Deathwing can deep strike (whether through DWA or normal deep strike). It may not be used much anymore, but it allows you to get close or behind his tanks and crack them open. Another option is a dread in a drop pod.

 

I suspect your opponent is banking on a gunline approach from you and a relatively safe backline for himself. Don't let him. Any of the options above will force him to divert resources to deal with that threat, but they are something of a suicide mission. However, if you used some of them in combination, you will be putting his backline under considerable pressure, putting him on the back-foot and allowing you to reinforce, using your transports. He is likely to concentrate on the most threatening elements of your army, moving his own forces in response to them. If he does that then you know where his forces will be going and you can exploit it.

 

These are a few thoughts. I'm sure some of the others will have better ideas.

[Tanhausen]

Quick thoughts:

 

- I agree with gillyfish: don't allow him to live placidly... put pressure! And that means bodies upclose.

- Meltas are not going to help much vs eldar vehicles due to them negating the 2D6... so you need to hit and then 4+ to glance/pen. I'd suggest you go for S9 or higher... meaning vindicators or lasercannons (either tactical o dreadnought).

- CC you're bound to destroy him (PF and DCCW)... if you catch him AND you hit him... good luck!

- Remember the new FAQ: if his transport goes flat out... and crashes= troops inside die, straigh away :P

 

Hope it helps!

[skink]

Thanks for your suggestions.

 

I'm a total novice when it comes to gaming, and my limited experience of the Ravenwing bikers is that they are too fragile for my clumsy tactics. Though I guess that if they can outflank and the Deathwing can then deepstrike onto them, then that is quite a powerful mix of units amongst his (relatively) delicate vehicles, acting as a dangerous distraction. Some long range Predator/Dread support at the back and some lascannon/plasmagun-toting tacticals to fill in the mid field and I guess that that is a fairly well rounded all-comers list? I think I'd rather field an army that can cope with a variety of enemies and objectives, rather than trying to build an 'Eldar Killer'. Though I may be of a different opinion after our next match up!

 

Thanks again for the quick feedback.

[Bartali]

Just a few corrections as an Eldar and a DA player

 

- Meltas are not going to help much vs eldar vehicles due to them negating the 2D6... so you need to hit and then 4+ to glance/pen. I'd suggest you go for S9 or higher... meaning vindicators or lasercannons (either tactical o dreadnought)

 

Only Wave Serpents have energy fields that negate the extra d6 from Melta. The same energy field also negates strength higher than S8, making S9 lascannons pointless. Melta is still the best here due to AP1, massed missiles or autocannons also work well

 

- Remember the new FAQ: if his transport goes flat out... and crashes= troops inside die, straigh away :huh:

 

Only applies if the vehicle is destroyed (wrecked or explodes) in the Eldar player's turn. IE from a tank shock or landing in impassible terrain only

 

On Wave Serpents - Sounds like he was lucky, normally they don't do much. Your list is a good start, but could do with some fine tuning. At 1000pts you can't have too much diversity, and for anti-tank I'd either concentrate on fast moving melta (MM/HF speeders, RW bikes), or on more static ranged firepower (CMLs, MLs, Autcocannon etc). When you expand out to 1500+ you can mix the two

[Isiah]

Autocanon Mortis Dreads are always a boon v any transport/skimmers due to their range and good of fire (and being TL even better).

[Belial212]

Is that an Eldar FAQ? Or a 40k errata? Just curious, since I haven't read that one.

[aekold]

Main rulebook FAQ/Errata. Look it up on the GW-site.

[Tanhausen]

@Bartali

 

Long time- no read...thanks for the corrections. I thought all Wave-serpent "chassis" had that rule.

 

@Belial212

 

As aekold says, its the november update of the core rules (v1.1 I think). Quite a few things... like and IC giving rules to all of its unit.

 

Example: a Comissar gets a cammo cloak, attackes himself to 50 guards and they all go to ground and get 3++ while only paying for the commy cloak... nice, isn't it? xD

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Remember you You don't need to kill a fire prism, if you face 3 get a stun/shaken result and move to next target. As long as the fire prism isn't shooting you're good.

[skink]

Thanks again for the flurry of comments.

 

Yeah, his Prism wasn't rocking the force field thing, so I guess just stunning it etc. will prevent it from firing and therefore more or less nullify it. Still nervous about using and losing a small biker squad in such a small list (the last time I tried it they died in one volley of Guardian fire), so I think I'll run a combi Pred and then swap the Typhoons for a Dakka Pred and HB Razorback (for the 5 man Tactical). The Aspect Warriors play a major role in his lists, so I figure I'll just shred them and his Guardians with the Tacticals while the combi-Pred and the Terminators hassle the Prisms. The Dakka Pred can fill in the gaps. That's 3 fairly resiliant troops to his (probably) 2 fragile troops- sounds good to me if I can go first/hold the midfield/pop smoke/DWA etc. etc. and cut his legs out from underneath him!

 

Maybe...

 

Peace

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, stunlocking the Fire Prism is a perfecatly viable tactic in most instances. The major problem being that it requires you to use three of your own units each turn to keep them locked in place.

 

Now, it gets worse when he has more of them- as they can link fire to raise the strength and lower the AP value. That means a combined shot kills standard marines outright on a 2+, and the shot is twin linked. So make sure your using your cover and keeping your transports alive.

 

At 1500 hed havce to drop a third of his points on them to take 3 with basic upgrades... so youll likely only see the 2 of them.

 

Those Devastators of yours could be very useful- do you guys tend to play with a decent amount of terrain? A ruin they could perhaps hide in and get some good LOS? Glancing on a 3+ with lascannons, or take a generalist 4 Missile Launcher unit. If you take Lascannons id seriously consider combat squading them so you can shoot two targets a turn- like long fangs but with extra wounds :D.

 

The Dreadnaught could work rather well to. Throw an Assault Cannon and a heavy flamer on that old man and send him down in a drop pod using the inertial guidance system to get a reliable rear armor shot on him... with some small luck your looking at 2-3 pens, wich is better than most things will do.

 

And of course, always play your objectives. Use your smoke launchers when you need them, and as long as you can make one of these guys stunlocked on a turn you dont have to worry about the AP 3 or the S 10.

[Bartali]

Now, it gets worse when he has more of them- as they can link fire to raise the strength and lower the AP value. That means a combined shot kills standard marines outright on a 2+, and the shot is twin linked. So make sure your using your cover and keeping your transports alive.

 

It's kinda meh, you're paying 230pts for that one twin-linked blast. It's semi-useful for anti-tank as Eldar lack reliable ranged anti-tank, but not so great vs infantry in cover.

 

Scoring Holo-field Falcons work better for me in the Heavy Slot

[LardO'Blood]

I find DWA can be really good to put on the hurt early. Especially if he doesn't get turn 1 to redeploy. 2 squads work best, but you need armored threats relatively close to absorb the S8 AP2 bright lances. Apothecaries can be a god save.

[skink]

Well, Belial and 5 Tactical Terminators (AC and Apoth), 10 man Tactical (Plasmagun and Missile) in Rhino with storm bolter, 5 man Tactical (bare) in HB Razor, dakka-Pred and AC-las-sponson Pred just totally whupped the 2 Prism list. In 5 turns I lost the dakka-Pred and the plasma Marine killed himself. In return, I wiped out Fire Dragons, jetbikes, a grav tank, 90% of a Dire Avengers squad, most of a Warp Spider squad and one Prism weapon, whilst immobilising a couple of other tanks. We stopped due to the store needing to close, but there was no doubt as to the victor.

 

They just couldn't handle my armour and a high number of mid to high strength shots which stunned the tanks, prevented them firing (neutering them in this way was very satisfying). However, I was extremely lucky with the Prisms repeatedly scattering off my units.

 

Grey Mage - stunlocking?? What is this, and why does it need 3 units? I think that in the 1500pts I'll be including a 10 Dev squad - either 2 Lascannons and 2 Missiles or 4 Missiles (as Lascannons would be wasteful against holoshield effects) - they'll be lethal, more so if I include a Razorback for them. Not sure how I feel about the podding Dread - I'm a right rookie so I think I'd end up suiciding him with no gain myself!

 

LardO'BLood - I tried DWA-ing my Terminators today, as I wasn't sure where to deploy them in my table quarter (Spearhead deployment). I wan't thinking properly, and against multiple Fire Prisms, I realised that this is probably generally a pretty daft idea. The point being is that 6 Terminators in a circle fit exactly under a small blast template, and are unable to then dipserse. This means that the Fire Prisms that were out of sight when you arived can then drift into sight, and plonk a lethal template ontop of over a third of your army (1k pts). Luckily for me, both scattered miles away (even the Guided one), but it's a mistake I won't be repeating! However, I have used DWA to great effect before, so I'm certainly not discounting it, I just think it's quite situational! And I agreee - I think the Terminator Apothecary is probably the best model I put on the table.

 

Cheers all, I appreciate that people have kept coming up with ideas and suggestions.

[Grey Mage]

Now, it gets worse when he has more of them- as they can link fire to raise the strength and lower the AP value. That means a combined shot kills standard marines outright on a 2+, and the shot is twin linked. So make sure your using your cover and keeping your transports alive.

 

It's kinda meh, you're paying 230pts for that one twin-linked blast. It's semi-useful for anti-tank as Eldar lack reliable ranged anti-tank, but not so great vs infantry in cover.

 

Scoring Holo-field Falcons work better for me in the Heavy Slot

Usually Im only paying 160pts, and thats for the flexability and/or the ability to hit two targets a turn.

 

But then, I use them in a support role for a primarily footslogging force, so Im sure our armies work in an entirely different fashion.

 

@ Skink- Stunlocking is the idea that if he gets a shaken/stunned result on the tank each turn that its incapable of doing its job- shooting you and killing you. You only need to glance the tank once to do this. Of course, killing it is better, but limiting their ability to kill you is easily as important.

[Bartali]

Now, it gets worse when he has more of them- as they can link fire to raise the strength and lower the AP value. That means a combined shot kills standard marines outright on a 2+, and the shot is twin linked. So make sure your using your cover and keeping your transports alive.

 

It's kinda meh, you're paying 230pts for that one twin-linked blast. It's semi-useful for anti-tank as Eldar lack reliable ranged anti-tank, but not so great vs infantry in cover.

 

Scoring Holo-field Falcons work better for me in the Heavy Slot

Usually Im only paying 160pts, and thats for the flexability and/or the ability to hit two targets a turn.

 

But then, I use them in a support role for a primarily footslogging force, so Im sure our armies work in an entirely different fashion.

 

Oh aye, I run Mech Eldar so I'd imagine completely different to your list. 230pts is for the two Prisms.

[Tanhausen]

Apothecary saving S8 AP2? I dont have the codex now but... I recall that you couldn't prevent Instant Death and that you could only prevent wounds that have failed armour save (not invulnerable ones).

 

So basically, its like Feel No pain but with 100% success.

 

Am I missing something?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

You're correct, apothecary can't save S8 ap2 wounds.

[skink]

Yep, that's right - can't prevent the insta-gib. But I'm not sure this has been said...? I interpreted LardO'Blood's comment about Apothecaries as more of a general idea, rather than a gambit against S8 AP2. Though it might be me missing something!!

[Tanhausen]

I guess language issues, sorry :rolleyes:

[Zebukkuk]

LardO'BLood - I tried DWA-ing my Terminators today, as I wasn't sure where to deploy them in my table quarter (Spearhead deployment). I wan't thinking properly, and against multiple Fire Prisms, I realised that this is probably generally a pretty daft idea. The point being is that 6 Terminators in a circle fit exactly under a small blast template, and are unable to then dipserse. This means that the Fire Prisms that were out of sight when you arived can then drift into sight, and plonk a lethal template ontop of over a third of your army (1k pts). Luckily for me, both scattered miles away (even the Guided one), but it's a mistake I won't be repeating! However, I have used DWA to great effect before, so I'm certainly not discounting it, I just think it's quite situational! And I agreee - I think the Terminator Apothecary is probably the best model I put on the table.

Under 5th ed. rules, one way you can mitigate template damage is to make a run move after a deep strike (standard tactic especially for Daemon armies). So you can DWA next to cover, then run into it while dispersing the DW out of the close formation... works wonders for survivability. Like you said though, only DWA when / where you can really make a mess of things.

[skink]

Under 5th ed. rules, one way you can mitigate template damage is to make a run move after a deep strike (standard tactic especially for Daemon armies). So you can DWA next to cover, then run into it while dispersing the DW out of the close formation... works wonders for survivability. Like you said though, only DWA when / where you can really make a mess of things.

 

A good point well made. I guess it means that you sacrifice a round of shooting, but if this means the squad survives... Thanks for the tip!