Fixing Thousand Sons

[BDS]

How to fix Thousand Sons

1. Thousand Son Marines: Same point cost, change to relentless, with lack of sorcerer must move to within 12” of sorcerer, no sorcerers left revert to slow and purposeful.

2. Sorcerers: Same point cost, change to knowing all powers, may cast 1 power per phase.

3. Tzeentch Sorcerer Lords: Same point cost, knows all powers, 3+ invul, Eternal Warrior, plus 6” range to all ranged psychic powers, may cast one power per phase.

4. Ahriman: Same point cost, 3+ invul, Eternal Warrior, plus 12” to all ranged powers, may cast two psychic powers per phase, and knows all powers.

 

General:

1. “Claim for my Own” All chaos sorcerers may attempt to claim for their own any opposing player psychic ability on a roll of 4+. In game terms this means attacks made against a player fielding a Chaos sorcerer may take control of opponent successful psychic attempt; thus a successful attempt at Jaws of the World Wolf would be under the control of the Chaos player and could be directed against the casting players’ forces. In addition, psychic powers that benefit a unit such as fortune or storm caller would also fall under the control of the Chaos player and thus could be used for any Chaos unit currently on the table. Ahariman is successful on a roll of 3+.

2. Tzeentch Sorcerers automatically pass all psychic tests, in the event a Tzeentch Sorcerer may always choose which dice to use for any test; i.e. choosing the lowest or highest if made to roll more or less than normal.

3. Instead of a psychic test a Tzeentch Sorcerer will make a special “Control of the Warp” roll on two dice. If two ones are rolled the Tzeentch Sorcerer will immediately be consumed by the warp and turn into a Chaos Spawn Beast with the following stats and rules.

Chaos Spawn Beast:

BS: 0, WS:5, S:5, T:5, A:5, I:5, LD:10, SV: 5; Monstrous creature, mindless, beast, slow and purposeful, fleet, Eternal Warrior. A Spawn Beast is uncontrollable and will kill whatever is in reach. At the beginning of every player turn players roll off and the player with the highest roll controls the creature for that player turn. A Spawn Beasts save is invulnerable.

 

thanks, BDS

[Wildcard101]

Hello!

 

Thousand Sons are already Relentless due to being Slow & Purposeful.

[BDS]

Hello!

 

Thousand Sons are already Relentless due to being Slow & Purposeful.

 

 

Yes, but they should be relentless without...slow and purposeful I think

[chaplain belisarius]

I reckon they are ok how they are but;

 

sorcerors should pass psychic tests automatically and be allowed 2 powers (tzeentch is the god of sorcery, after all!)

 

:)

[caboosebe]

Just accept it as it is, only a codex update is going to fix (if any at all) the weak points in CSM. That being said, CSM isn't that weak at all. All codeci have bad stuff and good stuff in them. Just play for fun, not to win.

[breng77]

Allowing them to carry special weapons would fix them as is IMO. Maybe let the aspiring sorcerer not have to take a test to use his powers.

 

5 TS

2 melta guns

Bolt of change.

 

While fairly expensive, this is a pretty durable squad, and has 3 anti tank shots.

[Hellios]

Being able to choose ammo types like Sternguard (representing different spells) would make them far more flexible when dealing with armies of massed gribble (where AP3 is a waste of points) but still leave us having trouble with armour.

 

Also we have a 1kson sub-board which might be more suitable for this topic :huh:

[Mr. Sandbot]

Being able to choose ammo types like Sternguard (representing different spells) would make them far more flexible when dealing with armies of massed gribble (where AP3 is a waste of points) but still leave us having trouble with armour.

 

Also we have a 1kson sub-board which might be more suitable for this topic ;)

 

Pretty much what Helios.

My only addition is that they should be able to change ammo types mid game, but in order to do so the Asp. Sorcerer needs to pass a psychic test (unchanging automatons using ever changing weaponry. Very Tzeentch like). Otherwise Aspiring Sorcerers should really just autopass their own tests.

Can a mod move this to the Tzeentch boards?

[Cosmic Archmage]

Being able to choose ammo types like Sternguard (representing different spells) would make them far more flexible when dealing with armies of massed gribble (where AP3 is a waste of points) but still leave us having trouble with armour.

 

From what has been suggested, I think this what I like best.

 

Would an ammo type doing the following be too powerful ? : S:4, AP:2, 24", Assault 1, Melta.

 

Also, I agree with BDS that we definitly need psychic defense, what you suggest might be too powerful though.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

I think a rework of how the Inferno Bolts work would go a long way. In my Chaos Space Marines fandex they are regular bolts but the enemy must reroll successful Armor, Cover, and Invulnerable saves. I think it's more Tzeentchian. Also thinking of adding 'may reroll Armor Penetration dice' so they have a chance against vehicles- however still slim.

 

Also in my fandex Rubrics are Relentless when a Sorcerer's around, S&P and shoots as if in Night Fighting when no Sorcerer around. +1 Wound represents them better than an Invulnerable Save in my opinion. They can upgrade to carry specials and heavies but lose the advantage of Inferno Bolts for those weapons (other than heavy bolters).

 

Also reworked how the Mark of Tzeentch works. It's funky but:

 

Mark of Tzeentch: All units with this Mark (including vehicles) may reroll or force the opponent to reroll one set of failed or successful dice rolls per game turn that affects the Marked unit or its performance. A set of dice is herein defined as either the failed or successful dice rolled by a single unit to perform a specific action with one ability or specific equipment. However, rerolls from other sources supercede rerolls from Marks of Tzeentch- remember that rerolls cannot be rerolled.

 

Ergo, a unit could just do the typical reroll of To-Wound dice at range, and combined with Inferno Bolts as described above this is viable. However, you could also force the opponent to reroll his own failed Armor saves in assault, for example, to force the combat to last another turn so your dudes aren't stuck in the open for the opponent to shoot. And many other interesting uses besides.

[Narse]

I'd like Thousand Sons Sorcerors in a "true Thousand Son only army list" to have the ability to take any non-character specific Psyhic Power from any codex, and automatically pass psyhic tests. Guide would be nice!

 

Greater Demons can be summoned through the body of a Thousand Son marine instead of the Champion if and only if the squad contains 9 marines (and sorceror) at the start of the summoning.

 

The Thousand Sons Sorc can call about his fallen squadmates to temporarily boost his power. By Sacrificing a Thousand Son Marine the squad can do some kind of increased ranged attack.

[Raibaru]

Auto past psychic tests.

Allow them to shoot their bolters in melee combat (2 s4, ap3 shots in melee each would probably make them worth their points!).

Let them be in terminator armor for +5 points with combi infernal bolter and power weapon.

[Phosis]

Ap3 is okay I guess, but it sure doesn't win me any games.. With the volume of fire that I shoot space wolves and blood angels with, the AP of ammunition in my bolters doesn't really matter if they have feel no pain and cover anyways.. the cover on most boards is brutal enough.

 

Anyways, I want more focus on sorcerer powers.. Go go gadget wishlist. But I digress: My point is that auto-passing sorcerers would DEFINITELY make me take wind of chaos on everyone.. He has a BS of 4 instead of the HQ's 5.. why not make it so he doesn't have to roll to hit when he jumps from the rhino? Auto-blast that WoC without popping your skull? Yes please. I'll duel a librarian's hood for that...

 

In response to Tsons psychic defense.. I don't really think stopping the enemy powers worries me so much.. I just want my own to happen... all the time, everytime... Auto pass is all we need guys, I would take that with cheaper rubrics and no Ap3 bolters, honestly.

 

We will see what happens.

[Wolf Lord Fenrir]

I'd like to see a change in the mechanic for the Rubrics (if this was a TSons dedicated codex). Sorcerer Lords in HQ, and smaller sorcerers in the elite slot (ala Sang Priests) instead of part of the unit like now. They'll be 0-3 per slot.

 

Rubrics have same rule as the Eldar wraith constructs - need to be with 6" (changed to 12" for the Tsons) to work, otherwise roll a one and they don't function that turn.

[Ethrion]

1) Auto-passing psychic tests would be very nice indeed.

 

2) In fact there are a lot of things from the 3.5 edition chaos codex for Thousand Sons that was very nice. Like getting a 'free' sorcerer if you take the sacred number of marines in the squad would also be a good benefit for playing fluffy.

 

3) I would also like to see a Thousand Sons army focusing pretty much entirely on sorcerers (as you would expect). So a Thousand Sons havoc squad would be sorcerers instead of heavy weapons for example.

 

4) The different cults of the Thousand Sons should be represented: the Corvidae, Pyrae, Pavoni, Athanaeans and Raptora. Each cult with a focus on specific types of psychic powers. For example the Corvidae specialize in precognition so their powers should be things like re-rolling saves or affecting reserve rolls/deployment. Remember when Ahriman and the Thousand Sons were flying in on the Thunderhawks and he was guiding the other transports to dodge the incoming fire - that kind of thing needs representation.

 

5) Overall Thousand Sons psychic powers need to be uber powerful yet if they fail then they seriously screw the psyker wielding it. Like at the end of A Thousand Sons when all the sorcerers start being overtaken by their powers.

[Frater Uriah]

1) Auto-passing psychic tests would be very nice indeed.

 

2) In fact there are a lot of things from the 3.5 edition chaos codex for Thousand Sons that was very nice. Like getting a 'free' sorcerer if you take the sacred number of marines in the squad would also be a good benefit for playing fluffy.

 

3) I would also like to see a Thousand Sons army focusing pretty much entirely on sorcerers (as you would expect). So a Thousand Sons havoc squad would be sorcerers instead of heavy weapons for example.

 

4) The different cults of the Thousand Sons should be represented: the Corvidae, Pyrae, Pavoni, Athanaeans and Raptora. Each cult with a focus on specific types of psychic powers. For example the Corvidae specialize in precognition so their powers should be things like re-rolling saves or affecting reserve rolls/deployment. Remember when Ahriman and the Thousand Sons were flying in on the Thunderhawks and he was guiding the other transports to dodge the incoming fire - that kind of thing needs representation.

 

5) Overall Thousand Sons psychic powers need to be uber powerful yet if they fail then they seriously screw the psyker wielding it. Like at the end of A Thousand Sons when all the sorcerers start being overtaken by their powers.

 

I've got a couple of points to this.

 

1) Auto-passing psychic tests would be nice. That said, I don't think that it would be appropriate for TSons Sorcerers or Aspiring Sorcerers to get the auto-pass, primarily because it is not supported by the fluff (see your point 5). On the other hand, these guys are the pre-eminent Sorcerers (not necessarily pskyers) in the game: maybe give TSons Sorcerers and Aspiring Sorcerers 3D6 to roll for all psychic tests, and be able to pick the low two.

 

2) There were a whole lot of things in Chaos 3.5 that made the Thousand Sons awesome. They are still awesome, if used correctly, but they have lost a lot of their flex. I don't know if "buy eight Rubrics, get a free Sorcerer" is necessarily the answer. Maybe one of those throwaway indentured mages or something like that from 3.5, so if you fail your psychic roll, when Vorpalsnatch Grindlethratt, Greater Daemon of Tzeentch shows up to take you to hell, you can push that guy in front and say, "He did it." Until Codex: Thousand Sons comes out, take some of the more interesting bits out of 3.5, ask your opponent if it would be okay to try, and maybe make it into a house rule with further playtesting.

 

3) I think a whole list of Sorcerers would be cheez-tastic, and expensive as all get-out. The point of the Thousand Sons is that Aspiring Sorcerers are rare, Sorcerers are rarer, and everybody else was turned into dust bunnies in their armour. I don't think a whole squad of Sorcerers acting as Havocs is necessarily the right answer: for one thing, an Aspiring Sorcerer costs 60 points plus whatever spell you give him. This means your Havoc squad will cost 300 points minimum, and we've not even added spells yet. I'd recommend just using normal Havocs, painting them blue and gold, and giving them the Mark of Tzeentch.

 

4) Per A Thousand Sons, the different cults went out the window with the Legion's fall to Chaos. When Ahriman blasts his brother to ash without effort, the cult deliniations were officially destroyed. If you were playing a pre-Heresy Thousand Sons army, it might be something to try out, though.

 

5) This idea I like considerably. Maybe add 5-10 points to the price of each spell selected, increasing its range or potency (to be determined through some serious playtesting), and let 'er rip. Let Aspiring Sorcerers take Familiars, give 'em a couple of spells each and go. Of course, if they fail their psychic test, they explode like a bomb and do Strength 8 damage to everything within 3D6 inches. The Lord of Change giveth, and the Lord of Change taketh away.

 

Otherwise, I like Inferno Bolts, Slow and Purposeful and really don't have a lot of problems with playing the Thousand Sons as they are now. There seems to be a lot of "how can we make our Thousand Sons kick everybody's @$$" sentiment around. Summoning Daemons out of Rubric Marines ("Don't worry, we'll just fix his armour in the morning"), taking a crap-ton of Sorcerers so your opponent outnumbers you 8-to-one, but you can cast six Bolts of Change into him per turn, and automatically passing psychic tests won't necessarily make gameplay better (not for everybody, anyway). If Rubric Marines are the rank and file, Aspiring Sorcerers are rare and Sorcerers are ultra-rare, then whole squads of Sorcerers can't make sense. I have gotten my Egyptian-style helmet handed to me by my own Word Bearers when playing TSons, but during the same game ripped the everloving hell out of the Tau.

 

Thousand Sons, played alone, are one of the great finesse armies in 40K, surpassed only by the Dark Eldar in my opinion (especially in the DE's current build). Where the Dark Eldar require finesse because they are supremely fast, but very fragile, the Thousand Sons require a lot of strategy because they can't move that fast. Using Rhinos to offset our lack of speed is problematic because they are relatively fragile transports. But the TSons unleash hell in ranged combat against almost every type of opponent, except for Terminators and other 2+ armour save types. While they can handle close combat better than nearly any other "shooty" army in the game, it is not their preferred environment (and this is well-supported in the fluff). There are some fun tweaks that can be implemented, or absorbed out of Chaos 3.5, but I don't necessarily think that wholesale changes and uber-powers will make the list more fun to play, though it may well make it easier to win.

 

That's me off my soapbox. :D

[Ethrion]

1) Auto-passing psychic tests would be very nice indeed.

 

2) In fact there are a lot of things from the 3.5 edition chaos codex for Thousand Sons that was very nice. Like getting a 'free' sorcerer if you take the sacred number of marines in the squad would also be a good benefit for playing fluffy.

 

3) I would also like to see a Thousand Sons army focusing pretty much entirely on sorcerers (as you would expect). So a Thousand Sons havoc squad would be sorcerers instead of heavy weapons for example.

 

4) The different cults of the Thousand Sons should be represented: the Corvidae, Pyrae, Pavoni, Athanaeans and Raptora. Each cult with a focus on specific types of psychic powers. For example the Corvidae specialize in precognition so their powers should be things like re-rolling saves or affecting reserve rolls/deployment. Remember when Ahriman and the Thousand Sons were flying in on the Thunderhawks and he was guiding the other transports to dodge the incoming fire - that kind of thing needs representation.

 

5) Overall Thousand Sons psychic powers need to be uber powerful yet if they fail then they seriously screw the psyker wielding it. Like at the end of A Thousand Sons when all the sorcerers start being overtaken by their powers.

 

I've got a couple of points to this.

 

1) Auto-passing psychic tests would be nice. That said, I don't think that it would be appropriate for TSons Sorcerers or Aspiring Sorcerers to get the auto-pass, primarily because it is not supported by the fluff (see your point 5). On the other hand, these guys are the pre-eminent Sorcerers (not necessarily pskyers) in the game: maybe give TSons Sorcerers and Aspiring Sorcerers 3D6 to roll for all psychic tests, and be able to pick the low two.

 

2) There were a whole lot of things in Chaos 3.5 that made the Thousand Sons awesome. They are still awesome, if used correctly, but they have lost a lot of their flex. I don't know if "buy eight Rubrics, get a free Sorcerer" is necessarily the answer. Maybe one of those throwaway indentured mages or something like that from 3.5, so if you fail your psychic roll, when Vorpalsnatch Grindlethratt, Greater Daemon of Tzeentch shows up to take you to hell, you can push that guy in front and say, "He did it." Until Codex: Thousand Sons comes out, take some of the more interesting bits out of 3.5, ask your opponent if it would be okay to try, and maybe make it into a house rule with further playtesting.

 

3) I think a whole list of Sorcerers would be cheez-tastic, and expensive as all get-out. The point of the Thousand Sons is that Aspiring Sorcerers are rare, Sorcerers are rarer, and everybody else was turned into dust bunnies in their armour. I don't think a whole squad of Sorcerers acting as Havocs is necessarily the right answer: for one thing, an Aspiring Sorcerer costs 60 points plus whatever spell you give him. This means your Havoc squad will cost 300 points minimum, and we've not even added spells yet. I'd recommend just using normal Havocs, painting them blue and gold, and giving them the Mark of Tzeentch.

 

4) Per A Thousand Sons, the different cults went out the window with the Legion's fall to Chaos. When Ahriman blasts his brother to ash without effort, the cult deliniations were officially destroyed. If you were playing a pre-Heresy Thousand Sons army, it might be something to try out, though.

 

5) This idea I like considerably. Maybe add 5-10 points to the price of each spell selected, increasing its range or potency (to be determined through some serious playtesting), and let 'er rip. Let Aspiring Sorcerers take Familiars, give 'em a couple of spells each and go. Of course, if they fail their psychic test, they explode like a bomb and do Strength 8 damage to everything within 3D6 inches. The Lord of Change giveth, and the Lord of Change taketh away.

 

Otherwise, I like Hellfire ammunition, Slow and Purposeful and really don't have a lot of problems with playing the Thousand Sons as they are now. There seems to be a lot of "how can we make our Thousand Sons kick everybody's @$$" sentiment around. Summoning Daemons out of Rubric Marines ("Don't worry, we'll just fix his armour in the morning"), taking a crap-ton of Sorcerers so your opponent outnumbers you 8-to-one, but you can cast six Bolts of Change into him per turn, and automatically passing psychic tests won't necessarily make gameplay better (not for everybody, anyway). If Rubric Marines are the rank and file, Aspiring Sorcerers are rare and Sorcerers are ultra-rare, then whole squads of Sorcerers can't make sense. I have gotten my Egyptian-style helmet handed to me by my own Word Bearers when playing TSons, but during the same game ripped the everloving hell out of the Tau.

 

Thousand Sons, played alone, are one of the great finesse armies in 40K, surpassed only by the Dark Eldar in my opinion (especially in the DE's current build). Where the Dark Eldar require finesse because they are supremely fast, but very fragile, the Thousand Sons require a lot of strategy because they can't move that fast. Using Rhinos to offset our lack of speed is problematic because they are relatively fragile transports. But the TSons unleash hell in ranged combat against almost every type of opponent, except for Terminators and other 2+ armour save types. While they can handle close combat better than nearly any other "shooty" army in the game, it is not their preferred environment (and this is well-supported in the fluff). There are some fun tweaks that can be implemented, or absorbed out of Chaos 3.5, but I don't necessarily think that wholesale changes and uber-powers will make the list more fun to play, though it may well make it easier to win.

 

That's me off my soapbox. :D

 

1) Ok, auto-passing psychic tests is probably overkill. 3D6 pick the two lowest is probably better. LOL!

 

2) Maybe not the 'free' sorcerer bonus but certainly a return to more options if you take a pure Thousand Sons army like the 3.5 codex gave out. Unique weapons, characters etc.

 

3) While they would all be 'sorcerers' (aspiring or otherwise) they would all fulfill specific roles; so the 'havoc' squad sorcerers would have access to a couple of unique spells available only to them (equivalents of a lascannon type psychic spell etc. I didn't mean they would all be the same sorcerer class across every force slot, sorry.

 

4) I didn't know that the cults went out the window. Certainly the Legion's structure was shattered but maybe the sorcerers that survived that also remained loyal to Ahriman might have kept a specialization of their psychic skills and then those trained later might take on specializations as well. However, if all sorcerers in the Thousand Sons are now practiced in all the 5 different cult magics then maybe there still could be 5 classes of spell to choose from when tooling up your sorcerers and aspiring sorcerers: fire, precognition, telekinesis etc. Would be cool to have some spell effect variation that way and it would tie in nicely with the fluff background

 

5) Maybe to represent the sorcerer pulling in more and more power from the warp you could have spells that you keep rolling dice to increase strength or AP but then as you keep rolling the risk of miscast increases. For example: initially 'Spell X' is S1 and you can keep rolling a D6 to boost the strength. But on a roll of a double it backfires and hits the sorcerer. Something like that anyway (just of the top of my head).

 

I certainly didn't meant to imply that I wanted to make Thousand Sons uber broken and cheesed out, just more flavoured to suit the fluff (tantalizingly given to us in 'A Thousand Sons').

 

I suppose sorcerers should be more rare now in the Thousand Sons than they were during the crusade and the heresy but I still feel that they should be predominant. With the rubric marines being the automaton 'meat shield' that protects them. Maybe there could be HQ level sorcerers, Elite level sorcerers and troop level sorcerers all with access to representative amounts of spells.

 

I was also toying with the idea that rubric marines could be controlled in a similar way to synapse; ie. a sorcerer has a 'command' range of 6" and as long as a rubric squad is within that range it can function normally. But if it was caught outside of the 'command' range then they would suffer effects like always having to test for night fighting, becomes pinned or even at the end of the turn the squad takes D3 casualties as their armour falls apart.

 

I dunno, just some thoughts (at 4:20am) :wacko:

[Hellios]

All I'm going to say is that Aspiring Sorcerers cost too much at the moment... they need to be cheaper...

[Frater Uriah]

All I'm going to say is that Aspiring Sorcerers cost too much at the moment... they need to be cheaper...

 

And this I agree with completely. The current points cost effectively makes them minor SM Librarian equivalents (one power that you have to pay extra for in the first place, and a force weapon, but no matching statline or psychic hood). Even a buffed WS could make the cost more worthwhile, or giving them something like the "roll 3D6 and pick the low two" for psychic tests that I mentioned above.

 

Ethrion, I hope I didn't seem too blunt in my reply to you. That was not my intent at all, but in re-reading what I wrote, I may have come across that way. Sorry if I did.

 

I'm going to ask my group about playtesting the 3D6 and picking the low two, trying out some of the unique 3.5 equipment that seems to fit best in the new addition. I really liked your new points 4 and 5. Maybe coming up with variants of the current C:CSM psychic powers, dusting off a few of the 3.5 ones, and detailing a new, Sorcerer-specific rule for previous cult membership (these are the same guys who were in the cults 10,000 years ago, after all, and old habits, even very old ones, die hard.) So, the former cult member, while he has access to any power he wants, gets an additional ability for X points, determined during list build. Maybe Corvidae allow whatever unit they have joined to re-roll one failed roll of any sort once per turn, something like that? I recommend keeping this to actual Sorcerers, as it is a bit too much firepower for an Aspiring Sorcerer, and doesn't make sense (the Aspiring Sorcerers would have been cult apprentices pre-Heresy, so they wouldn't have had access to all the tricks of the trade their masters had). The former-cultist background would be both cool and fluffy, and would spice up the interest factor of a pure Thousand Sons list.

 

For the Sorcerous Havocs, maybe just get a squad of appropriately modeled CSMs to look both necessarily sorcerous AND imposing, give them the Mark of Tzeentch, and say they pack the sorcerous equivalent of the appropriate Havoc weapons? So your Lascannon Havoc simply casts a spell that functions by rote as a lascannon, with no psychic test necessary. You can model them up as cool as you please, and as long as everybody's clear that the guy on the right with his arms in the air can cast Magic Missile with the same stats as a Havoc Launcher, you have a visually interesting, fluffy unit that doesn't deviate from C:CSM one iota. :P

 

Your new point 5: Wow, wow, WOW do I like this idea. ;) I say, keep rolling until you hit endstate or explode. Before you roll 2D6 (in this case, I'd say the 3D6 idea would be out the window) for a normal psychic attack, you can elect to "push" your power. Say you want to add an additional 3X to you to your Gift of Chaos's range: roll 5D6 (2D6 for normal Perils of the Warp, plus 3D6 more because you want to add three times to Gift of Chaos's normal range of 6" (or for each level of AP on top of the norm, or for each level of Strength, as appropriate). If you roll more than two 1s, you detonate spectacularly with the force of a Meltagun, hitting everything in an XD6" radius, with X determined by how many dice you added to your roll; but the spell works as you intended, for what it is worth. If you roll higher than your leadership, something "interesting" happens (perhaps determined by a "Vehicle Damage"-type roll.) Ultimately, failure could at best end up with you stunned for a turn or two, at worst exploding in a nova of warp-fuelled fury. Maybe make it affect the whole squad in question, as they are shaken or ripped apart by the eldritch forces your unfortunate Sorcerer dabbled in?

 

Not sure about the synapse-type control bit, though it is a very interesting idea. This is kind of covered in their "The Sorcerer Commands" special rule, but giving an actual Sorcerer a 6" control range, as opposed to actually being in the unit, could be viable. For example, one of your Aspiring Sorcerers just exploded trying to cast a Bolt of Change at the cowardly Tau (this happend to me a couple of weeks ago, actually). Your Rubrics creep along at 1D6" per turn without him, but lo! along comes your friendly, neighborhood Sorcerer, moving along apace with another squad of Thousand Sons. Once he is within 6", your Aspiring Sorcerer-free Rubrics may again move as if they had an Aspiring Sorcerer in charge, bearing in mind that if one squad moves out of the 6" range, since no two TSons units travel at the same pace, the unit without an Aspiring Sorcerer drops its movement back to 1D6" until it's back within 6" of the Sorcerer.

 

I'm going to request trying this all out during my next game.

[Frater Uriah]

And, in line with my last post, regarding what happens when you roll above your Leadership when a Sorcerer or Aspiring Sorcerer "pushes" his psychic abilities, here is the Sorcerer Damage Chart:

 

1- Squad immobilized. A warp/realspace anomaly causes the ground beneath the squad to shift, unbalancing them. While the squad may still shoot normally, it will not be able to move during the next Movement phase.

2- Squad shaken. A flux in physical space throws the squad to the ground. The squad may neither move nor shoot during the following turn, but may react normally if assaulted.

3- Squad frozen. Locked in a bubble of spacetime, the squad is temporarily frozen in stasis. They may neither move nor shoot during the following turn, and may not react if assaulted, though saving throws may still be taken as normal.

4- Sorcerer destroyed. The unrestrained force of the Empyrean roils through the Sorcerer, incinerating him from the inside out. Sad, instant death provides all witnesses with a fine light show.

5- Sorcerer obliterated. A rift in reality opens within the unfortunate Sorcerer, wrenching him into the fathomless abyss of warpspace. The Sorcerer explodes, doing a Strength 8, AP 1 attack to everything within 1D6" of him.

6- Squad obliterated. Bound together by the horrific effects of the Sorcerer's meddling with eldritch truths too great for him, the entire squad undergoes a horrific chain reaction. Everything within 3D6" of the squad suffers a Strength 10, AP 1 attack. Needless to say, no saves of any kind may be attempted by the unfortunate squad's members. If the Sorcerer is an Independent Character and not attached to any squad, this roll results in the effects of rolling a 5- Sorcerer obliterated.

 

Progressing from "not so bad" to "horrifically self-destructive," this Thousand Sons exclusive damage chart is random, fun and fluffy. :) I'm trying this out the next time I play TSons as well.

[Ethrion]

Yeah, no you didn't come across blunt. I hadn't really made my points all that clear and I was pretty brief so just wanted to expand and think them out a little more.

 

Actually, what you said about using 'sorcerer' models to represent havoc heavy weapons is exactly what I am doing. I followed Brother Phosis' example and made 9 'sorcerers' that count as obliterators.

 

Me and a friend are writing up our own hybrid Thousand Sons codex that incorporates eldar-esque psychic traits such as the 3D6 psychic test and powers like 'guide' as well as our own psychic powers for each cult. If you liked the idea of 5) the escalation of power, then I would be happy to forward you the list of powers we came up with if you want a few lolz! For example we have a Raptora cult (telekines) ability that if successful tears a weapon from a vehicle. You have to roll to 'hit' the target vehicle then roll equal to or above the strength of the weapon on 1D6+D3. :)

 

I like the damage table you came up with, v.cool.

[Frater Uriah]

I think I may have to try some of the various "counts-as" sorcerers for my list. I've never been too keen on the Obliterator models, really (the one I have is one of the old editions that looks like he's made of scrap metal).

 

If you'd let me take a look, I'd really enjoy seeing what your TSons Codex is all about. I'm really curious about the specific cult powers and other abilities, especially in light of the "escalation" powers we've been discussing.

 

I'm glad you liked the Sorcerer Damage Chart :) I tossed that off in about five minutes in an email to one of my friends while I was at work today. Just the Vehicle Damage Chart, made a bit more personal and explosive! If you try it out, let me know how it works for you.

[Ethrion]

I'll just post up what we wrote down in here. It's all very rough and definitely needs a lot of work and alteration done to it before it can function properly. Plus, we wont have all of the powers we wrote down, we just kept writing them until we couldn't think of anymore. We wanted to make up lots in order to have plenty to chose from. I'm sure some are outright overpowered and some are rubbish LOL!

 

 

Thousand Sons

 

If you take a pure Thousand Sons army you may take Aspiring Sorcerers as Heavy Support.

 

Sorcerers hold a 6" 'command' range over rubric marines. When a rubric marine squad is with 6" of a sorcerer they act as normal. If outside of 6" they revert to their automaton state which means they are subject to the night fighting rule, they must stay stationary and cannot run either. At the very end of the player turn (after close combat has been resolved) roll a D3 and lose that amount of rubric marines as if they have fallen apart.

 

 

Rubric Marine

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv

3 4 4 4 1 2 1 10 3+

 

No: 5-20

Weapons: Bolter, Krak

Special: Fearless, Slow and Purposeful

 

 

Aspiring Sorcerer

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv

4 4 4 4 1 4 1 10 3+

 

No: 1-4

Weapons: Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak, Close Combat Weapon

Special: Fearless, Relentless

 

Aspiring Sorcerers are basically the heavy weapon squads of a Thousand Sons army. They only know a handful of spells of which 1 needs to be chosen pre-game. These spells have the same stat line as mundane weapons such as lascannons, plasma cannons, heavy bolters etc. A squad of Aspiring Sorcerers must maintain squad coherency with each other but can attach to a squad of rubric marines. The count as having the 6" command range.

 

 

Sorcerer

WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv

5 4 4 4 1 4 2 10 3+

 

No: 1-5

Weapons: Bolt Pistol, Krak, Force Weapon

Special: Independent character

 

Can take up to 5 sorcerers per elite slot. However, they can operate independently and do not need to maintain squad coherency. Cannot take more than 1 sorcerer from the same cult. Each cult sorcerer brings with them a passive ability which applies to whichever squad the sorcerer is currently attached to. Each sorcerer can target a separate enemy or friendly unit for the purposes of spell casting. If they want to charge they must charge one of the enemy units that was targeted in the shooting phase by one of the sorcerers. (See Codex: Daemons for the proper definition of how this all works).

 

Corvidae: Re-roll enemy's successful cover-saves.

Pyrae: Bolters use Special Issue Ammunition (see C:SM).

Raptora: Revive D3 rubric marines on 1D6 4+ at start of player's movement phase.

Athanaeans: Allows squad to move in the assault phase if possible. 2D6 pick highest.

Pavoni: 4+ invulnerable save.

 

All sorcerer powers are Assault weapons unless specified. Thousand Son Sorcerers take psychic tests on 3D6 and pick the two lowest.

 

Perils of the warp

 

Double 1:

1-2 Dead no save allowed

3-4 Spawn

5-6 No effect

 

Double 6:

1-4 Dead no save allowed

5 Spawn

6 Spell goes off on target unit and casting unit.

 

NOTE: A lot of the details are missing from the spells, such as things like which phase the power is cast in, whether it is a 'heavy' weapon etc. These would be added in later, we just haven't got around to it yet.

 

Corvidae

1) Seize initiative on a 4+. (pre-game)

 

2) 3+ cover save to vehicle after enemy has hit and penetrated. 24"

 

3) Re-deploy D3 units after deployment and infiltrators. (pre-game)

 

4) Before friendly IC dies can choose to remove him from play. IC cannot attack that turn but does not count for kill points or any combat resolution.

 

5) Move up to D3 objectives after enemy has deployed.

 

6) Remove 1 objective by end of T3

 

7) Reduce cover save by 1. Unlimited range.

 

8) Warptime

 

9) Sorcerer becomes I10 until start of his next turn.

 

 

Pyrae

 

1) Warp Fire: Template, wound on 4+, AP3

 

2) Coruscating flame: Base to base, S3 + D3, AP 4

 

3) Wall of fire: Anywhere up to 12" from the caster draw a line up to 12" long. Cannot see through the flame. Models moving through the flame take a S5, AP 4 hit each. Vehicles hit on rear armour.

 

4) Fireball: 24", blast, S6, AP3

 

5) Conflagration: 24", large blast, S4, AP5

 

6) Draw a line 24" from the sorcerer, must have line of sight to first target. All enemy non-vehicle models in the line suffer 1 S10 AP2 hit. Friendly models are ignored.

 

7) 24", any friendly vehicle suffering from a shaken or stunned result can be controlled and used as normal.

 

8) 12", enemy vehicle can be controlled by the sorcerer.

 

 

Raptora

 

1) 24" S4 AP5 Assault 4

 

2) 24" S6 AP4 Assault 2 Rending

 

3) 18" S8 AP- Assault 1. No armour or cover saves allowed

 

4) 18" S10 AP1 Assault 1 Lance

 

5) 12" target any enemy unit or vehicle (including immobilized) and reposition anywhere within 24" of the original location including difficult and/or dangerous terrain but not off the table

 

6) 18" enemy must take a pinning test on Ld7 or under

 

7) 24" S1 + D6 continuous. Perils of the warp if you roll a double.

 

8) 12", line of sight. 2D6 equal or higher than the weapon's strength being targeted for it to fire at it's own rear armour.

 

9) Enemy models in base to base strike at I1.

 

10) Unlimited range, 3 blast or 1 large blast, roll 1 D6 for the scatter, for the duration of the enemy turn treat the area under the template(s) as difficult and dangerous.

 

11) Range 18", enemy units WS and BS reduced to 1 until start of psykers next turn.

 

 

Athanaeans

 

1) 24" Enemy non-vehicle unit must pas a Ld test or fall back 2D6

 

2) 24" Enemy non-vehicle unit must pas a Ld or not be able to shoot or assault in the next phase. It may move and run as normal.

 

3) Unlimited range, all shrouded or concealed units are seen as normal.

 

4) 18" enemy vehicle only. If successful all guns must fire at nearest enemy's friendly unit.

 

5) 24" all enemy units must roll for night fighting to see the unit.

 

6) 24" all enemy units must pass a Ld test before they assault target unit. If they fail they may not assault.

 

7) 24" Target enemy unit acts as if it is moving through difficult terrain.

 

 

Pavoni

 

1) 24" boosts kine shields to 3+

 

2) 24" 2D6 hits, S5 AP6

 

3) 48" Assault X (keep rolling D6 to determine amount of hits, stop rolling once you roll a double) S4 AP-

 

4) 36" S9 AP1 Blast. Will always scatter full amount if arrow is rolled.

 

5) 24", enemy invulnerable shields are reduced by 1 to a minimum of no save

 

6) 12" grants a friendly vehicle a 4+ invulnerable save for duration of enemy turn.

 

7) Any model in base to base with the sorcerer sufferes D3 S4 AP5 wounds with armour saves allowed.

[Phosis]

Looks a lot like the mini book I've written for my house rules. Very good stuff, you rock

[Frater Uriah]

I agree, this is a very exhaustive list of interesting options for the TSons. I'm still digesting it. I'm doing an analysis of it, if you'd want my two cents when I'm finished.