Special weapon choice

[Gv0zD]

Hi, everybody!

 

Despite BA receiving new dex in spring 2010 I started my 5th ed army only now (well, job, PhD and budgeting issues take toll :P ).

 

So, I've recently posted 1k list (my first one since new dex was released), I noticed that many people tend to maximize meltaguns and not take flamers. I checked a few posted army lists and it seems that the trend is obvious. There are many lists that include RAS or HG with 2 MGs and no Flamers. 

 

However in 4th ed flamers did perform pretty well and MG+Flamer was a popular combination (for HG at least), so I wonder why do people tend to ignore this fine weapon. 

 

If any of you can share the experience of using flamers in Tacts, RAS and HG, please comment. 

 

Thanks in advance!

[shatter]

I don't use melta-guns or flamers in my army. (chuckle)

 

My next will feature an equal amount of both as they can both appear on dreadnoughts... if I actually get around to doing it... and I may change my mind about the whole thing...

 

*sigh*

 

It's a kind of rule that tacticals favor flamers more than assault squads do. This is probably the main reason why they're less than popular on BA lists as players still choose RAS over tacticals most of the time. Same with HG really, CC is favored. Ie. one typically doesn't want a big shoot phase to interfere with assault ranges. MG open up the tin cans to again, allow good CC.

 

If one was to buck the trends a little and have, say 4 troops; 2 RAS and 2 Tacticals, I'd want MG on the RAS and a flamer on each of the tacticals.

[vahouth]

2 weapons, so different uses.

Since I like lists that can have level of variety, I use them both.

[JamesI]

Personally, I use meltaguns over flamers.

 

Why? Simple.

 

My lists have a hard time usually dealing with big things (tanks, monsterous creatures) and meltaguns help.

 

Flamers are good at killing hordes. So are assault marines in close combat. Flamers tend to kill many models, often making it impossible to charge.

 

For me, my first squads use meltaguns, then as I add more (either a third large RAS or a second razorback RAS) then the new squads get flamers.

[Jorre]

I like flamers in small 5 man combat squads because they can't really deal with large groups in HtH so a flamer really helps them. If you are running a larger squad that can probably annihilate a horde on the charge I would always go the meltagun, it will allow them to help deal with larger targets like vehicles and MC's. A 10 man assault squad with 2 melta's and a power fist can deal with most threats especially with the charge.

[Justin2008]

I got 3 tactical squads all with differetn weapons. meltagun, flamer and plasma gun.

 

Its good to take flamers because releasing one fo them bad boys into the frail, is enough to to wittle down a squad as normal assault marines can not do it all on their own.

 

However saying that, having a meltagun also is good because of vehicles, such as seeing your enemy fly a skimmer next to you not realising you can pop off a S* melta weapon into his but.

 

However to differentiate between the two is like comparing a power sword to a boltgun, 2 completely different weapons.

 

overall i tend to use more flamers, as killing many models is better than jsut 1 (which you can just assault and use grenades on).

 

But i spose its down to personal opinion and expereince.

 

:)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

After playing a few games against the new Nids I have switched over to meltagun/flamer/infernus pistol for my assault squads.

 

G :)

[Gv0zD]

I like flamers in small 5 man combat squads because they can't really deal with large groups in HtH so a flamer really helps them. If you are running a larger squad that can probably annihilate a horde on the charge I would always go the meltagun, it will allow them to help deal with larger targets like vehicles and MC's. A 10 man assault squad with 2 melta's and a power fist can deal with most threats especially with the charge.

 

I got 3 tactical squads all with differetn weapons. meltagun, flamer and plasma gun.

However saying that, having a meltagun also is good because of vehicles, such as seeing your enemy fly a skimmer next to you not realising you can pop off a S* melta weapon into his but.

 

However to differentiate between the two is like comparing a power sword to a boltgun, 2 completely different weapons.

 

Well, I shouldn't have said "MeltaGun vs Flamer" in topic name, it's more like "Why so many Meltas and few Flamers?".

 

I personally share Jorre's point of view, as in low pts lists where I tend to take 5-man squads (either RAS or Tacts) I find flamers pretty useful as they make my fights with crowds way easier. Of course I take MG - it's obviously a pretty useful weapon. But I was a bit surprised when I saw quiet a few 1000 pts lists with 4-5 MGs and no flamers.

 

Thanks for your feedback, fellas! If you find some time, please check my army list (the link is contained in original post) and leave some comments ;)

[Redfinger]

I took a look at your 1k list and I really feelt that you are lacking in melta. I never played 4th edition so I dont know what the real differences are between 4th and 5th, but looking at your list I think you would have a pretty hard time of it. Not to be overally critical, but your list does nothing to maximise the BA strengths and minimize their weakness, it is a very "hybrid" looking list and frankly SM's do hybrid much better than BA, our tanks are too expensive, so to get a reliable hybrid list means more points, like 2k+.

 

I would also suggest going for 1250 as opposed to 1k. 1k is very tricky to make work, 1250 sime options start opening up a bit. I do notknow hoe competative you plan on being, but to optimize the best that BA offers you may want to consider a DOA, mech or foot list, rihno rush can also work well for BA, but not so much at 1250.

 

If you have the time kirby over at "3++ is the new black" has put together some really nice articles on the "way" that 5th edition runs now. It is largely based around the idea of mobility, the more of it that you can pack into your list the better off you tend to be when it comes to handling a variety of opponents. This goes back to my statement about not maximizing the BA strenghts, we can move 18in, and 12in and fire everything, we can take LOTS of heavy flamers or Ass-cans, we can take assault squads as troops, we have fnp preists...these are some of the things to consider....

 

Lastly to get back to your original question, ask your self these 3 questions when building your list

 

1. How am I going to handle the mobility of my opponent, do I have enough mobility in my army?

2. How am I going to handle the meltaguns from my opponents army, do I have enough melta my self?

3. How am I going to handle the mech from my opponents army? Do I have or need mech myself?

 

The more answers you have for these questions the better off you will be, this is not to imply that mobility, melta and mech are the 3 needed elements of a army, rather it is to suggest to you how to build an army that is capable of handling a variety of opponents...

 

Hope that helps

 

Ashton

[bushman101]

I tend to run flamers and meltas to various degrees depending on my list.

 

If I'm doing a mostly JP army, I pack in some meltas

If I'm doing a bunch of Razorbacks with TL Lascannons, then I add some flamers.

[JamesI]

After playing a few games against the new Nids I have switched over to meltagun/flamer/infernus pistol for my assault squads.

 

G ;)

I have been considering this set up (that or Morticon's melta/melta/hand flamer). Haven't had time to test it yet.

[jbarket]

I prefer to keep my squads fairly task focused... if they're going to run MGs, they're going to all run MGs... but I do take at least one squad with 2x FL. I'm also a believer in HF Razorbacks and major fire laying down Baals if there's room for them.

 

But I consider all of that a distant second to meltas. Being able to torch your bit squad before my 5 man gets into it helps, but if I can't get you out in the first place, it doesn't really matter.

 

Plus meltas are still useful against infantry. It's an easy wound with no armor save against normal troops, and a way to thin out troops with invuls before charging into them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have a hand flamer for my Librarian that runs with a very choppy Honor Guard.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

I've been using one JP assault with 2 meltas, one JP assault with 2 flamers, and a third assault in a rhino with meltas, amongst other things. I really love the flamers to be honest. Look more folks play SM's than anything else and against SM's the flamers are just mediocre, but against nearly everything else they are truly fantastic. Several new Dark Eldar armies have popped up over here and they are hating my flamers so much. :)

[Gv0zD]

That's what I was talking about - against infantry-heavy armies Flamer should do great, but in case of SM they are surely not so good, and MGs should perform better. In my case the most likely enemies are Orks and maybe Tau (if my friend finally assembles his army). The balance is the key :)

Now, I think I'll go mostly with assault squads and Razors in my list, I think I'll equip them with MGs, while some Sarges will take Hand Flamers in case some nasty hordes show up.

Again, thanks for feedback! It's always welcome.

[Isryion]

I make my assualt squads balanced but slightly weighted to melta and run exactly what Black Orange does. As most have said, I think this isn't really an either or and depends on your list and what it may be lacking.