Regular v.s. Assualt Terminators

[Shadowstalker Grim]

TH/SS fill a particular niche as I think we've all agreed, they can kill most targets in CC and its rare they'll have to avoid something. The thing is Tactical Terminators may not be CC oriented, by they stand top of the pile in CC as a non CC specialist.

 

The point has been made that realistically both targets will have similar results for most units and after then point where Tactical terminators will start to falter and do less damage and take more, is where tactical terminators start living up to their name. They can target anything below that bracket, stand a chance of smashing a range of targets reasonably, they can diversify and take out better tragets of opportunity and though the TH/SS can go toe to toe with more or less anything, tacticals cover it more efficiently with their wargear and ranged capacity

[breng77]

The problem with how you want to analyze is that there are too many variables. Are we playing one on one 5 tactcals against 5 TH/SS termies with no other units? Otherwise maybe you are not shooting the TH/SS because there are other threats on the table. Maybe I shoot the tacticals with a vindicator shell while I am running my TH/SS termies toward them. Maybe I deepstruck my TH/SS termies close to you and you are only getting one round of shooting before I charge/get charged (this is possible and then we are comparing 230 points of Tactical Termies to 200 points of TH/SS termies or should I just go straight storm bolters with no upgrades so the points are fair.) If you are going with 10 Tactical Termies vs. 5 Th/SS and a Land raider (of some sort) then you need to factor in Damage done by the LR. (which could well be several termies by the time it hits.

 

If I traded TH/SS termies in for the tactical termies in the scenario where the get charged, the squad that gets charged kills 1 terminator and loses 2 (2.08), In stead of losing 3 (3.47). So in the end they perform 1.5 times better against other TH/SS termies.

 

Again I don't think that tacticals are bad. You just cannot argue that they are as good (in general) at their purpose, for their points, as TH/SS termies.

[Bartali]

I see what you are saying as far as the stormbolters, and I used to have this mindset. I felt that if I wasn't using the storm bolters I wasn't getting the best use out of the squad. But I urge you to think about it differently. Do you get upset when your T-hammer terminators take 2+ saves? I mean, they aren't using their stormshields that they are paying points for, right? Same goes for the storm bolters... if you can use them great, but don't let that define the unit. Here's how I look at the weapons and try to get the most use out of it:

 

1- Missiles: This is the easiest to use as they are good against many targets and have the longest range. I always want to fire missiles.

2- Powerfists: This is the next best strength of the unit. It comes on a 2+ save body, and this is the second ability I try to maximise

3- Stormbolters: These are included in the unit, but aren't the part that you need to maximise. As you say, lots of bolters in the rest of the army. This is a bonus when it helps.

 

 

Oh yeah, and I forgot to point out that Tactical Termies can very easily get a 4++ cover save in most battles. Combination of terrain, vehicles, and other troops in your armie means that from enemy shooting you really will have 2+/4++ versus 2+/3++... I can't believe I forgot to point that out so long, but it just came to me again when thinking through a recent battle. My Tactical Termies are usually one of the last combat capable units on the table, and the main complaint has been resiliency, so I was trying to figure out why I haven't experienced that as a problem. Anyway, hopefully some of this rambling post is a little help.

 

-Myst

 

A clarifier to start with. I'm a Deathwing player who gets his terminators to do all sort of things - in effect they're the ultimate tactical terminators. Want a TH/SS Terminator with a CML on top ? No problem ! Shame we only get the scraps from the SM armoury though :rolleyes:

 

I have to get my Terminators and Land Raider Crusaders to do everything because of the limitations I've placed on myself for the list. If you're playing from the Space Marine codex then mostly you don't limit yourself in this way - you're normally free to choose from any unit in the codex. You pick a unit to fulfill a primary role, and with the way the 5th edition codicies have been written, it's a good bet they'll have a secondary role too.

 

Tactical terminators are picked primarily to fill an anti-infantry shooting hole in a list. It also happens that they have good secondary roles (via CMLs), and even have a tertiary role - they're semi-decent in cc as long as you're not fighting horde or anyone with power weapons.

[Mysticaria]

Again I don't think that tacticals are bad. You just cannot argue that they are as good (in general) at their purpose, for their points, as TH/SS termies.

Yes I can.

 

I just can't argue that they are as good at T-hammers' purpose as T-hammers are. I think that's where people are getting confused. T-hammers are designed for one thing, and they do it best. Nobody is arguing that. But Tactical Terminators are in fact NEARLY as good at that purpose as T-hammers AND they are really good at other things too. That combination of really high threat levels in multiple areas of the game is invaluable. No other unit is able to excel in all phases of the game like Tactical Terminators. That makes them really good at their purpose, and for a lot of people this is worth a lot.

 

Again, T-hammers are really good. But that doesn't make Tactical Termies bad. All I ask is for people to really take a serious look and decide for themselves.

 

Just to clear the air, I really like assault terminators. However, I do get bothered when everyone discounts Tactical Terminators so easily when I can really find no reason for it. I've never posted an army list on here, but my 2,000 point GT army has both Tactical Terminators (10 w/2CML) and Assault Terminators (5 in LRC) in it. When I drop down to 1500 I usually take out the Tactical Terminators first (since it's 465 points) and change an HQ choice (save 35 points) so I only lose 1 unit going from 2,000 to 1,500. Just didn't want everyone to think I'm some kind of Tactical Terminator crusader or anything.

 

Tactical terminators are picked primarily to fill an anti-infantry shooting hole in a list. It also happens that they have good secondary roles (via CMLs), and even have a tertiary role - they're semi-decent in cc as long as you're not fighting horde or anyone with power weapons.

This kind of thing kills me. Why are Tactical Terminators "semi-decent" in "tertiary role" of close combat when I just showed they have very similar damage output as TH/SS terminators? Why would the same number of S8 power weapon attacks on a 2+ body be "semi-decent" when the guy carrying a shield has them it's awesome. At the end of the day it's the same number of S8 power weapon attacks. Against horde its exactly the same, and when against power weapons it's slightly worse (but hopefully mitigated by having the option to shoot). This is exactly the kind of blanket attitude statement that has no real basis in the unit stats, and I don't mean to pick on you, but I've seen similar comments in nearly all the Terminator Threads. I urge people, really think about what the units are, and what they aren't, don't just assume something because you've heard it a bunch.

 

-Myst

[Bartali]

Tactical terminators are picked primarily to fill an anti-infantry shooting hole in a list. It also happens that they have good secondary roles (via CMLs), and even have a tertiary role - they're semi-decent in cc as long as you're not fighting horde or anyone with power weapons.

This kind of thing kills me. Why are Tactical Terminators "semi-decent" in "tertiary role" of close combat when I just showed they have very similar damage output as TH/SS terminators? Why would the same number of S8 power weapon attacks on a 2+ body be "semi-decent" when the guy carrying a shield has them it's awesome. At the end of the day it's the same number of S8 power weapon attacks. Against horde its exactly the same, and when against power weapons it's slightly worse (but hopefully mitigated by having the option to shoot). This is exactly the kind of blanket attitude statement that has no real basis in the unit stats, and I don't mean to pick on you, but I've seen similar comments in nearly all the Terminator Threads. I urge people, really think about what the units are, and what they aren't, don't just assume something because you've heard it a bunch.

 

-Myst

 

As I posted previously, i'm a Deathwing player who exclusively uses Tactical Terminators. I'm not assuming anything because I've heard it :P

 

Tactical terminators will fold against dedicated CC units, units with power weapons, MCs and horde (although TH/SS aren't any better in this regard either). It's got nothing to do with having the same number of S8 attacks as TH/SS terminators, it's about surviving to strike back at I1.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Then I think we all agree here. Both units have their uses and are better than each other in different ways (as you'd expect from 2 different units)

 

Assault Terminators are assault based, they are more survivable with their TH/SS configuration and can fight a huge range of things in melee, plus their thunder hammers make them very efficient agaist foes that are going to be tough in CC, something that tacticals cannot do as well in such situations

 

Tactical Terminators are generalists with a great shooting capacity, vehicle busting power and reasonably formidable CC, however they can't QUITE endure as much as the assault terminators, but can turn their hands more reasonably to different situations

 

 

Both have their merits and NEITHER IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER. Largely it depends on the army set up, the way you play and the enemies you face as with all units. Both have a leg up over each other in different situations, but both are solid enough to engage and threaten a large number of things on the board without too much trouble, things they do fear will probably be the same for both of them (although TH/SS may have a slightly better time of it in a land raider and with storm shields). They are both good units!

[LardO'Blood]

Then I think we all agree here. Both units have their uses and are better than each other in different ways (as you'd expect from 2 different units)

 

Assault Terminators are assault based, they are more survivable with their TH/SS configuration and can fight a huge range of things in melee, plus their thunder hammers make them very efficient agaist foes that are going to be tough in CC, something that tacticals cannot do as well in such situations

 

Tactical Terminators are generalists with a great shooting capacity, vehicle busting power and reasonably formidable CC, however they can't QUITE endure as much as the assault terminators, but can turn their hands more reasonably to different situations

 

 

Both have their merits and NEITHER IS BETTER THAN THE OTHER. Largely it depends on the army set up, the way you play and the enemies you face as with all units. Both have a leg up over each other in different situations, but both are solid enough to engage and threaten a large number of things on the board without too much trouble, things they do fear will probably be the same for both of them (although TH/SS may have a slightly better time of it in a land raider and with storm shields). They are both good units!

 

Like I said in one of the first posts:

It is completely stylistic, try both.

[Wildfire]

Well, better is a matter of opinion. I like assault termies are better, and here's my reasoning.

 

My big problem is that termies (of both flavors) are really most dangerous in CC. Yes, tactical termies can shoot, but not well enough to be worth their cost. It's assault where tactical termies are going to do the most damage. However, tactical termies die twice as fast to AP2/power weapons as assault termies. This is a big problem when you've got such a small unit. If you would normally inflict 2 unsaved AP2/power weapon wounds on assault termies, then tactical termies would take 4 unsaved AP2/power weapon wounds. That makes a BIG difference, going from 6 available attacks in a unit to 2.

 

Further, assault termies and tactical termies have very different targets. Assault termies can take on elite assaulters and still give a good accounting of themselves. Tactical termies are much more likely to fold under an assault of elite CC troops (i.e. those with lots of power weapons). I've got other units that can handle themselves in combat against non-elite CC troops, so assault termies fill a niche that very few other units in an SM army can.

[waaanial00]

Well, better is a matter of opinion.

 

Thus the doom of asking questions without being specific. I have to say that I hate TH/SS terminators and like Tactical Terminators, the times I have taken them Lady Luck seems to smile on the Tactical ones and frown on my TH/SS ones (ones being the result of armour saves).

 

There is just too much opinion on the matter that its really down to trying them out yourself and seeing how they fit into your playing style and army list.

 

I like to contribute in every phase of the game and TH/SS terminators just dont contribute over the whole game, they are the skulking threat of death which promise so much destruction but ultimately contribute actively in a couple of turns. Whether thats enough to include them, because when things go right they are damn good, is up to you. Tactical terminators are generally contributing from turn 1 till death, whether they do enough before death again is something you will need to try out for yourself.