Comparison - Longfangs vrs. Chaos Havocs

[Longfang_Vigour]

Hello fellow brothers of the fang.

 

I have been a collector of GW models for over ten years now. The only army I've been able to field was my Necron army. Having painted that in a progression campaign. So, Here I am with nearly $800 in space marine boxes and bits and I am trying to decide if I want to build a Space Wolf or Chaos Marine army. They both have distinct advantages, personalities, and play styles.

 

This will be the first of my articles on the comparison between two units that I feel can dominate the battle fields if played correctly.

 

First, lets go into how I would play said heavy support choices.

 

Long Fangs - Their clear role to me is to sit back and rain death from above like a closing jaw of doom. I would use them in the classical role of any heavy support marine on foot. Find a nice defensible position and let the rain being.

 

Chaos Havocs - I see these guys in more of a support role than the Long Fangs. If set up correctly these guys can be brutal! While they cannot access the sheer amount of fire power that the Long Fangs can unleash, their support comes in the form of being able to jump out of a rhino, throw 4(5) melta shots at a target to soften them up and wait for you to charge into their chain-swords or shoot you again next turn and charge you.

 

 

Second, lets see how I would build each unit.

 

-= Long Fangs =-

 

333pts.

 

Wolf Guard 78

Terminator Armor

Cyclone Missile Launcher

Combi-Melta

Power Fist

 

Squad Leader 40

Power Fist

 

Long Fangs x5 140

Missile Launcher x4

Lascannon

 

Razorback 75

TL-Lascannon

 

 

 

-= Chaos Havocs =-

 

335pts.

 

Aspiring Champion 95

Combi-Melta

Power Fist

Icon of Khorne

 

Chaos Havocs x9 175

Melta Gunx4

 

Chaos Rhino 65

Extra Armor

Havoc Launcher

 

 

Third, comparison time.

 

Long Fangs - As I said earlier, if I end up going with Space Wolves I will have the majority of my Long Fang units set up very close to this(minor variations in the Wolf Guard, and yes I would use up my elite spots with wolf guards to make sure I had three guards with CMLs). As it stands the pack has the following:

 

6 str 8 shots at 48' or 6 str 4 blast shots at 48'

2 str 9 shots at 48'

 

(when assaulted or assaulting)

6 Power Fist attacks

10 normal cc attacks

 

Not to bad IMHO. Ideal for shooting your enemy from a distance.. go figure lol! If I fielded these guys this is how I would set them all up.

 

 

Chaos Havocs - These guys are completely ready to smash face whether or not they are charged. Its funny that I don't hear people ranting about this unit being completely OP. Here is why...

 

4(5) melta shots

5 bolt pistol shots

 

Not to shooty. But they are meant to destroy armor, and do it in one turn. But these boys just shine like a daemon prince in combat.

 

(if assaulting)

5 Power Fist attacks

36 normal cc attacks

 

(if assaulted)

4 Power Fist attacks

27 normal cc attacks

 

These boys have been around and they apparently know when to sling their heavy weapons and draw their pistols and ccws. How does this work? Simple. Chaos Havocs come standard with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW. When they select a special/heavy weapon they replace their bolter not their bolt pistols(why all marines don't do this.. I'll never understand..).

 

 

 

 

In summary, both of these units are extremely viable and powerful in their own aspects. The Long Fangs would be teamed up with a good number of wolf guard on motorcycles and small packs of Grey Hunters in kill teams with their Razorbacks. The entire army would be completely mobile except the Long Fangs which are hoping something is foolish enough to charge them. The Chaos Havocs on the other hand are out on the field looking for trouble. They and the rest of the army which would consist of Khorne Berserkers and two more squads of the melta brigade would be spearheading an assault, with smoke bombs, into the heart of the enemy while the rhinos fire off their Havoc Launchers. I would be fielding Khârn and most likely another lord with the khornate daemon sword. I know I will eventually want to build both armies but I am trying to decide which to start with. These are just some of the things going through my mind when I'm building lists and trying to figure out which army I want to play. If anyone has played either of these I would appreciate feedback. If I've left something out or not seen something.. please let me know!

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Longfang_Vigour

[CainTheHunter]

I like Your idea of LF composition. However, I'd never field Your proposed list for the following reasons.

The Wolf Guard with Cyclone.is and expensive upgrade per se. The rule of thumb would be to keep him as cheap as possible, namely, giving him just CML on top of what he has already - he comes with storm bolter and power weapon. You are giving him power fist and combi-melta. The use of PF is debatable and situational, but combi-melta is over the top. According to the rules he can shoot both storm-bolter and cyclone, but no such FAQ exists about combi-weapons - partially because Space Wolves are the only codex which allows such composition due to their extreme versatility.

As for their pack leader, he is sort of ablative wound, meant to die first. His role is a bit different when the Cyclone guard is present with his two rocket shots, since You could still trade him for one of the rocket launcher guys and keep the split-fire option. But I still would never buy him such an expensive upgrade as the fist. In general, 6 long fangs and wolf guard should be able to repel anything that charges them except for MC or tooled up infiltrators. They will respond with (let's asume they pass the Ld 9 for counter-charge) 13 normal attacks and 3 power weapon attacks. Of course, that's not enough to kill a dedicated unit, but in case of dedicated unit, I believe the 5 attacks from fists at I 1 may have no chance to come out at all.

[narf]

the PF attacks are incorrect for both units.

 

WG gets 2 base, +1 on charge/counter only, LF leader gets 1 attack/counter, +1 on charge only - total 3-5

 

Chaos Champion gets 2 base, +1 khorne, +1 on charge ONLY 3-4 total

 

Also the havocs themselves only have base 1+ 1(2 ccw) + 1 charge only, meaning 9 of these have between 18 + 27 attacks

 

The LF have 1 +1 on charge counter charge so between 5-10 attacks

 

Also the LF have the option of split fire so thats two targets.

 

The havocs have more bodies to burn, and can take assault weapons, but need to be closer to be effective if you use them in this way.

 

The long fangs are long range, but have split fire and the razorback allows you to pick a 3rd target for one choice.

 

Chaos chosen are more effective than havocs between chosen and havocs used for assault weaponry, LF are more effective that havocs if used for long range.

[Wysten]

Compared them to long fangs? Peh, they are not that much better then Grey Hunters! XD

 

In all seriousness, I would not pay that much for something Grey Hunters can do easily enough themselves. Chaos is a seriously disadvantaged codex that has had much of it's teeth ripped out (we lost our charms, they lost most of their unique charm and got spilt in two and is forced to play a single build to have a balienced list). Space Wolves is a solid all round codex that is built so you can make all sorts of solid builds out of it.

[Hear da Lamentation]

I would also definitely not use Wolf Guard on bikes as a unit. They are WAY too expensive. The normal Swiftclaws are much better bang for your buck.

[Wysten]

Indeed, wolfguard are 53 points bare on a bike, which is more then a terminator or a Thunder Wolf for essencally a space marine biker. Thats not even beggining to go into how much more it would cost to equip them with decent armiments. Needless to say it makes Loganwing look like Green (or Grey?) Tide orks.

 

 

Also, Long Fangs are not really about killing armour though it can do that. Suppression fire, stunning it, shaking it, blasting weapons off and generally making the run up easier, is what they do.

[Longfang_Vigour]

@narf - Pg 42 of the BRB - Pistols count as a normal CCW. There fore the Chaos Havocs have two CCWs and the aspiring champion has a special ccw and a normal ccw. So, they all get an extra attack. Havoc Attacks - 1(base), 1(2ccws), 1(Icon), 1(charge). I don't think I need to continue with this. I have gone through this with multiple people and the rules for Havocs are consistently over looked. They are a meat grinder.

 

 

@CainTheHunter - Well, even with taking the barebones squad leader and the minimum on the WG I am left with very little to protect a still very expensive support unit. Now, I could leave another unit back with the Long Fangs to help protect them, or I can invest another 60-70 points into giving the unit a bit more bite. Granted, the PF on the WG might be over-kill. I could see dropping that back down to the power weapon to hable MEQ. But I don't want to rely on just a melta bomb to handle any MCs or Dreads that happen to find that they can charge the Long Fangs for easy VPs.

 

@Wysten - Of course I compared them with longfangs. They both fill the same spot in the chart. I can also throw Missile Launchers into the Havocs, however this will diminish their main ability to assault after firing. I'm not sure if I mentioned in it my original post, but I plan on running my Space Wolves as a defensive/shooty army with a strong counter charge. Which is why I was going for the bikes. However, skyclaws would work just as well. I was more concerned about the +1T that the bikers get. But I have to agree that swiftclaws are better than WGs on bikes. I'll look into it on my lunch today.

 

@Hear da Lamentation - To be honest. I was planning on building a SW list that sat back and fired. When things got close enough to assault then I would break out the wolf bikers, and yes swift claws might be a better option for this with their ability to get an additional cc attack. I might not run three units of Long Fangs either. Maybe toss in a vindi or two or a predator. Not quite sure yet. But this was mainly a comparison of the two builds I would use for one, or more, of my heavy support units.

 

Anyone else?

[Wysten]

Problem is with Havoks is that they contest with Oblivators, but also that a lot is being paid for an heavy slot that plays essencally like a large, rather subpar Grey Hunter unit. A full Rhino pack may only have 2 meltas (often one being a combi) they also do the anti troop aspect really well. Considering most tanks cost under 100 points, those meltas may only fire once then get tied up for the rest of the game by harder combat units. It's a unit trying to be a close combat unit, but it will only break even vs another good troops choice (Space Wolf Grey Hunters mostly cost 1/3 less, but does anti tank decently enough and is more potent in recieving the melee due to counter charge, the ability to potentcially reroll 1's for one turn when expecting the charge. For a unit thats 100 or more points cheaper, it does not matter whether they win or lose, Havoks are not doing the job that they need to be doing and that can be a serious problem if they are not suppressing their fire.)

 

Long Fangs meanwhile don't really need to worry about this, they are a long ranged unit that can hammer out shots for pretty cheap and provided their tanks are hindered/they are popping tranports. While they can fight in melee, they won't be fighting in melee often enough to justify two fists. If they are deepstriking, then you can keep your boys back, if they are getting in assualt range otherwise, then chances are they have had several turns shooting anyways and have done their job well. Just remember that the points for two fists and a termie can pretty much make another squad of long fangs that can double shooting.

 

 

If it's mobility you want, considered Land Speeder Tornados in a full mech wolf list? Thunder Wolf are also very counter strikely like swift claws.

[Longfang_Vigour]

Problem is with Havoks is that they contest with Oblivators, but also that a lot is being paid for an heavy slot that plays essencally like a large, rather subpar Grey Hunter unit.

 

Havocs only contest with Oblivators if you want long range anti-tank from your heavy support. If I run a CM army it will be focused on getting in your face and dishing out the damage. Also, how many units do you think could survive that Havoc setup? Not many. Considering that I'll also have other units around them for multiple charges such as Berserkers.

 

As to the second part of this. I looked at Grey Hunters. They are the same price as Havocs or CSMs. CSM have to pay an additional 15 for their squad leader which gives them 10ld instead of 8. Grey Hunters can tank a razor back, the Havocs cannot. Grey Hunters can control vps, Havocs cannot. Havocs are the unit that surprises people. Sure they are heavy support, but they are shock troops.

 

You also mention that they will be stuck in combat. Maybe for a round or two. The sheer number of attacks they can unleash is astounding for the fact that they are a heavy support option.

 

Now, I know this appears that I am siding with Chaos awfully hard here. But I am looking for sound advice. If you lads were drowning the Long Fangs I would be supporting them as well. They are both outstanding units. And I only brought this here to see if any of you wolves can point out things about the Long Fangs that I missed or things about the Havocs that I missed.

 

Thanks again for the replies!

 

Keep them coming please!

[Wildfire]

Best thing about Havocs is that they can take 4 special weapons, instead of 4 heavy weapons. There are better choices to mount long-range weapons on for Chaos. The short-range firefight is where Havocs excel. 10 Havocs with 4 plasma guns and a power fist is a nasty thing to have jumping out of a Rhino within rapid-fire range. If chaos ever gets drop pods, watch out!

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Comparing a midfield unit and a backfield unit doesn't work, imo. They have different roles. In different armies. Would you compare Fire Dragons with Broadsides? :)

 

Secondly, Fangs shine by spamming ML for cheap. The leader contributes little with a PF. The Las cannon is expensive for s9. You've almost paid for a Wolf Guard without it.

Your WG is 73 points. That is almost three ML Fangs that you could have.

 

The Fangs do not need a Razor. The Havocs must have a Rhino.

 

You'd have 8 & 4 men Wolf Guard packs just for the CMLs? Unless you are paying a very high points game, that is not necessary.

 

A more likely scenario is this:

 

2 Fang Packs. - 316

5 ML, Leader, Wolf Guard

 

10 missiles at 4 targets. Yes please.

 

or 3 Fangs packs - 345

4ML, Leader

 

12 missiles at 6 targets *faint*

 

Hopefully you can see these bring more bang-for-buck than what you were suggesting. This build is 1/4 of the reason why Wolves are the full cowabunga :) . Forget Chaos, bro. At least until their next Dex comes out :)

[Vorion]

You really are comparing two very different units. LFs are about range, they will sit back and take apart a transport or two every turn letting your GH squads rip them apart

 

Your Havocs are going to need to get up close to take their shots and spamming four melta shots into one unit? unless you are going to be facing a huge number of terminator heavy armies you wont need that many shots in one squad. You also are at a huge disadvantage with only meltas if you really want them to function as a CC unit. Four shots isnt enough to make a big dent in a lot of units.

 

I have GH squads with two meltas that can pop pretty much anything in one round of shooting. Then they can hit another unit or two in the same game AND claim objectives. With GHs you can do more than Havocs.

 

LFs can still destroy that target you were after with your Havocs AND shoot another unit in the same turn, a LF squad with MLs gives you more flexability in what you're using your shots on. If you run into an Ork hord army with no transports and waves of 20 man boyz squads screening their nobz your havocs are going to get chopped to bits while ML spamming would tear that 20 man squad apart

 

So yeah your Havocs are going to be an awsome one his squad, but LF are all around better

[Plague Dave]

As a Chaos player just getting into Space Wolves, I feel I have some more to add here.

 

First off, Chaos players don't use Havocs. The things you've pointed out about Havocs are true (nice amount of attacks, nice amount of melta shots), but those things are just as true of units that do it better than Havocs. Plus, our Heavy slots are way better off in the hands of Oblits and/or Defilers.

 

Consider the attacks, though. Firstly, you are incorrect about the number of PF attacks, as Narf pointed out. Fists don't allow you to have the benefit of a second ccw attack (unless it's from another PF). See the second paragraph from the bottom in the right-hand column on page 42. So, you'd have 3 attacks when charged, and 4 on the charge (if you had a Khorne Icon). You are right with the troops, though. It seems Narf overlooked the Icon conferring its bonus to them.

 

But basic CSM have the same number of attacks set up this way (with a Khorne Icon). You get no extra benefit with the Havocs. Sure, you have two more melta shots, but our vanilla troops are best equipped with melta anyways. Unless you're running all non-Plague Marine cult troops, then you're not getting much extra out of Havocs. They amount to more of the same without scoring potential.

 

The list you propose is also quite expensive. Three of those Havoc squads, three basic units of Berserkers, Khârn, and a Khorne Daemon Prince (better and cheaper than a similar Lord) is already over 2000 pts (2039 with how I was looking at it), and you're only getting 3 troop options here. Chaos prefers 4 at 2000.

 

Now, let's consider the melta shots. Let's say you are running an all Berserker army, and need to get your melta spam elsewhere. Chosen do it better. Not only does this free up Heavy slots for our superior options (again, Oblits and Defilers), but they can be run much cheaper, and give you more tactical options for their deployment.

 

I'd run 8 Chosen with x4 meltas in a Rhino with a combi-melta. To keep it cheap, I'd put IoCG on them, but if you're all Khorne, then an IoK works as well. Now, while there's no Champ or PF here (plenty of those with your troops), you're getting lots of melta action for about 75 points cheaper than your Havoc set-up. Their primary goal should be running and gunning in any case. They could support a combat if necessary, but your Berserkers fulfill that as a primary role more than adequately.

 

As far as deployment, you can infiltrate these guys if you're going first, rush up in their Rhino, disembark, and destroy two tanks rather easily. Your Havocs may not always have the range for such a maneuver. Keeping them in reserve, and Outflanking in later turns can also be an excellent choice if your opponent isn't really running a lot of transports, or tanks at all.

 

Now you could look at a list with two such squads, 4 (!) Berserker squads, your two HQs, and a pair of Oblits, and you're still not quite at 2000 (comes in at 1945). So maybe you get some Havoc Launchers, or combis on your Berserkers' Rhinos*. This is a much stronger, cheaper list.

 

The basic concepts of yours are certainly sound. Chaos is good for melee, and melta spam, that's for sure. It's just that Havocs themselves are redundant given our other options. Sadly, this is true of quite a few things in the current Chaos codex. Hopefully this gives you some things to consider, though.

 

 

* As a minor note: Extra Armor on Rhinos is generally not necessary, so I haven't included it in my alternate list

[marine77]

I tend to agree with much of what is said here. If you are going to play with long fangs, you want to get as many of them as possible and keep them as cheap as possible. If you want to add additional weapons (i.e. 3x missiles and 2x lascannon) or some other loadout go for it, but the aim for long fangs should be to focus on maximizing the ranged attack while keeping the unit cheap.

 

Havocs on the other hand aren't terrible, but they aren't as competitive for the spots they take up. Oblits are great for their ability to soak fire with their armor and invul save while being to dish out whichever heavy weapon you need during the round. If I were to take a unit or two of havocs, I would go for cheap min sized units toting autocannons. I would then use these exclusively for targetting and popping AV11-12 transports.