Aggressive tactics against Nids

[Badaboom]

Hi Brothers!

 

My friends has finally started to use his Nids in combat and we already have played a test game against my Imperial Fists. It was a good game, but I mostly used a marine gunline with Speeders and Attack Bikes as fast support, which were absolutely awesome.

 

The thing is that, used to my Dark Elves in WHFB, I tend to take the battle to the enemy and get close and personal whenever I can. I have a new game against my friend next Saturday, 2000 points, scenario yet to be decided; how would you play aggressively against Nids with vanilla marines?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Honestly, I wouldnt play aggresively in terms of Combat; aggressive application of shooting is the way to go against Tyranids I feel.

 

Yes, you want to pack a punch in combat to bring down big nasties but you'll win the war in the category of "Things That Go *Boom* At Range".

 

Target priority and zealous application of firepower are your friends in this regard.

[Badaboom]

That´s ok, I know it would be pretty much foolish to try to best Nids in CC; I was thinking about a mechanized advanced with a my Redeemer loaded with an assault unit, supported by a squadron of typhoons and one of MM attack bikes, followed by two rhinos or razorbacks carrying Tac marines. The rest of the points would be probably spent on Sternguard, Devs, or something like that.

 

I have yet to try the following:

 

Assault Termies

Tactical Termies

Command Squad

Assault Squad

Scouts

Dreadnoughts

 

Advices on that?

[Brother Nihm]

Honestly, I wouldnt play aggresively in terms of Combat

I would against some units and with Rhinos in general (given the nature of CSM). Take a blob of Termagants for instance, no save (note: can get FNP from the Tervigon), and most importantly, fearless. Heck, I've seen Tervigons killed off from No Retreat wounds often enough.

 

Seeing as you're using Speeders Bada, take note of which units are outside of Synapse range, and what type of instinctual behaviour they have, if it is FEED - feel free to have them merrily chase your speeders around. If he has few Synapse creatures, punish him for it by removing them early. You will still lose units but the Mission Objectives could very well just be that much easier for you to accomplish given his lack of control.

 

Also, 'Nids don't have reliable anti-tank outside of Hive Guard and adrenal gland'ed Trygons (which can be shot down on the way in), use that to your advantage by removing his Anti-Tank early on.

Then later, make them assault your Rhinos, if lucky kill the Rhinos, and if not multi-assaulted; have your now disembarked squads rapid fire + charge them in the next turn.

 

 

PS. I play aggressively against 'Nids given that I'm a CSM player, but the general principles apply to loyalists as well. ;)

[Badaboom]

I should probably mention that, although I have no clue about what is he going to field next time, his list last game consisted on:

 

2 X 3 warriors

1 X 3 winged warriors

2 X 10 Genestealers

1 X 3 Mantifex

1 Zoanthrope

1 Carnifex

1 Mawloc

1Trygon

1 Hive Tyrant+2 guards

1 Tyranid Prime

 

Perhaps I´m forgetting something, but I think it was about that. No ranged attacks but the Zoanthrope powers (my friend wants a pure Alien army).

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Honestly, I wouldnt play aggresively in terms of Combat

I would against some units..

 

Whilst I love the imagery of swashbuckling chainswords in CC, I have this thing about being a gunline/general firepower-whore.

[Tanhausen]

Getting into CC with Genestealers or mantifex is a BAD idea...but you probably already know that ;)

 

Warriors are tough and multiwound... but instant death si your friend :P

 

Dealing with the 5 MC might be a bit harder... pray que doesn't take the lash for his prime :P

 

As suggested, agressive deployment/movement/shooting is fine... but if you get down to CC, you'll probably end up overrun.

 

As a DW player, terminators... they take a lot of punishment, but they're not inmortal and due to low numbers tend hit very hard but not too much. I'd suggest getting lightning claws to get good initiative attacks and re-rolling to wound.

 

And the Carnifex...do not allow him to assault!

[Badaboom]

I am considering the use of two units of assault termies (perhaps just one splitted into combat squads) with a mix of TH/SS and LC but, what about Dreads? Do you think they do have some uses against Tyranids, other than as heavy weapons platform?

[Tanhausen]

Warning: this is not the dread discussion thread. Search a couple of topics below for that

 

In my experience, Dreads work well as shooters and poorly as CC unless for tarpitting roles or very specific setups (Furioso and similar).

 

As for terminators loadout... DW can mix and match and I usually take Sargent with power weapon/Storm bolter, Heavy weapon, Chainfist, Claws, TH/SS.

 

I do this because all of my squads need to be flexible, but if you can, I'd load up a LRC with claws and heavy flamer and have them deal with swarms (if possible multiple assault small nids and force No retreat wounds on the MC).

 

Hammenators are quite survivable by themselves with the 2+/3++ and I'd footslog them with a CML and go for his warriors.

 

Again, if possible, keep them 6-8 models strong.

 

Terminators are expensive, but if you get them to swing at their enemies... quite a punishment.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Trouble is, Termies can be quite easily bogged down in combat by numerically superior swarm-style units.

[Tanhausen]

(not taking into account +1A for assaults and asuming all get to hit)

 

5 claws terminators... 15 attacks...3+/3+ rr...over 8 wounds.

 

If 30 gaunts attacks... not even 1 wound.

 

Since they are fearless because they are in synapse, the remaining 22 take 7 wounds...another 5 wounds, down to 17.

 

Done alone, this is a no brainer (terminators are MUCH more expensive) but if you catch a MC... :woot:

 

In the worst case, you will probably need something like 2 turns to deal with the mob.

[Meatman]

Assault marines with 2 flamers and a hammer/fist. Backed by tact squads with flamers and combi-flamers. All backed up by terminators or dreads.

 

Use the fast flamers to cook little bugs, termies or dreads for the bigger ones.

[Brother Nihm]

Getting into CC with Genestealers or mantifex is a BAD idea...but you probably already know that :)

Unless you start in cover! :)

[Tanhausen]

Nihm, don't feel like doing the math now but... 10 marines vs say 10 genes... even if they hit first...mince meat!

[breng77]

Gaunts vs LC termies depends on a few things. First do the gaunts have upgrades (poison, Furious Charge). These make them much more effective. Second Do you get the charge. Assuming the Gaunts are upgraded by a tervigon (cause they should be) and all get to hit

 

If the Claw termis get the charge. The termies deal 12 wounds at I 4. Killing 12 Gaunts. The gaunts kill one termi. Gaunts lose Combat by 11. With FNP they lose 4 more gaunts, if they lack FNP they lose 9 more. Leaving 5 termies and either 14 (FNP) or 9 Gaunts. The Gaunts then lose the next round Handily.

 

If the Gaunts get the charge they go at I 5 Deal 22 wounds and kill 3-4 termies (more likely 4) One termi strikes back Likely killing 2 gaunts. He loses combat by 2. he either takes 2 saves, or makes LD at 7. The gaunts win in round 2.

[Badaboom]

Knowing my friend´s army, I do not expect big blobs of troops. As you may see in one of my previous posts, his army is more about "elite" bugs, which tend be synaptic or independent at all, with few exceptions.

 

According to what happened last time, the typhoon speeders and MM attack bikes worked wonders at vaporizing some of the big bugs. I also used two 5 men Dev squads loaded out with HB and missile launchers (3 Hb in one, 3 missile launchers in the other). The plasma cannons in the Tac squads were completely useless (mainly due to bad LOS) so I´m considering changing them for either lasscannons or MM.

 

In my mind, slogging tactical combat squads supported by Sternguard/Termis/dreadnoughts and some vehicles for fast back up might work well, what do you think?

[Tanhausen]

If you play anihilation... meh. The other 2, he's gonna stomp you.

 

MC by themselves are easy to handle... but if he bunches up (which he should), the tacticals are not going to hold vs the warriors and the MC will chew your "countercharge" units.

 

If fire rate worked for you, keep it coming! Problem will be when he learns what breng77 said (Tervigon+gaunts+FnP) to bog you down or outflanking genes or Ymargl (sp?).

 

Anything short of hammenators... I'd say you need to be a SW... specifically a GH with wulfen in order to deal some pain to big/MC nids.

 

I try and deal with T5 or less with hurricane bolters (LRC) and T6+ with Assault Cannons, CML, LC, ML and basically anything with S8+ that doesn't need to target a transport.

 

Keep away from lashes and if forced to CC, gain the assault.

[breng77]

Nihm, don't feel like doing the math now but... 10 marines vs say 10 genes... even if they hit first...mince meat!

 

Stock marines in cover against stealers.

 

Marines hit first and Kill 2 stealers. Stealers Hit back and kill 3 Marines. So it comes down to do the marines make LD or run at LD 8. Round 2 goes to the Stealers as they will hit first. This also assumes that the stealers are not upgraded (space marine CC upgrades won't make much of a difference.) Upgraded stealers will kill about 6 marines.

[Mysticaria]

If the Gaunts get the charge they go at I 5 Deal 22 wounds and kill 3-4 termies (more likely 4) One termi strikes back Likely killing 2 gaunts. He loses combat by 2. he either takes 2 saves, or makes LD at 7. The gaunts win in round 2.

 

This is the problem with trying to go close combat against Nids. This scenario is very easy for the nid player to pull off.... and doesn't even involve any of their close combat units. If any of the real close combat units get to assault it will get bad for terminators. Most likely, the gaunts will just tarpit the termies for a turn or two and they'll get assaulted by something else without even getting to swing back at them

 

This scenario is even worse for hammernators unfortunately. They just simply can't kill enough gaunts and if they get caught they are going to be tarpitted until the end of the game.

 

Best bet is aggressive shooting, aggressive manuever, and knowing how to engage his units so they aren't being put in their best positions.

 

-Myst

[Brother Nihm]

Nihm, don't feel like doing the math now but... 10 marines vs say 10 genes... even if they hit first...mince meat!

 

Stock marines in cover against stealers.

 

Marines hit first and Kill 2 stealers. Stealers Hit back and kill 3 Marines. So it comes down to do the marines make LD or run at LD 8. Round 2 goes to the Stealers as they will hit first. This also assumes that the stealers are not upgraded (space marine CC upgrades won't make much of a difference.) Upgraded stealers will kill about 6 marines.

Aye, Tactical Marines are weedy compared to CSM. B)

Fortunately I don't have that issue.

 

At least it's a place to drop any Assault Marines one might field, in cover that is.

[Wildfire]

Depending on what your opponent has, and how they're placed in relation to one another, assualt is sometimes the way to go against 'nids. Any time you can multi-assault a couple of MCs and a lot of little bugs in one big melee, you should. Remember that Ld modifiers are applied to each unit in a combat seperately, not spread throughout. Massacre the small bugs, and watch the big ones die from failed No Retreat wounds.

 

Of course, you don't want to try this with all units. Remember that the key here is winning combat by a lot. Winning by a couple wounds is not going to help you much.

[Ookami_81]

Where did you see that being aggressive implies CC ?

 

Against Tyranids, the outmost aggressively effiscient weapon we've got is a missile launcher, second is autocannon.

Stay in cover, kill big things with kraks and autocannons shells, little things with heavy bolters and blast missiles.

 

I feel very aggressive with nine Typhoons, even a little sorry for the pretty little beasts full of claws and slime... :)

 

Terminate the wounded with boltpistol and chainsword.

 

And of course don't forget to burn everything after you've won. :)

[Zynk Kaladin]

I feel very aggressive with nine Typhoons

 

Tyranids? What Tyranids? ;)

[breng77]

The only issue I see with 9 typhoons is the cost (at least 810 points), for what are very fragile units. Tyranid Hive Guard will eat Typhoons if they are close enough (which depending on terrain could be a problem).

[Captain Juan Juarez]

The only issue I see with 9 typhoons is the cost (at least 810 points)...

 

And the need to play

as you move them!