Aggressive tactics against Nids

[breng77]

Well yeah there is that ...though I like that song so I don't usually think of it as a problem.

[Badaboom]

Hi folks!

 

I played yesterday evening a friendly 2000 pts game against my friend using the first Tyranid scenario in the mission book: first contact. As many of you probably know, deployment is absolutely random in that scenario for both armies, and Nids get to play always first. Reserves for the other player (me) are not allowed.

 

Well, as a result, there were two huge melees of Marines smashing bugs in CC and being killed squad after squad, as most of my units ended up in the center of the board and the Swarm jumped on my Fists on turn 2. I was forced to willingly enter CC with Tactical squads and, hey, they managed to kill a Tyrant, a Carnifex and a couple of Genestealer broods! Of course, there was some shooting involved, but one of the Stealers broods and the Fex were new and shiny.

 

Conclusions: Marines do surprisingly well against many Nid units in CC, as long as they´re supported and there is not more than one unit per Marine unit in the same combat. This is specially true if they´re able to shoot at least once before charging in. MC are not that nasty as long as there are enough Astartes to protect the Powerfist Sergeant long enough to score some wounds.

 

-Hammernators are made of Win and Awesome against things bigger than Stealers or Gaunts. I won the combat for 18 wounds against a combined assault of 2 Warrior Broods with a Tyranid Prime and some Hormagaunts. Lovely.

 

-Marines are hard as nails, sacrificing a unit or two for a greater good is sometimes worth it (even if it means your 250 pts Sternguard is going to be bug food) and yes, Mantifexes are scary!

 

Too bad Marines do not have options to improve their Initiative beyond 4, other than a Librarian power which only works with himself. Wish Vanilla marines had options to get some special rules without depending on Special Characters like Vulkan or Lysander. They´re great, but what if I just want to play Stubborn Fists without Lysander in my list!?

 

Well, these are my impressions so far. Ah, and the LR Redeemer is great!

[Mysticaria]

-Hammernators are made of Win and Awesome against things bigger than Stealers or Gaunts. I won the combat for 18 wounds against a combined assault of 2 Warrior Broods with a Tyranid Prime and some Hormagaunts. Lovely.

 

Good game.

 

However, that's just bad play if warriors are assaulting T-hammer terminators. Hormogaunts by themselves would have done better and warriors could have gone somewhere else. Sounds like some of the combats were good matchups for the marines, especially this one.

 

-Myst

[Badaboom]

However, that's just bad play if warriors are assaulting T-hammer terminators.

-Myst

 

Oh, Warriors and gaunts were already engaged in combat with a surprisingly resilient unit of Assault Marines, so I disembarked the Hammernators who were inside the Redeemer.

[Corby]

Honestly, I wouldnt play aggresively in terms of Combat

I would against some units and with Rhinos in general (given the nature of CSM). Take a blob of Termagants for instance, no save (note: can get FNP from the Tervigon), and most importantly, fearless. Heck, I've seen Tervigons killed off from No Retreat wounds often enough.

 

Seeing as you're using Speeders Bada, take note of which units are outside of Synapse range, and what type of instinctual behaviour they have, if it is FEED - feel free to have them merrily chase your speeders around. If he has few Synapse creatures, punish him for it by removing them early. You will still lose units but the Mission Objectives could very well just be that much easier for you to accomplish given his lack of control.

 

Also, 'Nids don't have reliable anti-tank outside of Hive Guard and adrenal gland'ed Trygons (which can be shot down on the way in), use that to your advantage by removing his Anti-Tank early on.

Then later, make them assault your Rhinos, if lucky kill the Rhinos, and if not multi-assaulted; have your now disembarked squads rapid fire + charge them in the next turn.

 

 

PS. I play aggressively against 'Nids given that I'm a CSM player, but the general principles apply to loyalists as well. :)

 

 

Forgetting the Tyranofex. two Strength 10 shots at 48" range is nasty even if its nids.

[Brother Nihm]

Honestly, I wouldnt play aggresively in terms of Combat

I would against some units and with Rhinos in general (given the nature of CSM). Take a blob of Termagants for instance, no save (note: can get FNP from the Tervigon), and most importantly, fearless. Heck, I've seen Tervigons killed off from No Retreat wounds often enough.

 

Seeing as you're using Speeders Bada, take note of which units are outside of Synapse range, and what type of instinctual behaviour they have, if it is FEED - feel free to have them merrily chase your speeders around. If he has few Synapse creatures, punish him for it by removing them early. You will still lose units but the Mission Objectives could very well just be that much easier for you to accomplish given his lack of control.

 

Also, 'Nids don't have reliable anti-tank outside of Hive Guard and adrenal gland'ed Trygons (which can be shot down on the way in), use that to your advantage by removing his Anti-Tank early on.

Then later, make them assault your Rhinos, if lucky kill the Rhinos, and if not multi-assaulted; have your now disembarked squads rapid fire + charge them in the next turn.

 

 

PS. I play aggressively against 'Nids given that I'm a CSM player, but the general principles apply to loyalists as well. :devil:

 

 

Forgetting the Tyranofex. two Strength 10 shots at 48" range is nasty even if its nids.

I did not forget it. :D Str 10 and 48" range it may be but, BS 3 and AP 4 makes it decent, not great. Especially considering the final price-tag on the gun+fex + potential upgrades.

It is the only thing they have (outside of a flying MC /w HVC) that can reach out and touch armour and that is a big plus.

 

But,

At around 1500 point levels - 265+ points is a lot for a single model with only 2 str 10 shots. On the upside, you do need to knock off 6 T6 wounds in order to 'silence' it. Pros and cons I guess - but I'd hardly call the T-Fex a reliable or optimal anti-tank choice.

[Corby]

Honestly, I wouldnt play aggresively in terms of Combat

I would against some units and with Rhinos in general (given the nature of CSM). Take a blob of Termagants for instance, no save (note: can get FNP from the Tervigon), and most importantly, fearless. Heck, I've seen Tervigons killed off from No Retreat wounds often enough.

 

Seeing as you're using Speeders Bada, take note of which units are outside of Synapse range, and what type of instinctual behaviour they have, if it is FEED - feel free to have them merrily chase your speeders around. If he has few Synapse creatures, punish him for it by removing them early. You will still lose units but the Mission Objectives could very well just be that much easier for you to accomplish given his lack of control.

 

Also, 'Nids don't have reliable anti-tank outside of Hive Guard and adrenal gland'ed Trygons (which can be shot down on the way in), use that to your advantage by removing his Anti-Tank early on.

Then later, make them assault your Rhinos, if lucky kill the Rhinos, and if not multi-assaulted; have your now disembarked squads rapid fire + charge them in the next turn.

 

 

PS. I play aggressively against 'Nids given that I'm a CSM player, but the general principles apply to loyalists as well. :lol:

 

 

Forgetting the Tyranofex. two Strength 10 shots at 48" range is nasty even if its nids.

I did not forget it. :to: Str 10 and 48" range it may be but, BS 3 and AP 4 makes it decent, not great. Especially considering the final price-tag on the gun+fex + potential upgrades.

It is the only thing they have (outside of a flying MC /w HVC) that can reach out and touch armour and that is a big plus.

 

But,

At around 1500 point levels - 265+ points is a lot for a single model with only 2 str 10 shots. On the upside, you do need to knock off 6 T6 wounds in order to 'silence' it. Pros and cons I guess - but I'd hardly call the T-Fex a reliable or optimal anti-tank choice.

 

True. but it takes pressure off the hive guard for nid Anti tank. It also makes a great meatshield for other nid units and makes a great tarpit for assaulting units. The ability to reach out and touch armour is something the nid army lacks. Due to them having a lack of mobility. But each to his own I guess. I think the Tyranofex is quite a good niche unit for the nid army.

[breng77]

THe other thing is the the T-fex has other shooting weapons when you get up close (mostly anti infantry)

[Wildfire]

Where did you see that being aggressive implies CC ?

 

Against Tyranids, the outmost aggressively effiscient weapon we've got is a missile launcher, second is autocannon.

Stay in cover, kill big things with kraks and autocannons shells, little things with heavy bolters and blast missiles.

 

I feel very aggressive with nine Typhoons, even a little sorry for the pretty little beasts full of claws and slime... :)

 

Terminate the wounded with boltpistol and chainsword.

 

And of course don't forget to burn everything after you've won. :tu:

 

Aggression to me means that you're getting in close to do maximum damage. Against 'nids this almost certainly means you can expect to see some assaults.

 

Missiles and autocannons sitting in cover is not agressive, no matter how good the weapon is. That's defensive, and not what he was asking about.

[Badaboom]

Aggression to me means that you're getting in close to do maximum damage. Against 'nids this almost certainly means you can expect to see some assaults.

 

Missiles and autocannons sitting in cover is not agressive, no matter how good the weapon is. That's defensive, and not what he was asking about.

 

Finally someone who understands me...

 

According to my experience, Ork and Tyranid players (or Chaos/Brets in WHFB, for that matter) are the kind of players who assume they´re the hunters, while the other is the prey; playing aggressively against them it´s risky, but allowes you to play a different role if you play your cards well, thus becoming the hunter and confusing both your opponent and his original strategy, forcing him to react to your actions and not the other way around. Well, that´s the plan at least...

[Bartali]

Can I add my voice to the aggresive shooting advocates ?

 

Unless you're specifically tailoring, Marines only really have the firepower to deal with the little bugs at close range (Rapid Fire Bolters, Flamers, Heavy Flamers on Speeders etc). Run TH/SS Terminators to support their little power armoured friends should a big bug come there way.

[breng77]

As a Nid player as well as a marine player I would love to have marines try to assault me most of the time (FNP +FC Blood angels aside). I would be surprised, but happy that my opponent would play into my hands. I would react to the close up fighting of the marines by charging them with stealers, Trygons, Hive Tyrants, and all sorts of other beastiest that marines simply cannot deal with in CC. (outside of TH/SS termies.)

[Badaboom]

I would react to the close up fighting of the marines by charging them with stealers, Trygons, Hive Tyrants, and all sorts of other beastiest that marines simply cannot deal with in CC. (outside of TH/SS termies.)

 

It took me 30 Tactical marines, but they killed a Tyrant, a Genestealer brood and a Carnifex in CC. Plus the Genestealer brood and the Carnifex they obliterated before the charge. Of course Nids have the advantage, but that doesn´t mean an auto-win.

[breng77]

Depends on Brood size and Equipment. If you get paroxisimed and charged by 10 poisoned Genestealers, a Hive tyrant equiped for CC and a carifex similarly armed you are likely Losing 14 marines In the first round of combat. So it all depends.

[Wildfire]

It really depends on a 'nid players build. If he's gone 'zilla, then yeah you don't want to get close with tac squads very often. But if he's got a few mobs of little gribblies and a few MCs, charging can be very good.

 

Orks, outside of nobs, are only really tough in combat when they charge. Take that away, and even tacs can do pretty good against them. Especially if you have bikes or some other type of T5 unit.

[LardO'Blood]

I usually play lists like this and they are really entertaining battles. I advise taking tactical terminators if you want to go aggressive, they can pack a good punch at a range and in close combat. Just keep them away from trygons/hive tyrants/carnifexes with over 2 wounds. Toss in a CML and you have pure win! Having an assault squad to jump over and sweep up any gaunts out of synapses is very useful by the way...

[breng77]

Again this all depends on squad size (for orks 30 boyz will still beat down 10 marines even if the marines charge, since they get 3 attacks each, and have a hidden power claw.) As for little gribblies for tyranids, those would be horagaunts, gaunts, and stealers. Stealers win that combat if the squads are about equal in size. As most likely do Homagaunts (2 A each, at I5 likely poisoned) if they are a large brood. Even Gaunts if supported by a tervigon will hold their own. The final problem becomes that even if you win that combat, then you are likely getting counter charged by something that will kill you.

[Ookami_81]

Where did you see that being aggressive implies CC ?

 

Against Tyranids, the outmost aggressively effiscient weapon we've got is a missile launcher, second is autocannon.

Stay in cover, kill big things with kraks and autocannons shells, little things with heavy bolters and blast missiles.

 

I feel very aggressive with nine Typhoons, even a little sorry for the pretty little beasts full of claws and slime... :P

 

Terminate the wounded with boltpistol and chainsword.

 

And of course don't forget to burn everything after you've won. :P

 

Aggression to me means that you're getting in close to do maximum damage. Against 'nids this almost certainly means you can expect to see some assaults.

 

Missiles and autocannons sitting in cover is not agressive, no matter how good the weapon is. That's defensive, and not what he was asking about.

 

 

I understood, I was just joking. I never had real problems with nids, and I'm not a prey in my games. Typhoons are just here to smash bugs en masse in order to kill MC and weaken big mobs before short range shooting and eventually assault.

Typhoons are not alone in my lists, they're combined together with bike squads, Vindicator and sometimes assault marines.

None of these units are impressive in CC, but they're enough for wiping out a weakened foe.

I like full assault squad with two flamers, a fist and a jump chappy.

I also like, but quite differently use, six bikers with two flamers, a HB AB and a RB captain on bike.

Bikes are not for assault, but you'll be surprised how much they can kill in their volleys before charge.

Added mobility with jump infantry and even more with bikes doesn't really made a "prey army" last time I played nids.

 

As long as you're not stuck in CC, or charged in the open, everything is OK.