Covering all bases

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I've long pondered and wanted to create a list (if only one to aspire towards) that could fight on more or less equal footing with every 40k army without the need to interchange units for better performance.

 

So what do you do if you are preparing to be:

 

Outnumbered

Outgunned

Outfought

Outmaneuvered

Outlasted

 

Sounds almost futile, but then we have to look at this and remember 'hang on as one of the most adaptable armies in 40k shouldnt we stand perhaps the best chance of being able to exploit THEIR weaknesses?' We don't exactly have a set agenda (like shooting tau and fighting orks)

 

Typically if we fight horde we take low strength weapons in large numbers and templates, if against elite infantry we take high strength low AP weaponry, same sort of deal for vehicles. So a rapid fire AP1, S10 template would be ideal for our troops but we (unsurprisingly B)) don't have those to rely on..

 

What would you suggest is the best way to take on every army? I ask this as more of an army synergy type of question, as there is no unit that can cover all bases really (though the vindicator does an admirable attempt)

 

Can we fight all our opponents with 1 single list? Heck are there several lists that can fight all our opponents (marines included) on more or less equal ground?

[chaplain belisarius]

I try to run a take on all comers list with all my armies...its possible! i mostly play 1k games though...

[Grey Mage]

What would you suggest is the best way to take on every army? I ask this as more of an army synergy type of question, as there is no unit that can cover all bases really (though the vindicator does an admirable attempt)

 

Can we fight all our opponents with 1 single list? Heck are there several lists that can fight all our opponents (marines included) on more or less equal ground?

 

Yes, you can. There are many lists who can do this.

 

The problem many people have with this style of list is that you need to think things through alot and resist buying to many toys.

 

You speak of being outnumbered? Concentrate on taking solid, lean, and effective troop choices. That gets you boots on the ground and bolters to take on hordes.

 

You speak of being outgunned? Use quality of fire to take on enemy artillery, use the quantity and quality of your bolters to lay waste to infantry squads- shooty or otherwise. Apply your own firepower to its best effect, and youll be fine.

 

You speak of being outfought? By what? Bloodletters? If you have the advantage in CC, press it. If you do not then thin their ranks with fire before they hit you. As the old adage goes- stab the shooty things, shoot the stabby things.

 

Outmaneuvered? Bring mobility with you. Rhinos, Drop Pods, Speeders, Bikes, Whirlwinds, Raiders, heck even jump infantry- all of these make you faster. If your opponent is faster still then use the appropriate weapon and lock him down tight by destroying those fast elements, or deploy in a supporting fashion to destroy what bonuses he can get from precision movement.

 

Outlasted? Im sorry, but this one does confuse me. The armies with Power Armor are some of the toughest in existance. They are meant to be durable, to have stamina. In what way are you being outlasted by your opponents? This I think is perhaps a learned skill for you then- do not expose your men to more firepower than they can wether unless the risk of death is less than the need for the tactical gain.

 

 

 

There are four main parts of building a balanced list: Firepower, Melee, Speed, Durability. Any given unit should provide two of these things at the least, three is prefered.

 

... more on that in a minute.

[chaplain belisarius]

what grey mage said...:)

 

Troops and numbers are your friend with any army i find (the more fancy stuff you get, the less guys you have)

[Hellios]

The key is to find what the list your fighting against biggest strength is and take it away from them... Orks out number you... but sitting pretty in your land raider gives them problems... now target things that can damage your land raider...

 

Ok so I'm not saying take land raiders (even against orks) my point is if a list is better than yours on all points you made then either you have not taken a list suitable for the level of your foe (I'm going to assume competitive) or your foe has found the holy grail of power gamer lists... and expect that list to be on the interwebs soon and being used at every tourny...

 

Use whatever area you are stronger in to try and take out his advantages...

 

He outnumbers you but you are faster? take on half his army with all of yours... so on and so forth... a well built army can face many foes although you may have to change your game plan for each foe you face.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I include outlasted as something more when fighting other power armour armies. Generally I don't have much game experience, but I was thinking of as many problems marines may encounter when facing enemies. Other power marine armies are tough as nails and so they be able to outlast you.

 

It's easy to look at one enemy and see good counters to that particular army or play style, but every single army and playstyle is a large ask. An army list I recently thought of based partly on what I have:

 

Captain: Relic Blade, Artificer Armour, Storm Bolter (Rides in the Land Raider, works with Tac2 to take on mid-heavy infantry

 

Dreadnought: Lascannons, ML (armed to take out light-medium vehicles primarily, perhaps blow apart a few light infantry squads)

 

AOBR Dreadnought: MM, DCCW, SB (I'm determined to find use for him without a drop pod! Walks with LR and offers a chance to take on vehicles or holds objectives)

 

Tac1: Flamer, ML, Rhino (Aimed at taking out light infantry and vehicles, objective claiming)

Tac2: PF, Meltagun, PC (Rides in Land Raider, targets mid-heavy infantry with captain, light-mid vehicles in a pinch)

Tac3: Plasmagun, MM, Rhino (Aims to hold the midfield and engage heavy infantry and mid-heavy vehicles)

 

Land Speeder Tornado x 2: MM, HF (Takes on hordes of light infantry or heavy vehicles...probably the nastiest heavy vehicle in sight)

 

Land Raider: Lascannons, Heavy Bolter (Sits back and shoots, or makes steady advance, aims for light-mid vehicles and can deposit a tactical and captain)

 

Whirlwind (Sits tight and offers fire on 'problem squads' or objective sites, aiming largely at light infantry)

 

 

So thats 39 models overall, 31 boots on the ground and 8 vehicles. All infantry bar the captain is medium infantry, 5 of those vehicles are light vehicles, 2 medium and 1 heavy. All weapons can kill light infantry, around 5 units for medium-heavy infantry. Light vehicles have 7 threats overall, medium 6 and 5 heavy threats.

 

How would that do against multiple foes? Am I along the right lines there? Is it drastically awful? I'm not looking at the list itself per se, more the ideology of taking on many many foes. Could something like this turn its hands to armies such as Eldar, Ork Mobs, Tank heavy IG, Drop Pod armies etc....

 

Note: I appreciate that against EVERY army you'll have to play to their weaknesses and your strengths. This requires the list to take reasonable additions capable of taking out the threats. It'll need to shoot the choppy and chop the shooty. Us marines can do that unlike many armies who have a 'favoured area'

[Zynk Kaladin]

I think list building is half of what you need to take on any opponent. The other half is how you use that list on the table. Try to make a list that will allow for more options when taking out certain units. Play to each of your opponents weaknesses and remember, objectives are key. You don't NEED to wipe out your enemy (generally tailored lists), just claim objectives and prevent them from claiming any.

[Grey Mage]

Well, for the list above, Id drop the TLLC off your dread, and the ML, in return for EA on both dreads an heavy flamers on both dreads, and an autocannon.

 

Id also switch the locations of your plasmacannon and your multimelta. The MM is going to be closer to the enemy lines in most cases, and the PC synergises well with the PG in hunting heavy infantry and light vehicles. Specializing with a particular squad isnt a liability- as long as they still have options *hunting light infantry, heavy infantry and light vehicles is 3 solid and broad options* and can increase their effectiveness.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I prefer a librarian for all comers. Psychic hood and null zone works wonders against any opponent, imo.

 

I'd personally run 2x2 typhoons and put a squadron on each edge of my side of the table. They're such a threat to the side armor of vehicles and can put some wounds on MCs. MM/HF speeders are gold in all comers, though. I'd take a squadron of 2 (yea, they're probably better individually) just to pop or block that assault terminator toting land raider most marine players are bound to have. You can also use them obviously, for infantry, or putting another wound on a MC.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Well a librarian IS more logical in an all comers...actually I think the Libby is one thing that benefits the army more so than most other marine HQs. Personally i'd probably stick with the captain out of choice however.

 

I get your point grey mage, the tacticals which are more focussed (such as M, MM and PG, PC) can still operate in more or less the same target bands and compliment each other better. I'll admit that a rifleman dreadnought is perhaps a better choice than the TLLC/ML dread, even if its a half rifleman AND I agree with the heavy flamer addition to the Melta makes it brutally effective against a myriad of foes! I'd prefer it with the heavy flamer, but the storm bolter is annoyingly attached to the poor AOBR dread who I want to find a use for....

 

I'm surprised noone suggested changing the WW to Thuderfire, but I think the WW is a tad more survivable and more mobile even if it reduces the firepower..plus its cheaper!

 

 

Anyway, some good points raised and I agree! ^_^ Thanks for the feedback!

[Mysticaria]

In 40k, with the point sytstem to balance things, you should never encounter an enemy that is better than you are in every phase of the game. If the enemy has you outnumbered, your troops are probably better. If the enemy can outshoot you, then your troops can probably beat them in close combat. Find out where your advantage is, and play to that style. If you take a balanced list, you should have no problems. In fact, that is one of the main draws to SM in my opinion...the fact that by being balanced we can have lots of interesting games (some close combat, some shooting, never the same game twice)...

 

Space Marines are able to adapt any style and be effective, so the matchup should tell you whether you need to be the shooty (hence keep the range open, manuever, shoot) or the assaulty (use cover, close distance, assault). So yeah, it is possible to take on all comers....especially if you have some units that are good in shooting and assault. Find out what your strength is in the given matchup and play to that. Identify your weakness and try to limit it. The "Way of the Water Warrior" threads embody this concept fairly well if you ask me.

 

The only time you get in trouble is when you try to play the same type of game that your opponent is better at. I.e. playing a shooty SM army against a shooty IG army. Or playing assaulty versus an all-CC Tyranid army... Even in these matchups one army has the shooting advantage and one has the assault advantage. Fail to identify that... and fail to adapt your game plan... and you are leading towards a losing game plan. One example of this that I saw was from a fairly beginner player in a tournament. It was Grey Knights versus Tyranids. The GK player was used to playing against SM and always closed to assault. However, all his guys had storm bolters and even thought they were good at close combat, they really had an advantage over the Tyranids in shooting. Well, he closed and ended up losing a close game, but could have easily won if he would have identified that in this matchup his troops were more shooty and played to that style.

 

-Myst

[Grey Mage]

I'd prefer it with the heavy flamer, but the storm bolter is annoyingly attached to the poor AOBR dread who I want to find a use for....

Do what I did- clip if off, attach as flamer in its place.

[Tanhausen]

Quite a bit said already but... yeah, all of us who carry "all comers" lists want to think we can put up a fight and even win vs most or all the armies we face.

 

Again, its more about enviroment knowledge (both knowing your BRB/codex AND what is most likely to come up in your local area) than simply "how tough a list is".

 

No list is "push the red button, there goes my win". Some are easier to "master" due to beeing extremely good in one aspect (usually either Alpha strike shooting or extremely good CC units such as Crushers in Juggernoughts) but if you prevent that aspect, they are doomed.

 

For example: if you are facing the always praised Leafblower (Imperial Guard with a trillion templates that will crush you turn 1) and you go first... guess what will happen to him when his shooting fase arrives and finds that 80% of his tanks can't shoot (not destroyed, just stunned)... and in turn 2 your army arrives to CC: they are in trouble.

 

Obviously, if a list is able to be tough in all aspects (shooting, CC, pyskers, etc.) AND is cheap... you have it a lot easier than other codex.

 

My opinion, anyhow :cuss

[Jackelope King]

There are four main parts of building a balanced list: Firepower, Melee, Speed, Durability. Any given unit should provide two of these things at the least, three is prefered.

There's some wisdom here, but let's go even more basic for a second.

 

Threats win games. Plain and simple. When you have more threats than the other guy can handle, you are winning. This fact becomes apparent once you've successfully saturated one aspect of the enemy's capacity to handle threats (the most basic example being spamming so much mech that the other guy doesn't have enough anti-tank to keep up), and ideally when you've reduced the utility of another aspect of the enemy's weaponry (sticking with mech for a moment, making his anti-infantry weapons useless). We've all had that choking feeling when we look across the table and see that this is just lost, that we can't handle what the enemy still has over there. This is how you win games of 40k (or more technically, it's how you make the other guy lose 40k.

 

Threats. Saturation of threats. This is our foundation.

 

We now need to look at the quality of the threats we put on the table. If we do nothing but spam 5-man tactical squads, 5-man assault squads, Tech-Marines and Servitors... well, numbers matter, but they're not the only part of it. On the other hand, if you could take nothing but squads of TH/SS Terminators in Land Raiders and spam those, you'd threaten just about everything, right?

 

Analyze for a moment the four types of threats that you can present:

1. Offense: A theat's ability to remove enemy threats from play. Commonly known as "Killiness", "Choppiness", or "Shootiness".
   
2. Interference: A threat's ability to deny the enemy use of a threat, without necessarily removing that threat. Suppressing fire (looking to glance enemy tanks to silence their guns), screening/speed bumps to slow incoming enemy assault specialists, or even tying up an enemy threat in combat with a tarpit unit.
   
3. Support: A threat's ability to act as a force-multiplier. The obvious examples here include a Blood Angels Sanguinary Priest. Support threats make your other threats... well... more threatening.
   
4. Scoring: An odd threat, and one that only matters after the game ends, and it determines the final score.
   

The basic tenet should be "Use offense to kill what you can, interfere with what you have to, support everyone, and be ready to score at the end of turn 5."

 

There's a lot more that can be said on this, and maybe I'll write up a series of short articles on this in the near future, but that's enough for one thread.

 

Looking at Codex: Space Marines in particular, we have a few options for how to build an all-comers list based on these tenets. We can go Mech, we can go Bikes, we can go Drop Pods. Mech can take midfield or hold backfield (with las/plas razorback spam). Bikers try to swing midfield to the enemy backfield with mobility as their key advantage. Drop Pods always deploy second, and hope that they always get the first turn, then keep their presence strong with a constant stream of reinforcements.

 

Start out any list by analyzing how every unit you want to include will be a threat. And more importantly, what types of units will it threaten? And especially at high points-value games, how will you weather first turn? Cover your bases as to how you'll deal with mech (we get Melta... don't forget to take a heaping helping of it), MCs, and exposed infantry. Whenever possible take units that have duality, and can threaten vastly different types of enemy units easily (units that can take Autocannons and Missile Launchers of various flavors are favorites here, as these two weapons threaten everything from light mech to MCs to exposed infantry). After that, you want more shots, not less. Every time you roll a die, you have a chance to deal a wound. If you hit a unit with ten shots, that's 10 chances to wound. If you only shoot it once... that's only one chance to wound.

 

Then, when game time comes, use your advantages to rob the enemy of his. Deploy in a refused flank against a horde army and only fight half of the enemy force. Use suppressive fire to run interference against a shooty mech army like Mechdar. Rush into assault against forces like Tau and Imperial Guard, but don't forget to screen your own tanks from enemy fast melta when it's present. This is where the aforementioned "duality" comes into play. No Rhinos for you to pop with your autocannon? Turn it around to shoot at the Tyranid Big Bugs. No Big Bugs left? You've got two shots into the little ones then. At every opportunity, deny the enemy an advantage, present more threats than he's capable of handling, and maintain pressure.

 

Remember, those threats of yours win games. Gameplay is all about applying them appropriately.

 

...

 

Personally, I find that all-comers lists are more rewarding to play with, and I enjoy being able to get a game started faster, with less set-up time. I also like being able to build my skills with an army and really master it.

[chaplain belisarius]

I have a rough 1k all comers list which works ok...(saw it in ravendoves sons of orar thread and adapted it slightly to suit my needs)

 

librarian.

 

2 tactical squads with lascannon and meltagun. combat squadded. 2 rhinos.

 

2 melta attack bikes.

 

1 land speeder typhoon-heavy bolter, typhoon launcher.

 

1 land speeder typhoon-as above.

 

2 predator destructors-heavy bolters, autocannon.

 

i believe i have a spare ten points too...

 

this generally covers all the bases for casual games...hope it helped (and thank you ravendove!)

 

:D

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Very good points all, I guess the question is more or less answered. Thank you all for the very helpful feedback!