Varnishing - 'frosting' problem

[Brother_Ovis]

Hello brothers,

 

Having painted some Raven Guard minis (important, as they are black, and black is not a forgiving colour when dabbing on it) I've decided to cover them with some matt varnish... I was advised to use Army Painter Anti Shine. Well I did that on first batch of minis - chaplain and some assault marines. I sprayed them outside (to avoid the smell) and it was raining a little. While the chaplain came out looking fine, the assaulters looked like they were taken right out of some deep freeze - had this nasty blueish-grey residue on them... The Internets told me that it's because of wrong atmospheric conditions while spraying (high humidity) and to spray them again. I did that and while it helped a bit, the effect was still far from desired (desired effect was deep, velvety black surface).

 

I went to experiment with varnishing and found myself totally dumbfounded.

 

Army Painter spray on my black marines leaves some of this frosty residue even in best working conditions. Furthermore it covers the minis in myriad of really tiny droplets, making them kind of coarse to touch. So I tried some brushed varnishes - namely Vallejo Matt, and the problem still persists. I varnish mostly transfers, so it's matt varnish on gloss varnish, and while the gloss one looks great all the time, the matt brushed on the gloss gets frosted every darn time, no matter how well I shake and stir it before painting, no matter how I dilute it, how carefully I brush it on etc.

 

Right now I've settled to covering the frosting with some black wash, as I'm dealing with small surfaces (shoulder pads mostly) but it does not really solve the problem.

 

What am I doing wrong, brothers?

[winterdyne]

Black (in fact dark colours in general) will never matt down nicely; It'll always appear slightly grey compared to a gloss or satin finish. You'll end up relying on contrast tricks paintwork wise to trick the eye if you want it dead flat - light, sharp highlights make the base look blacker (which is why we use sharp highlights on black). For gaming, easiest is to use a satin varnish.

 

This said, once the frosting has been covered by another layer of varnish and not eradicated, you're actually looking at small air bubbles in the varnish which produces the same effect as silvering. Only choices are to cut the varnish (sometimes possible) with some sort of solvent, freeing it up and hopefully preserve the mini or strip and repaint the mini, which is frankly quicker and easier in a lot of situations.

[Kronk]

I sprayed them outside (to avoid the smell) and it was raining a little.

 

I'm not sure if this is 100% of your problem, but it's one culprit. Humidity does not go well with spray on primers or the matte finish.

 

If the humidity is over 50%, I don't spray anything. So, living in Houston, I've had to wait weeks on progressing/finishing a unit as I wait for the humidity to fall.

 

Another reason for the tiny droplets is spraying too close to the model. I spray in short bursts, going back and forth over the model, being careful not to hold the spray too long in one position or getting too close.

[Brother Nihm]

What am I doing wrong, brothers?

Short answer, it's not necessarily you. It could be 1. A bad batch, 2. you didn't shake the can for 3-5 minutes (seriously), 3. air humidity (rain is not good weather to spray in), etc.

 

That being said,

Here's how you can potentially fix it, courtesy of Oni:

 

link

[Red Fury]

I had the same problem when I got half way through a can of Army Painter brand Matt Varnish. The finish was a bit frosty and had the occasional bigger white spot. Unfortunately, this happened to me while spraying 3 tanks that I had painted and I had NO desire to start all over. I just picked off the bigger white dots with a knife and called it good, the frosting isn't that severe.

 

Anyway, I have thrown that can away and have used Armory Brand exclusively since then without another problem. http://www.thewarstore.com/armoryspraypaints.html

 

That Micro Flat stuff looks like it may be worth trying if the frosting is that bad. Good to know.

[Brother_Ovis]

Thanks for your replys, but you all miss one point ;) I've read all about spraying (unfortunately only after the frosting incident, but still) and I know about correct distances, humidity, temperature and really long shaking.

 

What bothers me more is the frosting problem when applying matt Vallejo varnish with a brush. Brushing the varnish on came up many times in discussions about frosting and was said to be absolutely frosting-free solution. Well, it isn't ;) As I said, I use varnish mostly with transfers, so it's gloss layer first (which applies with no problems whatsoever) then goes the transfer, then goes matt varnish - and it always has this blueish smudges...

 

I've read and heard that it's because of the gloss surface being not really, really smooth, so I've started applying it diluted with some acrylic paint thinner - to no effect. Some people at a hobby store told me that it's because I didn't stir the varnish enough and the carrier remains separated from the "pigment", resulting in an uneven surface - so I've shaken and stirred it real well and IT STILL SMUDGES.

 

AFAIK Vallejo make good quality stuff, so I don't expect it to be a case of faulty varnish - there is something I must be doing wrong...

[madscuzzy]

Matt varnish does this, regardless of brand, regardless of batch. The same spray can can work well this week and frost up the next. Before spraying, you should test to see if the varnish frosts up, if it does, well then don't use that spray can. I have about 3 cans of varnish and I randomly pick one to test.

 

Almost all paint starts off with a gloss base. Matt medium is added in to break up the glossiness of it through chemical reaction. Should the reaction not be complete is when you see frosting. Gloss varnish can be sprayed over a frosted model in hopes to reactivate the varnish to restart the chemical process with the new layer of varnish as spray ons are thinner based. It may help. This will not work with water based varnishes.

 

Spraying too closely will give globules of spray and make it very thick. Spraying too far will result in a fuzzy-ish surface as the spray traps dust particles in the air and/or dries before it hits the model.

 

Humidity can cause some issues, but is not the only culprit and can be circumvented. I live near the equator and I can't run away from humidity and I can spray models fine.

[Brother Valerius]

Madscuzzy doesn't even cover the full, horrifying truth. Matte spray can work fine on one model, and frost up on the next one. It happened to me, and to be honest I'm not using matte spray any more. When it's down to that level of unpredictability, it's too much of a risk to a lot of hard work to use that stuff.

[Brother_Ovis]

Madscuzzy doesn't even cover the full, horrifying truth. Matte spray can work fine on one model, and frost up on the next one. It happened to me, and to be honest I'm not using matte spray any more. When it's down to that level of unpredictability, it's too much of a risk to a lot of hard work to use that stuff.

 

Yes exactly, that's what happened to me that first time I opened the spray can... Like I said, I was spraying the chaplain and some assault marines outside while it was raining - the chaplain looks really fine, but the assault marines after some unsuccesful attempts to remove the frosting went to the solvent jar... I even started to suspect it may have something to do with the kind of surface on the model - the chaplain was metal, the marines plastic.

 

Just as you I've ditched the spray can and learned to deal without it. And quite honestly - I like the raw, unvarnished surfaces better, they tend to look crispier to me.

[madscuzzy]

I do do that too, as in leave models unpainted. GW has mentioned that they do do it too. At the end of the day, we need to see what we want to use the varnish for.

 

Varnish DOESN'T prevent chipping. Models will chip regardless of whether they are varnished or not. It can help by making the skin a little harder, like MnMs, but if the primer or paint doesn't adhere properly it'll still chip.

 

More likely than not, the final reason we varnish our models (other than to make it look matte) it is for handling. Some paints, such as VGC do wear off or rub off quite readily when playing, so varnish can help to keep it from rubbing off easily. If you are comfy having to repaint your models constantly then the choice to varnish or not is yours.

 

If you really want the matte or dull finish, then you may look at other investments, such as paint on varnish, or airbrushing your varnish on (no propellant means less fiddly).