slightly irritated renegades

[Tzimisce169]

Greetings all,

 

I'd like to start a discussion regarding the latest edition of Codex Chaos Marines. All thats written below are my own opinions

 

As a long time fan of everything chaotic I was less than happy to find that all of the flavour and hatred has been taken out of the codex.

 

The chaos gods have appeared to put aside their millenia of rivallry and now we see such disgusting armies as the Lash of Nurgle. (2 Daemon princes of slaanesh w Lash & as many Plague marines as possible for the points)

 

My lovingly converted Noisemarine Havocs are now gathering dust on the shelf. Gifts of chaos have gone straight out of the window. Summoned GENERIC daemons and no legion specific rules.

 

It seems that the chaos army is now full of disgruntled youngsters rather than 10k year old traitors aiming a burning middle finger at the golden throne.

 

If, as we are told, the new generation of chaos marines are "ex-loyalist", why can they not take at least some of the gear from codex space marines. As soon as they go bad every landspeeder, razorback and land raider variant get blown up and thrown in the bin.

 

All in all, I'm just not feeling the chaos part of the codex and the good parts about it do not outweigh the questions in my head.

 

Does anyone else feel the same or am I alone in this one?

[mannstein]

You aren't alone, there was a fifty page rant thread about this codex when it came out....

[Wrath of Terra]

I've been there. I think it was in 3rd ed. when they finally brought out Codex Chaos and much to my horror so much was depowered and loads of the flavour was just gone and the whole thing was just "generic" Chaos. I was quite annoyed. But then for the next Codex Chaos after that they went the other way and it was more Chaotic and certain aspects of it were quite overpowered.

 

I haven't played in years but seems like some things never change!

[NightrawenII]

Lol, no. Most of the Chaos-veterans are in agreement with you. However, there is very good quote... lets see if I can reproduce it right...

"Do you want a good codex? You shouldn't have betrayed the Emperor!"

[Reldn]

No, you are definitely not alone in this. I'm far from a veteran by any means, but, I still detest the current Chaos 'dex. It made me give up on my Thousand Sons army...That and assembling the damn rubrics. *shudders* This codex is more like: "Chaos Space Marines: Black Legion & Warbands".

[Dràyhèn]

Good news is that our wait is over halfway now, because ours and that of Eldar's are soon to be the oldest codices. A year or a year and little more and our new, shiny codex probably hangs up there, just out of reach. Two years at worst.

[.Torch.]

I totally agree! It ruined my chaos army :/

[Allerka]

I like it because the Renegade Chapter I came up with within its constrains is pretty nice and I love how the fluff came out, but certainly I can understand how longtime Legion players are less than satisfied. Luckily there's rumors of a Cult Legions codex, or just an update to the current one. In the meantime, Mike Brandt, organizer of the NOVA Open tournament/convention, has a codex rebalancing project going over at his blog, Whiskey & 40K, starting with C:CSM. While it would fall under the house rules category, it's a pretty solid effort to give a lot of the flavor back to the codex while still remaining highly balanced.

[Tzimisce169]

I'm glad i'm not alone then. I thought i was turning into a whiny little bitch.

 

On the plus side, given that each codex has turned the relevant army into the new dominant power in 40k, the next codex chaos should ooze pure awesomeness.

 

Just 1 more thing though: Abaddon screwed up 13 Black crusades. THIRTEEN! The only reason he has not been turned into a spawn is cos he's Horus' little boy. Next time there is a Black Crusade it would be nice for him to gain a serious foothold in the imperium.

[Vash113]

Just 1 more thing though: Abaddon screwed up 13 Black crusades. THIRTEEN! The only reason he has not been turned into a spawn is cos he's Horus' little boy. Next time there is a Black Crusade it would be nice for him to gain a serious foothold in the imperium.

 

Or for him to finally get replaced. But its not going to happen either way as the 40k time line is completely stalled.

[Lynnean]

the codex is the reason i didn't continue my chaos army.

the fun was totally ruined for me :lol:

 

nowadays i play BA, but i'd love to see a Chaos Codex update.

[Rik Riorik]

I haven't enjoyed the new Codex that much either. I like the new Summoned Daemons, but to some extent it does feel like a seperation between Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons was a bit premature as especially Chaos Daemons don't really have enough units to feel like a more than a glorified Necrons list. As a result the Marines have lost a lot of flavour from its selections without really gaining anything new to make up for it. And that's not even to mention the loss of Legion specific rules and the fact that one of the big selling points to me; that you could make highly customisable HQ units that could trump most armies' HQs, including Space Marines, by some margin. You still can today, but they aren't as good and they definetly lack any and all flavour.

[caboosebe]

Good news is that our wait is over halfway now, because ours and that of Eldar's are soon to be the oldest codices. A year or a year and little more and our new, shiny codex probably hangs up there, just out of reach. Two years at worst.

Euh?

from oldest till CSM

Necrons : 2002

Daemonhunters : 2003

Witch Hunters : 2004

Black Templars: 2005

Tau: 2006

Eldar: 2006

Dark Angels: 2007 (half year before csm)

Chaos Space Marines: 2007.

 

 

2 years at worst? ;) 2 years at best my friend :P

[Gree]

Just 1 more thing though: Abaddon screwed up 13 Black crusades. THIRTEEN! The only reason he has not been turned into a spawn is cos he's Horus' little boy.

 

How has he screwed up? The First was turned back with only the death of a Primarch, the Second was turned back as well, (although the second Crusade's objectives were unknown) the 12th's objective was to get the Blackstones in the Gothic Sector. It oculd be considered a win, but was more of a draw (Abaddon was not really after the Gothic Sector) and the 13th currently is still rather ongoing with Chaos taking a huge slice of the worlds in the Cadian sector.

 

The rest of the Crusades are in fact quite vague as to the battles fought, the tactics used, or Abaddon's objectives. We can't say Abaddon ''screwed them up'' when we know so little about the Crusades.

 

Next time there is a Black Crusade it would be nice for him to gain a serious foothold in the imperium.

 

He already has one. The Eye of Terror Newsletter talks about how he has a serious foothold.

 

Abaddon’s hordes have gained a foothold upon the worlds of Man, and none can see them being repelled for many years to come....................

 

The Thirteenth Black Crusade has broken the Imperium’s hold upon the Cadian Gate- perhaps forever. The raging tempest of the Eye of Terror has surged forth, engulfing those worlds lost to Chaos. The Imperium no longer bars the gate to the Eye, only a small channel remains through which Imperial Navy vessels may pass to bring aid to the desperate forces upon Cadia

 

Death by a Thousand Cuts Newsletter.

 

Many bastions have fallen to the forces of Chaos and may never be recovered, the warp storms surrounding the Eye have expanded to engulf whole systems. The fighting on others could continue for decades to come. With the worlds captured the forces of Disorder are now positioned to launch attacks info mofe Imperial worlds. The Cadian Gate may not be open to the forces of Chaos, but their minions are over the walls in unprecedented numbers.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

As a long time fan of everything chaotic I was less than happy to find that all of the flavour and hatred has been taken out of the codex.

 

The chaos gods have appeared to put aside their millenia of rivallry and now we see such disgusting armies as the Lash of Nurgle. (2 Daemon princes of slaanesh w Lash & as many Plague marines as possible for the points)

 

My lovingly converted Noisemarine Havocs are now gathering dust on the shelf. Gifts of chaos have gone straight out of the window. Summoned GENERIC daemons and no legion specific rules.

 

It seems that the chaos army is now full of disgruntled youngsters rather than 10k year old traitors aiming a burning middle finger at the golden throne.

 

If, as we are told, the new generation of chaos marines are "ex-loyalist", why can they not take at least some of the gear from codex space marines. As soon as they go bad every landspeeder, razorback and land raider variant get blown up and thrown in the bin.

 

All in all, I'm just not feeling the chaos part of the codex and the good parts about it do not outweigh the questions in my head.

 

Does anyone else feel the same or am I alone in this one?

*Sigh* Old topic is Old.

 

Either adapt with the Dex, or just shelve them until the next edition. My Iron Warriors took a hit (glad that I decided NOT to build my converted Basilisks), but now I play them as best I can with the Dex. I know others who have shelved Chaos till the next Dex, I have done the same with Tau (Who suck SUPER HARD since the latest Rulebook. You think Chaos lost out? Look at how much of Tau wargear "ignores target priority", and see how we weep.)

[Dràyhèn]

Good news is that our wait is over halfway now, because ours and that of Eldar's are soon to be the oldest codices. A year or a year and little more and our new, shiny codex probably hangs up there, just out of reach. Two years at worst.

Euh?

from oldest till CSM

Necrons : 2002

Daemonhunters : 2003

Witch Hunters : 2004

Black Templars: 2005

Tau: 2006

Eldar: 2006

Dark Angels: 2007 (half year before csm)

Chaos Space Marines: 2007.

 

 

2 years at worst? :lol: 2 years at best my friend ;)

Well, maybe I was a little bit too optimistic 'bout that, I admit. ;)

It's still not that long anymore, seeing as there's been chatter 'bout all those factions being updated sooner or later now, within these two years from what I've seen. Only Eldar & Dark Angels haven't even been hinted at.

[TheDarkApostle]

How has he screwed up? The First was turned back with only the death of a Primarch, the Second was turned back as well, (although the second Crusade's objectives were unknown) the 12th's objective was to get the Blackstones in the Gothic Sector. It oculd be considered a win, but was more of a draw (Abaddon was not really after the Gothic Sector) and the 13th currently is still rather ongoing with Chaos taking a huge slice of the worlds in the Cadian sector.

 

The rest of the Crusades are in fact quite vague as to the battles fought, the tactics used, or Abaddon's objectives. We can't say Abaddon ''screwed them up'' when we know so little about the Crusades.

The first Crusade apparently carried the main objective of securing Drachn'nyen. The second was more of a test of the Imperium's improved defenses from what I've gathered, and most of the others as well up to the 11'th Crusade, the Ghost War, have been little more than tests of various things. The Ghost War however had the objective the Hand of Night which he acquired, and then came the 12'th Crusade, the Gothic Wars, where he seized the Blackstone fortresses as was his intention, then came the 13'th Black Crusade where he seized a foothold and broke Cadia. Just as he intended.

 

The Liber Chaotica covers the crusades briefly.

 

TDA

[Gree]

How has he screwed up? The First was turned back with only the death of a Primarch, the Second was turned back as well, (although the second Crusade's objectives were unknown) the 12th's objective was to get the Blackstones in the Gothic Sector. It oculd be considered a win, but was more of a draw (Abaddon was not really after the Gothic Sector) and the 13th currently is still rather ongoing with Chaos taking a huge slice of the worlds in the Cadian sector.

 

The rest of the Crusades are in fact quite vague as to the battles fought, the tactics used, or Abaddon's objectives. We can't say Abaddon ''screwed them up'' when we know so little about the Crusades.

The first Crusade apparently carried the main objective of securing Drachn'nyen. The second was more of a test of the Imperium's improved defenses from what I've gathered, and most of the others as well up to the 11'th Crusade, the Ghost War, have been little more than tests of various things. The Ghost War however had the objective the Hand of Night which he acquired, and then came the 12'th Crusade, the Gothic Wars, where he seized the Blackstone fortresses as was his intention, then came the 13'th Black Crusade where he seized a foothold and broke Cadia. Just as he intended.

 

The Liber Chaotica covers the crusades briefly.

 

TDA

 

Well we know that, however exact details for each of the Crusades. Like I mean, real in-depth details, are lacking.

[maverike_prime]

Just 1 more thing though: Abaddon screwed up 13 Black crusades. THIRTEEN! The only reason he has not been turned into a spawn is cos he's Horus' little boy. Next time there is a Black Crusade it would be nice for him to gain a serious foothold in the imperium.

 

Sorry had to get a clarification here: How exactly did Abaddon not gain a foot hold in the last one? 90% of the entire Cadian sector is under Chaos control and an unending war on a scale not far removed from Armageddon itself rages on Cadia Prime. Despite a full Assignation Elimination team being assigned to the task, Abaddon still lives AND is in command of the Planet Killer and at least 2 Black Stone Fortressess with another having been destroyed and the fourth being lost in the warp after Eldrad merged with it. And end results asside, please remember that Abaddon is the only character in the 40k fluff to not only have combined the whole of Chaotic forces into a single coherent force, but to have done it multiple times for extended periods. The protegee of Horus he may be, but for my money the student has vastly outclassed the mentor. Even Horus failed to break the Imperium and he had everything going for him, surprise, tactical awareness, command of 9 Space Marine Legions (That's what? close to 1,000,000 Space marines?), time (The Chaos Gods cleared his way through the warp), hell he even managed to be on command of his enemies Legions before the attacks were launched (The whole the Ultramarines, the largest Legion outside of the Luna Wolves being on the far side of nothingness playing Footsie with the world bearers while Horus assaulted earth), and if the Horus Heresy art books are to be considered Cannon, Horus still became nothing but a pawn to Chaos. He didn't command the battles, he was being used. As far as I've seen, Abaddon has accrued power comparable to Horus himself and still maintains his own plans.

[NightrawenII]

The first Crusade apparently carried the main objective of securing Drachn'nyen.

Speculation at best, don't tell me the Abaddon lead several legions against Imperium to just claim a single sword. ;)

 

2nd Black Crusade was failed attack at the Defences of Cadia.

3rd Black Crusade is unknown.

4th Balck Crusade was defeated at the El'Phanor. (Abaddon had learnt well from his last two Black Crusades and besieged the walls of Cadia while taking the bulk of his forces out into the wilds of the Segmentum Obscurus.)

 

 

So the Abaddon screwed up at least 3 Black Crusades.

[Gree]

Speculation at best, don't tell me the Abaddon lead several legions against Imperium to just claim a single sword. ;)

 

Why not? Possesion of Drach'nyen would bring him even more support and fear among the Traitor Legions.

 

2nd Black Crusade was failed attack at the Defences of Cadia.

 

What were Abaddon's objectives or tactics employed?

 

4th Balck Crusade was defeated at the El'Phanor. (Abaddon had learnt well from his last two Black Crusades and besieged the walls of Cadia while taking the bulk of his forces out into the wilds of the Segmentum Obscurus.)

 

Where did it say it was defeated at El'Phanor, I recall Abaddon's Heroes and Villians article talking about him destroying the Kromarch's Fortress.

 

And we still don't know his objectives or plans there. We don't know the exact outcome or what Abaddon managed to accomplish.

 

So the Abaddon screwed up at least 3 Black Crusades.

 

Not quite. Again, lack of information from the Chaos viewpoint makes it hard to say that statement.

[Black Hand]

Given that the Imperium has invested a huge amount of military power and resources in making sure that the Eye of Terror is effectively closed, I think Abaddon's armies can be forgiven for not bursting through it like a wet paper bag. The Cadian Gate is one of the most fortified areas in the IoM, bar the Sol system, if I recall correctly.

[the jeske]

you do know that cadia was taken because of 1 guy using 1 card he got at a close event that wasnt even 40+ people sized ?

not that it changes its legality or anything , but still in the end it looks like that . the time line will not move , we still stand at the end of cadia and considering this was suppose to be the huge break through for chaos , then we kind of a failed .

[Black Hand]

I am aware of the campaign, yes. Also, you happen to be wrong about the timeline not moving; it is, just so damn slowly that nobody has noticed. Technically, the game's universe is now in the very early stages of the 42nd millenium. I also don't really see how gaining a foothold of 90% of the Cadian sector can possibly be counted as a fail for Chaos. If anything, it's now a permanent fail for the Imperium, as they've now lost the majority of a valuable sector and since the timeline won't advance anywhere any time soon, they are unlikely to win it back.

[Brother Delias]

On a slight note of complete failure of codex story material.. has anyone read the SM codex through yet?? Apparently the Iron Hands are no longer a founding chapter... WTH???

 

Definitly made me stop playing SM... I loved playing the cyborg boys...